Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why Can't We Give Up Automobiles?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
RevelerRevenant Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 10:59 PM
Original message
Why Can't We Give Up Automobiles?
Environmentalists, as well as scientist, tell us that the
major cause of air pollution is automobile smoke exhaust.
I will purchase the cleaner fuel, even though it costs more
when and if it is sold in my area. The idea that vehicles
powered by gasoline is a necessity is absurd. There are several
types of engines that are pollution free.
Americans have become fat and lazy. They drive alone, 50 miles
to work, joyride on the weekends, while the poor around the
world starve. Americans throw away enough food to feed a nation
for a long time. We use minerals from Earth in a wasteful
manner. We pollute the water we drink. We should be setting
the standard for the rest of the world and show them that we
are not the rich, fat, wasteful, people that they think we are.
Earth's rich bounties are not unlimited. It really irks me
when some fatcat CEO or politician says that trees don't matter,
the prairie grass doesn't matter, springs and lakes don't
matter and so forth. If the spigot were turned off to their
fancy 40 room homes, or they couldn't afford fuel for the
yacht or couldn't drive the limo, what would they do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. We can and we will.
As soon as we take back our government. The Republican vision of our future says we have to drive cars and make urban sprawl so that we can remain dependent on ME oil and huge profits for Republican Party backers.

Once a Democratic President and Legislature takes back our government, I really think you will see a renewal in our society that will make the 90's pale in comparison. It just needs people with a vision that is not grounded on personal greed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I hate having to drive to work
I drive the most economical car I could afford with good gas milage 32MPG not the best but the car is worth about $1,000. But to go and buy a Hummveee what are they thinking?? Support the War ????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am reading "Carfree Cities"
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 11:20 PM by cprise
http://www.carfree.com/book/index.html

Cities like Venice, Italy are held up as prototypical examples of what we could achieve with an eye for human-scale streets without all the heavy machinery. City districts would be linked by rail, and the blocks laid out mostly in customized, irregular patterns (they're for walking, after all...).

Take a look, it's inspiring.

PS- Welcome to DU!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. i care about the enviroment and all
but i'm not giving my car up, and i hate public transportation, i hate crowds, i'm far from rich, and i'm not brainwashed by big oil, i hate them, but i'm a teenager, and girls dont get verry excited about cars that buzz like a bee when you turn them on, have 1 seat and only go 35 mph.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. im in the same boat
but we need to start thinking up solutions, at the current consumption rate... the world will be outta oil in about 50 years or so...

-LK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. At the rate of growth in demand, capacity elasticity is breeched
in about 15 years, based on known reserves. That means supply/demand pressures on pricing will escalate. The less there is, the more expensive it will be.

We best start to get ourselves into a renewable/reusable energy economy. We should have stayed with Carter's plans in the 80's...but Bush/Reagan brought us "Morning in America". I guess this would be the twilight hours....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. You and your girls
...are both going to have to go through a difficult adjustment in your attituides is this planet is going to support us much longer.

We can change on our own, or we can get slammed to the ground by energy shortages and environmental catastrope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Build the Transit Systems First, Then we'll talk about not driving. Build
Build the railroads and I will ride them if they go where I need to go.

You can hardly call somebody lazy for driving to work
when it's 50 miles away (as per your own example), when the
transit doesn't exist, and there's nobody to carpool with.

If your solution is to cram everybody into the cities,
they you've got to figure out how to make such big cities work,
and I don't think we know how to do that.

It's hard to live near work when work keeps moving around.
Work also tends not to be near anything else.

In the meanwhile, I'll do the long commute one or two days a week,
and telecommute the rest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. That's pretty much my lifestyle...telecommuting
My "office" is 3 hours away from the house. I hate driving to it...a major waste of time. If we ever get the train service up to Central Maine...I could ride the train NH and literally be a 2 minute walk to my office. I'd dave at\least an hour, could work instead of drive and be a lot more productive.

I think it would help rural communities that could be renewed with better rail service.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Mass transit does not work well in a typical suburban environment.
The problem with mass transit in North America is that in general the cities have been desined around the automobile. This has given us a far flung and widespread suburbia which does not provide a viable economic base for mass transit systems, makes government subsidies to transit systems a necessity, and increases the difficulty of planning routes so that the consumer doesn't spend an unduly long time getting from point A to point B.

The typical reaction of the Bimmer, Hummer, and SUV drivers when their politicians try to explain they should be paying taxes to support the bus or subway system. "To hell with that. I don't use transit, and I'll be damned if I will pay one red cent from my taxes to support it. Let the users pay for it through the fare box." That's typically what we hear on the call-in radio shows in Toronto, when the issue of subsidies for the Toronto Transit Comission is brought up.

When I was visiting Paris I was struck by how many families lived in 5 or 6 story appartment buildings along the main streets as opposed to suburban type North American style houses. Those apartment buildings added a charm and a vitality to the streets that was missing from many North American cities where the downtown cores are nothing but office towers for the 9 to 5 crowd and the city core empties out in the evening and becomes a semi-ghost town.

