Who here has read "The Hydrogen Economy"?

[scarletlib]

Book by Jeremy Rifkin just came out in paperback in the last year. I heard him discussing book on the Diane Rheam show sometime last year. I think he makes a lot of good points and I for one am ready to do anything to save energy/stop using fossil fuels.

Tell me what you think. I am no expert in energy issues.

[gristy]

1. I haven't read it but I can tell you that

hydrogen is not available on this planet as a viable energy source. It is at best an energy storage material. And a very combustible one at that. Hydrogen can be obtained through electrolysis of water, but it takes energy to break the bonds that hold it to the oxygen. You can get most of the energy back when you burn it or pass it through a fuel cell.

[Maple]

3. Hydrogen is the

most abundant thing in the universe.

And no more combustible than gas tanks in your car.

[cprise]

10. Not on Earth it isn't

...unless you are talking about hydrogen atoms tied up in water, etc.

There are few ways to efficiently convert available energy into large amounts of molecular hydrogen (H2), and none of them involve electrolysis (so that nixes solar and wind as sources).

Rather, we are looking at nuclear reactors or fossil fuels as the probable sources of H2 (at least, those would be the largest sources). Isn't that special?

H2 is freely available on stars and gas giants. But we don't live on Jupiter.

Other H2 Problems:

* Tends to leak

* Ruins very many substances (they turn brittle)

* It's at least as dangerous as gasoline (most of the alternatives are safer)

* Low energy density (range: about 150mi per LARGE high-pressure tank)

* Small-Midsize producers are not viable (Exclusive to big corporations)

* It's sexy and a staple of science fiction (an irrational fetish). When people say "water from the tailpipe!", they are really conditioning themselves to ignore any polution from the SOURCE of the H2. The Image of H2 'energy' as a clear glass of water taps into the same impulse for personal purity that created clear Pepsi, clear toothpaste, etc. (But don't worry, H2 is both a floorwax AND a deodorant!)

* Fuel cells require warm-up period to operate.

* Prototype cars have been slow and feeble (the 'fuel economy' they achieve is largely due to the fact that acceleration ability is drastically curtailed). We have done better with slow and feeble combustion engines.


H2 has a future in power production... As short-term energy storage for nuclear power plants (H2 produced off-peak can be used during peak consumption). France is already doing this on a pretty large scale I hear, but they have 80% nuclear power.

For transportation? I doubt it.


A car that stores energy as highly-compressed air is coming on the market, and will still run rings around H2 cars 10, 15 years from now. The car can be filled by a large compressor in a few minutes, and renewable energy can be used without a lot of waste.

Diesel cars now represent the highest-tech segment of the auto industry; they are all the rage in Europe now and catching on elsewhere. I run my diesel with biodiesel fuel, which is produced from agricultural waste oil: It gets 50mpg, 700 mi between fillups, and the modern TDI engine is quiet with passing power to 85mph; It also has fewer parts than and triple the life of a gas engine. (I also haven't made a single friend that owns a hybrid, because they hate me when I tell them the fuel in my car is just a chemical form of solar energy.
They're fossil-fuel Prius can't touch that.. :evilgrin: )

[JohnyCanuck]

2. I haven't read the book, but I did see an interview with Rifkin.

The interview basically was about his book on the Hydrogen economy. My confidence that a Hydrogen economy could be planned and in place ready to deal with the Peak Oil crisis (as proposed by Rifkin) was somewhat shaken after I read this article:

Why Hydrogen is No Solution.

Perhaps the largest problem for hydrogen fuel cell transportation is the size of the fuel tanks. In gaseous form, a volume of 238,000 litres of hydrogen gas is necessary to replace the energy capacity of 20 gallons of gasoline.31

So far, demonstrations of hydrogen-powered cars have depended upon compressed hydrogen. Because of its low density, compressed hydrogen will not give a car as useful a range as gasoline.32 Moreover, a compressed hydrogen fuel tank would be at risk of developing pressure leaks either through accidents or through normal wear, and such leaks could result in explosions.

If the hydrogen is liquefied, this will give it a density of 0.07 grams per cubic centimeter. At this density, it will require four times the volume of gasoline for a given amount of energy. Thus, a 15-gallon gas tank would equate to a 60-gallon tank of liquefied hydrogen. Beyond this, there are the difficulties of storing liquid hydrogen. Liquid hydrogen is cold enough to freeze air. In test vehicles, accidents have occurred from pressure build-ups resulting from plugged valves.33

Beyond this, there are the energy costs of liquefying the hydrogen and refrigerating it so that it remains in a liquid state. No studies have been done on the energy costs here, but they are sure to further decrease the Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI) of hydrogen fuel.

[Maple]

4. LOLOL

I repeat: LOLOL

[scarletlib]

7. Cars will be using hydrogen fuel cells.

Ford Motor Company has solved the storage issue. The company has designed a vehicle in which the tank fits very well and the car will have a range if 380 miles before needing to recharge.

