Big Oil: ‘Together, We Can’ Ignore Climate Change»

[RedEarth]

The American Petroleum Institute (API), the trade organization for the oil and natural gas industry, has just begun running a feel-good commercial that argues “America’s future” lies in drilling out domestic reserves of oil and natural gas off our coasts, in our western lands, and in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Here’s what the ad says:

Oil and natural gas powered the past. But the future? Fact is, a growing world will require more. 45% more by 2030, along with greatly expanding alternatives. We have substantial oil and natural gas resources right here. Enough to power 60 million cars and heat 160 million households for 60 years. With advanced technology and smart policies, together we can secure America’s future. Log on to learn more.

Watch it here..........

http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/04/25/big-oil-future/

[Zachstar]

1. I hate to say it but we are going to have to make a trade here.

We can say whatever and let energy prices climb so high that people start to die at greater rates while poverty rates explode.

Or

We take away every tax incentive and sub for oil to invest in renewables while letting them drill more to help stop this epic climb in oil prices.

That is right the earth is going to suffer more while we adapt but the simple fact is renewables are not coming online nearly fast enough to stare away massive starvation. They need more funds that we don't have because fucker Bush spent every last dime of reserve funds on the useless fucking war.

So we are going to have to trade or we are going to have to accept depression in my view.

[whosinpower]

2. the future?

the future won't be powered by oil or gas. Those are finite resources, best left alone, and instead exploring other alternative energy sources....

60 years is not long. not long at all. Better to find ways for homes to be off grid, self sufficient in ways that are not harmful to the environment - geothermal heating, wind energy, solar power - and plug in cars.

Just my opinion - not that it is worth much.

[Zachstar]

3. Only small communities have the ability to put a serious dent in grid use.

For instance let us say the year is 2025 and several fusion reactors are online.

Considering each fusion reactor costs WELL over 10-20 million a pop small communities will not be able to afford them.

Yet the small communities have to have long lines going into their town which puts insane amounts of strain on the system due to the large distances involved.

So those towns instead can install wind and solar systems in an open area outside of town and run lower voltage lines into town to run the community.

However for cities and other areas that are not idea for on site generation there has to be a grid in place so the grid is never going away.

As for 60 years I think it is pretty safe to say we will have solved the climate crisis or we will be dead because of massive climate change leading to war and starvation.

Fusion is coming but until then we HAVE to do something!

[depakid]

4. "Fusion is coming"

Fusion has been 20 years away my entire life- in fact, most peoples' entire lives.

When looking at future possibilities like fusion (or other technological fixes and corpucopian fallacies) alongside current policy choices, I find that a simple game theory analysis helps to put things into perspective:



Here's payoff matrix:



Now, if one chooses the game strategy dubbed "maxi-min," where we choose policies that maximize our least-worst outcomes, we'd want to assume a precautionary approach to resource use and the environment.

That way, the worst that could happen is relatively speaking- "good." If we choose to continue to grow and consume exponentially, hoping for some technological marvel- it could be that we'll live in Star Trek world- though the more likely result is much less pleasant- and would happen far sooner than we'd prefer.

[Zachstar]

6. LoL what a bunch of junk.

And it looks to be more of an anti-future view (OH NOES ROBOTS WILL DO ALL THE WORK AND HUMANS WILL DO NOTHING!111!)

The fact is that we are not going to stop growing we are not suddenly going to say (Oh no the earth climate is collapsing let us stop driving a tank to school!)

So you have to assume that we NEED the technology and have to accept that until we get it there is going to be massive issues?

Are we going to stop china from growing? No

Are we going to stop India from growing? No

Are we going to stop Russian from growing? No

Are we going to stop Africa from growing? No




---------

And a little optimism for fusion wont kill you. There is mountains of research (Which is why is has taken this long to get to this point) and the technology has advanced to the point where net gain fusion is feasible.

Now if this works we can have fusion in a decade or two.

http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/

http://www.emc2fusion.org/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606

Otherwise the other route will likely be ready by 2030 but fusion is not impossible and it is disappointing that people are so quick to dismiss it these days.

[depakid]

8. I prefer realistic analysis to ignorance and faith based "arguments"

In fact, both the populations AND economies WILL stop growing- due to material resource depletion and declining energy production.

One way or another. That's the inevitable consequence of the laws of thermodynamics.

The ONLY questions are how, when and what policy choices might ameliorate the consequences.

Of course, there are always those who choose to deny natural laws- and believe that manna from heaven will save them.

I suspect that's what some of the people who built these were thinking:



and these:



but probably not these:

http://www.travelaboutinc.com/images/9-Canyon%20de%20Chelly,%20Arizona.jpg

[Zachstar]

9. By the time things stop growing due to lack of resources many millions will be dead.

Yet some seem to find nothing wrong with idea which is sickening.

I do not buy into the "Nature will save us" idea. There is nothing right about people perishing due to lack of supplies.

Burnt out cities

Massive crop failure

.gov turning into .nazi all over the world.

No American Dream

Massive extinctions as climate change and starvation work to remove the habitat and numbers of many species of plants and animals.


No we have to accept that we have to work to get things fixed. We need to get fusion and other energy sources and start actively fixing the atmosphere. Then we have to get the hell off of fossil fuels completely as soon as possible.

That does NOT include massive amounts of people dying.

And your insults to religion are not warranted.

[phantom power]

10. You're thinking too small. It's more likely to be billions.

I'd like to point out that I can hold this opinion, without thinking it's a good thing. I can also hold that opinion, without knowing what to do about it.

[depakid]

11. Natural laws don't care what you or I think, want or wish for

they're simply descriptions of how "elements" and "systems" work -and don't work.

And, I like to hope: the premises by which rational people (and sets of people) will use to formulate public policy in the 21st century.

Unfortunately, as we've seen over the past 7 years, the chances of that happening in America are becoming increasingly remote, as sizeable majority has either:

Rejected science in favor of religious or neoclassical economic dogma;

or is otherwise innumerate (particularly as to matters of scale);

or simply doesn't care about the consequences (or lacks any sense of intergenerational equity);

This is of course reflected all too clearly in the nature of the our government(s).

The state of Georgia is a fine example of all of the above- with Sonny Perdue praying for rain instead of promoting responsible land use planning.

[JohnWxy]

5. Big Oil's response to one biofuel - link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x143436

[Zachstar]

7. More crap conspricy theory.

If you believe that the growing of corn for fuel has not increased prices then you are living in fantasyland in my view.


Corn to fuel is wrong period.