I've read somewhere that the ratio of the heights of the apartment buildings in typical European cities compared to the width of the streets are ideally designed to meet a sub-conscious, psychological human need to feel secure and at ease within the environment. When North American cities think high density housing, they frequently think it means they have to have high-rise condo towers and apartments, sticking up like isolated mountains from within the urban streetscapes. However these types of high rises do not provide for meeting human needs to interact with an environment that's built on a human scale and to live and work in an environment that supplies a feeling of security and comfort as provided by the European style model.

With higher population densities mass transit becomes much more affordable, hence the frequency of service can be increased and thereby the convenience to the consumer. Consequently, more citizens are willing to use public transit for their day to day transportation. Unfortunately, for now, we are stuck with suburbia. Although many cities are changing their zoning and planning regulations to encourage higher population densities there's still a long way to go before the public comes to realize why a house in the suburbs with a huge lawn and two car garage is no longer as desirable as a European style apparent/condo in a 5 or 6 story building within walking distance of shops and a subway or commuter train line.

As the effects of the coming peak in world oil production start to take effect, oil prices will rise, shortages and rationing could well become a fact of life and for many people the convenience of living within a city close to work, recreation, shopping and transit facilities will begin to outweigh the benefits of a 50 mile commute to a suburban bungalow with a two car garage and a nice lawn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. No you don't
"i care about the enviroment and all....but...girls dont get verry excited about cars that buzz like a bee when you turn them on, have 1 seat and only go 35 mph.

No, it seems you care about being popular. Try being yourself and showing the world what you believe in instead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. the best bet
hydrogen fuel cell technologies... water in -> oxygen out (i think...) takes the Hydrogen and busts the bonds between them and the oxygen and releases it out the exhaust, uses the hydrogen (very unstable molecule, btw) problem is the hydrogen fuel cells are expensive... and it takes alot of energy to break the bonds between the atoms... but once we get a system... it should work fine...

another problem is heat, i live in South Dakota... it gets damn cold here half the year... with a fuel efficient gas-burning car 70% (some inefficeint ones are up to 90%+) of the fuel burned is wasted in the form of heat... this is pretty wasteful if your in a warm climate but when its 20 below... its almost necessary so you dont freeze your arse off

-LK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. wait a sec
correction: its a tank of pure hydrogen, a tank of pure oxygen, and they are combined to make pure water... the chemical bond resulting creates a good ammount of energy, sorry bout the confusion lol

-LK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hydrogen is not as easy a solution as some try to portray
Edited on Sat Sep-27-03 04:33 PM by JohnyCanuck
and in spite of the hype that is being given to a hydrogen economy by Jeremy Rifkin and others, there are still important issues that have to be resolved.

For a summary of the problems we'll have trying to switch to an economy where hydrogen replaces hydrocarbons, check out this article:


Why Hydrogen is No Solution

There are no easy "magic bullet" solutions to the realities of Peak Oil and serious and irreversible natural gas shortages. Perhaps one of the most dangerous courses is to accept widely-hyped solutions without critical judgment and then waste the days and hours needed to look for real answers. Just because someone shows you a car that runs on hydrogen today, whether by burning the gas or by using a fuel cell to produce electricity, does not mean that they have shown you a solution. Spending more money or energy on a demonstration model than is produced from the resulting engine's output is a deception - nothing more

<snip>

Now we come to the production of hydrogen. Hydrogen does not freely occur in nature in useful quantities, therefore hydrogen must be split from molecules, either molecules of methane derived from fossil fuels or from water.

Currently, most hydrogen is produced by the treatment of methane with steam, following the formula: CH4 (g) + H2O + e > 3H2(g) + CO(g). The CO(g) in this equation is carbon monoxide gas, which is a byproduct of the reaction.35

Not entered into this formula is the energy required to produce the steam, which usually comes from the burning of fossil fuels.

For this reason, we do not escape the production of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. We simply transfer the generation of this pollution to the hydrogen production plants. This procedure of hydrogen production also results in a severe energy loss. First we have the production of the feedstock methanol from natural gas or coal at a 32 percent to 44 percent net energy loss. Then the steam treatment process to procure the hydrogen will result in a further 35 percent energy loss.36


There are even more problems in attempting to generate useful amounts of hydrogen using power from wind/solar/bio-mass/nuclear and the electrolysis of water. Whether you are deriving hydrogen from Methane or water, it appears that you end up spending more energy in the generation process than the useable energy provided by the hydrogen that you have created. There are also problems with storing and shipping hydrogen as it interacts with metals and causes them to become brittle and effects their structural integrity.

I think too many people are hoping that we can carry on with our typical energy hogging North Amercian lifestyles by a massive changeover to hydrogen once the oil starts to run out. However that is not likely to be the case, and we will have to make signficant changes in our energy consumption patterns or be prepared to face the consequences if we don't.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. o well was a thought
im not so great with chemestry... my thing (in science anyway) is physics... no one had mentioned it yet so i figued id thow it out there...