Hydrogen can be generated for storage in the fuel cells by using geothermal, hydroelectric, biomass, wind, wind and solar power sources. All of these will "burn" relatively cleanly. In initial stages even gasoline could be used to create hydrogen for the fuel cells.

Obviously these things are pricey right now but as more investment is made, oil becomes ever more expensive, etc. the price will go down or at least equalize with current energy costs of today.

[JohnyCanuck]

9. Better not count hydrogen chickens before they are hatched.

There's other issues besides just being able to store in a vehicle a suitable amount of Hydrogen to power that vehicle. I am not saying that Hydrogen won't play an important role in the future or that we should stop doing research into Hydrogen, but As the Ruppert article points there are other issues regarding the creation, storage and transmission of hydrogen that will have to be overcome.

First off, because hydrogen is the simplest element, it will leak from any container, no mater how strong and no matter how well insulated. For this reason, hydrogen in storage tanks will always evaporate, at a rate of at least 1.7 percent per day.29 Hydrogen is very reactive. When hydrogen gas comes into contact with metal surfaces it decomposes into hydrogen atoms, which are so very small that they can penetrate metal. This causes structural changes that make the metal brittle.30

If you are going to create hydrogen it will presumably have to be stored and shipped through piplelines to storage facilities etc. so how long will these facilities last if they become brittle due to structural changes caused by interaction with hydrogen?

Life would be so much easier if we didn't have to contend with the laws of thermodynamics.

Currently, most hydrogen is produced by the treatment of methane with steam, following the formula: CH4 (g) + H2O + e > 3H2(g) + CO(g). The CO(g) in this equation is carbon monoxide gas, which is a byproduct of the reaction.35

Not entered into this formula is the energy required to produce the steam, which usually comes from the burning of fossil fuels.

For this reason, we do not escape the production of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. We simply transfer the generation of this pollution to the hydrogen production plants. This procedure of hydrogen production also results in a severe energy loss. First we have the production of the feedstock methanol from natural gas or coal at a 32 percent to 44 percent net energy loss. Then the steam treatment process to procure the hydrogen will result in a further 35 percent energy loss

And making Hydrogen from Solar Panels and water presents its own issues in relation to thermodynamics.

Likewise, the amount of water required to generate this hydrogen would be equivalent to 5 percent of the flow of the Mississippi River.39 As an example of a solar-to-hydrogen set up, were Europe to consider such a transition, their best hope would lie in erecting massive solar collectors in the Saharan desert of nearby Africa. Using present technology, only 5 percent of the energy collected at the Sahara solar plants would be delivered to Europe. Such a solar plant would probably cost 50 times as much as a coal fired plant, and would deliver an equal amount of energy.40 On top of this, the production of photovoltaic cells has a very poor EROEI. (EROEI = Energy Returned on Energy Invested /jc)

The basic problem of hydrogen fuel cells is that the second law of thermodynamics dictates that we will always have to expend more energy deriving the hydrogen than we will receive from the usage of that hydrogen. The common misconception is that hydrogen fuel cells are an alternative energy source when they are not.

www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081803_hydrogen_answers.html

From what I've seen at our current level of technology or the level of technology we will likely be at when Peak Oil effects start to become noticeable, it won't be possible to replicate our current energy intensive, hydrocarbon driven economy (Natural Gas is peaking or shortly about to peak as well as oil)with hydrogen to the extent that we will be able to carry on the typical energy hungry, Hummer driving, North American lifestyles to which we have become accustomed.

[cprise]

11. Is that stored as gas, liquid, or solid?

And how much energy/pollution is involved? Watch out for devils hiding in those details.

Also, those renewable sources don't convert efficiently to hydrogen. They are best used in another form or on the grid.

I'm using a renewable in my car right now at $2.49/gal and 50MPG. For every unit of energy put into producing biodiesel, at minimum 3.2 are returned: harvested solar power! As a fuel source, it's concentrated, safe and low-maintenance.

[Another Bill C.]

5. Hydrogen technology

Back in the '70s I designed a house to build on 20 acres that I owned. I had a plan for using a combination of energy efficiency, woodburning, and generating hydrogen with a wind generator. Unfortunately, being a single father with 2 little kids, I didn't have the money to follow through.

One of the myths about hydrogen fuel concerns the dirigible The Hindenburg. It wasn't the hydrogen fuel that first ignited the craft. The fabric had been coated with a highly flammable substance and was ignited by static electricity when a mooring line was dropped to the ground. The flames that are visible are from the fabric and its coating. Hydrogen flames are nearly invisible. The hydrogen certainly did burn but it did not explode.

http://www.hydrogenus.com/advocate/ad22zepp.htm

[gristy]

6. kewl

generating hydrogen with a wind generator

How did the kids turn out? :)

[morningglory]

8. Saw him on C-Span months ago.

We are all ready to get off the Arab oil field economy. Let's do something.