-LK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. A history of the Growth of Suburbia.
Edited on Sun Sep-28-03 11:25 PM by happyslug
To understand what we must do to adjust to live without the Automobile we have to look at How we adjusted to the Automobile.

1. First you must have a background on Transit (Both Automotive and what is now called Light Rail, in 1900 was called “Electric Railway”, “Streetcar” or “Trolley”)

In the 1880s the US Post Office said it would provide Rural Free Delivery (RFD) to any areas with “improved” Roads. This was do to lobbying by Bicyclist who wanted paved roads to ride on. Prior to that date Rural roads were all dirt (with some exceptions, not many but some, for example US 30 was only paved coast to coast in 1925, being the first paved coast to coast). Bicyclists were the major push for improved roads till 1900, when Automobiles owners started to push for improved roads. About 1905 several States imposed the Gasoline Tax to pay for such improved roads (this type of “user” tax was popular around 1900, for example Hunters had agreed to a 15% tax on Guns and Ammunition so that the Federal Government could have some money to pay for conservation. Both taxes were pushed by the people who were paying the tax, thus Congressmen agreed to pass them).

With the Gasoline Tax, the States had money to pave roads. The States Started to pave, but only rural roads, with most “State” highways ending at the edge of any major City. The City had to pave its own streets. Most had started to do so after the Civil War, but with the Advent of the Streetcar, most cities had the Streetcar Companies pave the streets the Streetcar ran on. This requirement that the Streetcar Companies maintain the paved road the Streetcar ran on, was one of the reasons Streetcars were later replaced by Buses. In 1890, when most urban areas first started to have Electric Streetcars, such streetcar service was very profitable, but by the 1920s profit margins had dropped so much that the Streetcar Companies could NOT replace they tracks AND still stay in Business. Thus from the 1920s till the 1960s whenever a major rebuild of tracks were needed, the Streetcar lines were abandoned. Some of the Old Streetcar Companies converted themselves, other went bankrupt and replaced by a new company running buses (Please note I am discussing Rural Electric Railways NOT inner City Electric Railways, i.e. Streetcars. Inner City Streetcars did not start their own death sprial till the 1930s and having started later lasted longer i.e. till the 1970s).

While the above was going on as to Streetcars, the Automobile was moving on. 1920 was the first Census of the US where more people lived in Urban Areas than Rural Areas, but Rural Transportation seem to be the first affected by the Automobile. While paved roads would come late to such Rural Areas (Most would not have paved roads till the 1930s) the Automobile driven on Dirt Roads during dry weather could move faster than a horse draw wagon. The Automobile’s biggest competitor, the rural Electric Inter-urban Streetcar, had to maintain its own right of way and collect its fees. With the competition of the Automobile and the movement of people from the Country to the City, such inter-urban lines quickly went into a death spiral. What happen is as less people used the streetcar, to maintain profitability the Street-cars ran less often, with the Street cars running less often people said “Why should I wait for the Inter-Urban? I just take my Automobile”. People thought this way, people went out and bought an automobile, and the inter-urbans had less and less customers. Most failed in the 1920s, with a few lasting till the 1950s (I am speaking of Electric “Streetcars” in “rural” areas NOT in urban or suburban sittings).

Now as the Country side lost population, the City gained populations (With inner city Streetcar use peaking in 1927). Just like the rural area, urbanites wanted to be able to use Automobiles also. Most Cities had paved roads so the Automobiles operated on these roads, and starting in the 1920s you had city planners started to retrofit roads designed for the Automobile into the inner city. In 1964 the US Supreme Court ruled that every American had the right to vote AND that every person’s vote had to be viewed as Equal. This outlawed the practice in most states of providing more representation in their Legislature for Rural Areas than Urban Areas. Prior to 1964 (Which is the era we are discussing in this paper) Rural areas had more representation and thus more power in most state’s legislature than Urban Areas, even as more people lived in urban areas. This had several affect, first rural roads were given priority over urban Roads, second such Rural legislators could be easily convinced that certain rural areas near urban areas should have priority over other rural areas (Thus provided more funds for the development of Suburbia). A third side affect is a total opposition to mass transit (Since you could not have mass transit in rural areas, the rural legislators saw no reason to vote for mass transit in urban areas).

Now, the Supreme Court Decision reduced the power of the Rural areas of this country, but did it at a very bad point in the history of what is now called the “inner City” i.e. Non-suburbia. Do to the expansion of Suburbia prior to 1964, the power switch caused by the 1964 Supreme Court Decision was NOT from Rural to Urban, but Rural to Suburban. By 1964 approximately 1/3 of the US population lived in Rural Areas, with 2/3 in Urban Areas, the problem was the inner city was losing its population and suburbia was increasing its, thus by about 1980 it was Rural 1/3, inner-city 1/3 and Suburbia 1/3. With most rural areas voting Republican after 1964, and most inner City voting Democratic after 1964, the fight for control of both the state and Federal Government was fought by the two political parties in Suburbia. Thus neither party has a very good reason to fight the growth of Suburbia, for it would be cutting itself off from the votes it needs to win.

2. History of Suburbia.1890-2000 (All dates used herein are to establish a guideline to go with, none of these dates are fixed in stone. The dates are being used to set forth HOW suburbia developed NOT the exact dates of any one development in that history).

A. The Trolley Suburbs 1890-1920.

With the perfection of the Electric Streetcar, people could have a quick clean and reliable way to get from Home to Work WITHOUT having to live near a Stream Locomotive line. This helped developed the first true Suburbs (Suburbs had existed before but on the Stream Locomotive right of way and as such restricted in area). These areas are now mostly in inner-cities but people who moved into these areas intended to take the streetcar to and from work instead of the earlier means of walking (Contrary to the Movies NO one took a horse to work, if you did you had to keep it in a stable and had to feed it. If you went by Carriage, the preferred way, you had to keep the carriage stored away from the horse, horse manure is hard on wood and metal. Horse manure is also hard on Saddles, thus no one rode a horse to work). Once these tracks were in the people would move out into these Trolley Suburbs as they were called. Stores would move out to be along the track for that was were the people who had money were.

In my home town of Pittsburgh, the Oakland area of Pittsburgh was a “Trolley Suburb”, The University of Pittsburgh moved out from Downtown Pittsburgh to the Oakland section of Pittsburgh during this time period for it could build a bigger building (the Cathedral of Learning) on a bigger plot of land than you could in Downtown Pittsburgh. Other Business followed.

B. First Automobile Suburbs, 1920-1945. These differ from the earlier Trolley Suburbs is that people who moved into these suburbs expected to used their Automobile either to commute to the old inner city or to the Streetcar line and take the streetcar line to work. People still tended to view the Streetcar as backup if something should go wrong with their car. The homes were still within a distant, but reasonable walk from the street car line. One of the Characteristics of this time period is the movement of Branch Stores of the Major Downtown Department Stores to the end of the Street Car lines. These branch stores were on the Street car lines so their workers could get to them without the need for a car, but people in the new Automotive suburbs could drive they car to these same stores.

C. Post-WWII Suburban Boom 1945-1964. This is an expansion of the First Automotive Suburbs to areas to far to walk to the Street car (or bus lines as the Streetcars are replaced by Buses), but people can still be dropped off at the Streetcar stop if their spouse needed the car for the day. This people saw the expansion of strip malls and discount stores in such strip malls. K-Mart type stores come into domination, stores not only relying on customers driving to work, BUT ALSO THEIR EMPLOYEES.

D. The Mall Age 1964-1990. This is an expansion of the Post-WWII suburbs to even further from the inner-city AND a switch to employment in SUBURBIA and that only the poor would be using public transportation. Four things distinguish this period from the prior period, First is the Switch to the Mall being the main shopping Mecca, Second (and related), the death of most inner-city department stores (Only the biggest ones tend to survive), Third, most Public Transportation switch to both buses AND Government ownership of Public Transportation (With Public Transportation being seen only as a means to provide transportation for the poor as opposed to a serious transit alternative for the automobile) and Fourth, the first branch stores of the old inner-city department stores slowly close down and are moved to the mall. Many Survive the conversion from Streetcars to Buses, but some do not, for the call of the Mall is to great. Unlike earlier eras, if you do not have a car your employment opportunities are VERY limited.

Now the First oil Crisis occurred in this ear, but looks like it was more of a minor hindrance to the furthering of Mall America (a mere hiccup for America was still producing 90% of the oil it was using, not till the 1980s did that number start to drop till today’s 50% production).

E. The modern Era, 1990-2003. This area saw two conflicting movements, first the re-turn of Public Transportation as a serious means of transport for the non-poor, Second the growth of the Super K-mart (i.e. Wal-mart) in areas even further out from the inner-city. While the Mall age saw Public Transportation almost die, the further growth of Suburbia show increase traffic tie-ups between suburban areas. The earlier solution of building bigger and bigger highways was increasingly showing to be a dead-end, but the attempts at improving mass transit feeble do to the feeling that it is only for the poor. People were looking at Mass Transit but since most states restricted Gasoline Tax money to highway use, mass transit had NO stable funding source. With Gasoline the Cheapest (in real terms) it has ever been, no push to increase funding for mass transit is made. Furthermore with more jobs in the Suburbs than in the inner city the old method of all transit going to the urban core is not time efficient for most workers. Why go to the Urban Core by one bus to catch another bus to where you work, when you can drive directly to the suburban work location?

We are in some sort of transition, people have been talking of the need for Public Transportation for 30 years (since the advent of Mall America) but these have all failed for failing to come up with a funding source for such mass transit. Buses have failed for the same reason the earlier Streetcar failed in the cities, as the roads have more and more cars, the bus service that uses the same roads goes down hill. The only solution has been known for over 50 years (as shown by many of the surviving Street car lines), mass transit to work has to come frequently, reliably and as fast as using a car. The only way to do that is to have the transit on its own right of way, but that is expensive, buses running on the same roads as Automobiles are cheaper to buy.

3. I go through the above to show you how we became what we are. To eliminate the Automobile would mean to reverse most of the above. Public Transportation has not been viewed as a serious transportation option for most commuters since about 1964 (and I am being generous, I believe we have to go back to the 1920s to see HOW our society has to be structured when we abandoned the automobile). 1964 is the start of the Mall Age of America AND the rule by Suburbia. While the Inner-city would adjust to an oil-less age rapidly (everything tends to be in walking distance and with oil scare most stores will return to the urban core) how can Suburbia switch? I have less concern about Rural America than Suburbia for Rural America can always go back to horses and a life style of going to “Town” once a month (more often when the crop is in). Even Rural industry can adjust by just having the workers move back to the Company towns that still surround most such existing rural industry (Or moving the industry to the inner-city). Most “Rural Industry” tend to be on rail lines anyway so not much a problem for them. Rail tend to be more fuel efficient than Tractor-Trailer AND can more easily convert to electricity as a source of power)

Thus Suburbia is the problem. Bicycle are NOT much help (Please Note I am referring to bicycles in SUBURBIA, I see them as very valuable help in the urban cores AND even rural America). Now Bicycle are quicker than walking, most suburbs have separated work areas from where people live by distances that are to far to bike EVERY DAY. Furthermore most of these work sites are NOT on a rail line so truck transportation is their lifeline (i.e. if oil becomes so scarce that tractor-Trailer owners can no afford to buy oil, these suburban work shops will die, even if the workers can bike to work).

One last note, when I mention Trains using electricity as a power source, I know you still need some sort fo energy to produce the electricity, but that can be Natural Gas(which like oil is in decline), coal, Solar, wind, Hydro and even Nuclear. Thus you have more option than just oil.


4. Solution? In the final review the best solution will be an adjustment to a clearer Urban-Rural distinguish with what we call Suburbia slowly dying. People will have to move closer to their jobs and those jobs will move closer to the cheapest transportation that will exist at that time (probably rail, but can be barge or ship). Suburbia will retreat to the old inner cities (with some retreating to the new urban cores that exist around some of the malls that exists today. These will survive only if connected to the inner city by a LRV system, but once that is up and running you will see people moving closer and closer to these urban cores. For example I see the malls all building apartment complexes for their workers over the existing parking lots. This will permit people who can no longer afford a car to move closer to their work. As more and more people abandoned the Automobile, do to the increase in oil prices, these will fill in the areas around the old malls developing what the old downtown of 1900 had, shops and workers. After a while the mall will cover all of their parking lots with such apartments as people other than workers decide to live next to the mall. Just like today’s growth of Suburbia is lubricated by Cheap oil, the existence of expensive oil will lubricate a retreat from suburbia.

In rural areas I see the return of the horse and increase rural population. Modern Farming techniques require huge tractors. With fuel expensive, the horse can be competitive but only if the present large farms are broken up into the smaller farms such farms were only a couple of generations ago. Horses today can compete with tractors on farms of less than 50 acres (but you can not survive as a farmer on such a small farms, most farmers who are full time farmers are farming 500+ acres, and to do that you need a huge tractor AND oil to run that tractor). Once oil is to expensive, the economics of farming will change and that will lead to a slow return to smaller farms.

One area where overlap will occur is some of the Mall age and after Suburbs. I see these being abandoned and return to farm land. With decrease yields do to reduce use of Natural Gas derived fertilizers we will have to do so to just to feed our present population. Thus as you travel from the rural farm land to the urban core. you will see acres and acres of small farms than move right into urban areas with small yards. Than as you near the urban core you will enter an area of Apartment buildings (no more than six stories high) around a central shopping district (a old mall or an old inner city center). The Cities will be dispersed but compacted, connected by electric rail service (on both LRV system and the old locomotive systems that will convert to Electricity).

In review you see we have only been living in a Automotive dominated society since about 1925, which means it has taken us 75 years to get to where we are. Once we start to convert to non-automotive society it will take us just as long and will require a slow increase in the price of oil (which is expected). Thus whenever oil production peak occurs, that is when we will start the long and “interesting” switch to a post-automotive society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. No one imagined
There's this HUGH infrastructure built up around the car and it'll take a long, long time to replace. I imagine that eventually we must.

A few weeks ago I was sitting outside a NYC coffee shop watching the world go by. I imagined how much more pleasant it would be without cars. I imagined digging up the streets and planting trees (reduce that heat island). That's where it gets difficult because you have to allow for deliveries and emergency services.


I doubt if anyone imagined what a mess the automobile would make of our world. Then, as well as today, we mostly see the convenience. The automobile has provided us with incredible freedom to travel anywhere we want, anytime we want, with essentially no restrictions. Tough to beat.

But the economic, environmental, and even social costs are huge.

Imagine what you could do with the money you spend on the car(s), insurance!, repairs, tolls, and fuel. Not to mention the hidden taxes you pay.

The environmental aspects, 'nuff said.

In some ways, the car makes us more isolated. We're alone in our cars for significant periods. We CAN live isolated from our neighbors. There's much less "commons" in our lives because of the car.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Demise of the streetcar
Here in North Jersey there was once an extensive streetcar network. It always teetered on the edge of bankruptcy and finally fell in, but with some help.

The new bus companies bought up some of the lines just to shut them down. GM was one of the participants.

Much of the rail passenger service was shut down during the '50s. Millions are now being spent to try and figure out how to restart some of these lines.

Our lifestyles would've been so different had the transportation network of the early 1900s remained in place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I Lived on the last Streetcar line in Pittburgh
Took it to High School, College and Law School. I Liked it. It was built in 1900 to connect Beechview section of Pittsburgh with Downtown Pittsburgh. To do so a one mile long tunnel had to be built through Mt Washington and a long bridge had to be built over the Saw Mill Run Valley. Once these were done Beechview was ten minutes from Downtown Pittsburgh (and when I was growing up in the 1970s it was still ten minutes away, my High School was six minutes away by Streetcar, but if I would go by Automobile, 20-30 minutes except during Rush Hour where it may be 1 hour away).

It survived because it had been built on its own right of way on the top of a ridge between two valleys. Later on in the 1920s and than the 1940s four lane highways were put into these valleys, but the Streetcar on its own right of way could still beat them into town.

The problem with the line was that with the demise of all the other streetcars how to you keep the system running. The Last Streetcars purchased new were in the 1940s (in the 1970s the Streetcar operator purchased old streetcars from former streetcar operators just to have parts). The Bridges were wooden bridges built in 1900 and by 1970s were at the end of they life (They needed to be replaced in the 1950s). The Bridges had been built to operate heavy inter-urban cars so the lighter PCC cars purchased and used after 1940 were not as rough on the Bridges so the Bridges lasted 20 more years than they had been designed for).

Thus in the 1960s what to replace these streetcars with came up. Buses could NOT do the job the Bridges all lead to the Streetcar Tunnel and that tunnel has NO ventilation (You do not need ventilation if you only operate electric vehicles. Ventilation was installed in the 1970s as part of new bus lane that was to supplement the Streetcar, but that bus lane went to the four lane highways in the valley NOT where the Streetcar went.) Another proposal was in install an automatic people mover (Like you see in airports today) but the technology was not quite perfected and to work required ½ of the existing street car stops to be eliminated (Which was opposed by the people who lived on the line).

Eventually a new LRV system was installed right along the right of way of the old streetcar line, so the streetcar was replaced by another up to date streetcar, so I see where New Jersey is coming from and going to. I have a sister who now lives in New Jersey and I see the lack of adequate mass transit hurting the state.

The problems with buses is they must operate on the same roads as automobiles. The old Streetcars had the same problem, they operated on the same roads and thus were killed by the Automobile (Except where the Streetcar had its own right of way, it tended to survive, more so if like in Pittsburgh, the right of way was hard to be converted for the uses of Buses). Mass transit to work has to be almost as quick as using an Automobile, some delay can be accepted, but only some. The problem is the only way to do that is to have the mass transit on its own right of way independent of the Automobiles. This is easier on Streetcars for there are electrically operated and as such easier to operate below ground. Streetcars are the best retrofit transit you can do in an area, cheaper than building a new highway.

The problem is where to get the money to pay for the mass transit. This is complicated by the fact gasoline taxes collection is 30% cheaper than transit fee collection. How can this be, simple, gasoline taxes are paid through gasoline taxes which are paid at the pump. The collection of these taxes are the duty of the seller of Gasoline who collects it at the same time he collects the cost of the gasoline he has sold. Roughly collecting and accounting for any money collected costs about 30 cents out of every Dollar collected. This 30% fee is carried by the Gasoline seller when it comes to the gasoline taxes. On the other hand the transit operator is the person collecting the transit fees and thus they have to bare the 30% fee of collecting the transit fees.

This 30% difference has been the death of Mass transit in the US since 1920. You have two means of transit, one that cost 30% more to collect the money to operate with which do you think will survive? Even the subsidies most Transit operate under since the 1960s do not come to 30% of their budget so it is still cheaper for most people to operate their car than to take Mass Transit. Europe solved this problem decades ago (and was reenforced after the 1956 and 1967 Arab Oil embargo) by having high gasoline taxes and uses that money to subsidize Mass transit, thus they were in a better situation than the US during the 1973 and 1979 oil shortages (prior to 1970 the US was a net oil exporter so the 1956 and 1967 oil embargo had no affect on the US, but by 1973 the US was an oil importer so the effect of the 1973 oil embargo and 1979 oil crisis hit the US harder than it did Europe).

Thus the best solution is higher gasoline taxes and to use those taxes to build mass transit systems independent of the Highway network (With additional funding for bike ways AND intercity rail service with some of the funding going to rural areas to rebuild bridges). This is the European solution (and the rest of the world’s solution also) but the US has always rejected it. I fear the US will wait till oil production peak is reached. Once oil production peak is reached gasoline prices will go through the roof. That would eliminate the 30% extra cost of collection and Mass transit will return to the US but at cost of building way out of what it would cost to construct now AND with a shortage of Capital (do to the extra cost of Oil) that may prevent construction of Mass transit lines. Thus we need to fight for mass transit lines in urban Areas, we need to fight for Rails to Trails and other bikeways, we need to rebuild intercity rail transport. The best way to fund this is through increase gasoline taxes that will give us the money to build these things AND increase the use of these things as economical compared to gasoline.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Toronto still has streetcars integrated with street traffic
Toronto has had streetcar lines going back to the 19th century and the existing streetcar infrastructure still runs pretty much on the street integrated with other traffic in the downtown area and in older city neighbourhoods. However, there has been one recently completed, new streetcar line which has a dedicated right of way down the center of the street.

There have been efforts to do away with the streetcars on the city streets because their detractors complain they add to congestion in rush hour since they tend to block a lane of traffic when picking up and dropping off passengers. Also the system of overhead wires is quite expensive to maintain, and if a streetcar breaks down while on its route, it's usually stuck occupying a lane of traffic until it's towed away or fixed. It can't be pulled over to the side of the road like a bus.

Interestingly enough it's been the citizens of Toronto who have fought back against some pretty determined efforts by the Transit System's executives and consultants to get rid of the streetcars, as from a strictly economic and practical point of view they are more expensive and less flexible than buses would be running on the same routes.

It appears that there are many Torontonians with a sentimental attachment to the city's streetcars, and a couple things the streetcar proponents are quick to mention in their favour is that the streetcars are electrically driven so they're not noisy like a diesel engined bus and they don't emit the pollutants associated with internal combustion engines which helps to cut down on smog. (Although there is still some pollution coming from the power plant that generated the electricty for the streetcar line).

Here's a picture of one of the streetcars and you can see what I mean when I said they tend to block traffic when stopping to drop off or pickup passengers. (More Toronto streetcar pictures at www.transitnow.com )





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-02-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Here is some pictures of Pittsburgh's Street cars
Edited on Thu Oct-02-03 04:29 PM by happyslug
Pittburgh' LRV still runs on Streets also, but mostly its own right of way. By the way, when it was proposed to replace the Streetcar in the late 1960s the people along the line all protested the change. It was a fight that cost many a local county commissioner his job (Allegheny County is the County where the City of Pittsburgh is located in and as such runs the Mass Transit system). Up until 1999 Allegheny county had a three member comission runing the county and they were the ones who lost their jobs over what to replace the streetcar with.

Yesterday streetcars (Slow to load, lots of thumbnail pictures)
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/pitts/pitts.html

Todays "LRV" line:
http://www.lightrail.com/photos/pittsburgh/pittsburgh.htm




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-03 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Build it and they will come
That's my observation about transit systems after living in Portland for ten years and recently moving to Minneapolis.

In Portland, it is easy to live without a car. The bus and light rail lines all seem to be in the right places, the connections between lines work, and you rarely have to wait more than 15 minutes for a bus. The system isn't perfect, especially in the outer suburbs, but it's workable and easy to understand. Every September, you can buy a booklet that lists the schedules for all the routes and contains a fold-out map of how all the routes relate to the major streets.

Here in Minneapolis, I have reasonable bus service to downtown and one shopping mall, but my attempts to take the bus elsewhere have been frustrating. I find myself driving a lot more than I ever imagined. The buses do not go to major destinations, they do not run on or near the major through streets, and the MTC seems to think it's doing a good job if there are three buses per hour, two per hour at night. Instead of single lines that go to the places where people want to go, you get lines that fork out into several branches at either end and are named with letters (28K, 28L, etc.), three-digit bus routes that seem to have been plotted by dropping spaghetti on the map. Many lines run only during rush hours and duplicate the routes of regular lines.

Information is hard to come by. You can get a schedule ON the bus or at SOME of the bus shelters, but if you go to the Web site and try their route planner, you find that the Web site doesn't recognize the names of well-known streets. There's a "route map" on the Web site, but it doesn't let you see the whole system at once. You have to zoom in on the neighborhood you want, but if your trip goes outside that neighborhood, then you have to zoom in again, only it's hard to find where the line you were following has gone.

To top it off, the MTC punishes its most loyal riders by basing fares not on distance (like Portland) but on time of day. Rush hour riders pay 50 cents more than non-peak riders. Go figure. I guess they're afraid they'll have too many riders.

Tried to go take the bus to hear Kucinich speak in St Paul. The buses didn't run late enough to take me back.

Went to my great-aunt's house today. Couldn't get within two miles of her place on the bus.

I can get within one mile of my mother's house--if I go at the right times of day.

I can get to choir practice all right, but coming back requires standing outside for at least half an hour, either waiting for the direct bus outside the church or waiting fifteen minutes for the next bus that goes to the Uptown Transit Center and waiting for another fifteen minutes there.

So while I was unsympathetic to "car potatoes" in Portland, I'm finding that I really do need a car in Minneapolis. Even so, I'm setting myself a private challenge: how little gas can I use? I got by on twenty dollars worth last month.

If the Federal government were seriousl about national defense, it would wean us from dependence on Middle Eastern oil and use the Star Wars money to fund transit systems in every major city and to encourage the retrofitting of existing neighborhoods for alternatives to the automobile. Libertarians complained about the $675 million price on Portland's West Side Light Rail line, but that's just pocket change to the Pentagon. Let's see---how many such rail lines could be built for $87 billion? About 125 maybe?

Alternatively, we could fund Amtrak at current levels for 87 years. That's right, folks. Amtrak's "exorbitant" subsidy is less than the budget of the average state highway department.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Loyal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'd rather have a fuel cell car
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sorry but not all of us live in or near a city
Many of us don't even set foot in a city. I hate cities myself and never plan to visit one. We have no need for mass transit and would scoff at the insane notion in our case. Use it if you have and need it but lets let those that have no need for it survive without it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "I hate cities myself and never plan to visit one"?
Edited on Sat Oct-04-03 11:08 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
Yikes. What did cities ever do to you? Me? I hate suburbs, because they're boring and ugly. I'm indifferent to the country. I love the vitality and diversity of cities. So there.

Well, at least have some consideration for the elderly and disabled and impoverished in your region. Granted, a subway in Idaho would be ridiculous, but some sort of circulating vans or dial-a-ride program could be a lifesaver for people who are unable to drive for whatever reason.

Not having a car literally gives a person an extra couple of thousands of dollars of disposable income per year, which can mean the difference between survival and utter destitution for a poor household.

In addition, using trains instead of airplanes for trips of under 600 miles makes economic and fuel-saving sense. There's no reason why passenger trains couldn't go through small Idaho towns like they used to.

The world's oil supply (or lack thereof) may make the decision for us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Mass transit will help even Idaho
Now, I live in Johnstown Pennsylvania which is a small city in the Western part of the state, The county it is located in is 1/3 urban/suburban and 2/3 rural. Even in the rural areas rural bus service is maintained between the various small towns and the county seat (Through on a 2-3 days a week schedule as opposed to every day). People do use these systems but most of the rural population uses their automobiles and will continue to do so no matter how high the price of gasoline goes.

Thus mass transit will not help most of rural America directly, but can help indirectly by ending a lot of waste of gasoline used in urban/Suburban areas where Mass Transit can work. If more people would use mass transit in urban/suburban areas, less gasoline would be used and whenever the rollover of oil production occurs there would be less pressure to increase the price of Gasoline.

Now the Rollover of world wide Oil production in generally set for about 2008 (Through estimates of 2002 and 2020 have also been made, but 2008 has the most support among geologists i.e. the people who are in the business of finding oil). What Rollover means is the point in oil production when they will no longer be any increase in oil production but a long slow decline in oil production. Oil will be produced for another 100 years after the Roll over, but it is roll over when demand exceeds supply AND THAT BECOMES THE PERMANENT SITUATION.

AS you while know whenever Demand exceeds supply, prices go up till Demand equals Supply. Sometime after the rollover this will occur and prices will raise and keep on raising till the economy have shifted to other sources of energy (and conservation of Energy). Conservation of Energy appears to be the best long term solution and that will occur first and to greater extent in Urban/Suburban areas do to the concentration of population. As prices raises mass transit becomes more and more a viable option in such Urban/Suburban areas (and those suburban areas where it does NOT become viable are abandoned for areas where mass transit is viable). I have wrote in other threads that I see a sharper urban/rural divide after the Roll over, not for any political reason, just that by concentrating people Mass transit becomes more viable.

In rural areas, the further a rural person lives from an urban area the less chance he or she will have the ability to travel to an urban area to shop. Such a rural person will switch to more economic automobile for travel but also travel less. The price of Gasoline will determine how much traveling the rural person will do, How often would you go shopping at $20 a gallon gasoline?

Thus even rural people will benefit from the reduction of demand in urban areas for gasoline (with the increase use of Mass Transit in Urban Areas).

Now I have always advocated a $1.00 a gallon tax on Gasoline to do two things, First to proved funding for Mass transit improvements and Second to discourage the use of Automobiles. At one time I advocated that this should be restricted to Urban/Suburban Areas, but after I review the history of the growth of Suburbia I concluded all that will do is encourage people to buy in "Rural" areas near today' Suburban fo the cheaper gasoline, thus expanding Suburbia instead of reducing suburbia.

Thus the $1.00 a gallon has to be nationwide, with parts of it going to bikeways (in encourage biking), building Transit (I oppose the tax money going to run buses, for buses do NOT solve the problem of long term dependence on gasoline as would Light Rail Vehicles etc.,) Amtrak (To discourage the present waste of Fuel used by Airplanes). I also would set aside 10 cent of each Dollar collected to improve rural roads. Most of the sub-standard bridges in this Country are in Rural America and one of the best way to reduce the use of fuel is to improve these bridges so people can use them. It is ridiculous for a person to have to travel 20 miles to go to a town ten miles away because the connecting bridge is out and there is no money in the budget to replace it.

Thus mass transit not only would help Rural America by keeping the price of gasoline down doing the Roll Over, but also before than if we just adopt a Dollar a Gallon tax to fund the needed improvements needed to switch to a less energy intensive society.







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC