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Greer - Is This The Time To Begin To Try Saving & Distributing Scientific Knowledge?

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 09:12 AM
Original message
Greer - Is This The Time To Begin To Try Saving & Distributing Scientific Knowledge?
EDIT

From today’s perspective, mind you, it may seem silly to suggest that science may need saving at all. Not only does scientific research play a huge economic role in modern society, science has become an ideology that fills most of the roles occupied by religion in older civilizations than ours. Scientific institutions have profited accordingly, expanding into an immense network of universities, research institutes, foundations, and publishers, subsidized by many billions a year in government largesse.

Yet the same thing could have been said about the priesthoods of Jupiter Optimus Maximus and his fellow gods in the glory days of the Roman Empire, or the aristocratic priest-scribes of the Lowland Maya city-states in the days before Tikal and Copán were swallowed by the jungle. Civilizations direct huge resources to their intellectual elites, because they can, and because the payoff in terms of each civilization’s values are well worth the expenditure. The downside is that the intellectual heritage of each civilization becomes dependent both on the subsidies that support them and on the ideological consensus that makes those subsidies make sense. In the decline and fall of a civilization, both the subsidies and the consensus are early casualties; thereafter, the temples of Jupiter get torn apart to provide stones for churches, and the intricate planetary almanacs compiled by Mayan astrologers rot in the ruins of the temples where their authors once contemplated the heavens.

Project the same process onto our own future and the vulnerabilities of science are hard to miss. Imagine, for example, a world forty years from now in which rates of annual production of oil, coal, and natural gas have dropped so low that only countries that produce them can afford to use them at all, and then only to meet critical needs. Half the surviving population in the nations with remaining fossil fuels, and 90% in the others, labors at subsistence agriculture, and most of the remainder work in factories converting salvaged materials into needed goods with hand tools. Worldwide, dozens of nations have collapsed into violent anarchy, and whole populations are on the move as sea level rises and rain belts shift. In America, the old canal network is being reopened by men with shovels, as fuel shortages hit a rail network that never recovered from its 20th-century dilapidation. Meanwhile army units face guerrilla forces in the mountain West, while refugees from starving Japan, packed into the hulks of abandoned container ships, ride the currents en masse toward the west coast.

In such a world, what role will modern science have? Certain branches of applied science, especially those applicable to energy and the military, will get funding as long as anything still exists to fund them. Most other applied fields will have to scrabble for scraps, though, while pure research will go begging, because the resources to support them in their current style won’t exist. The facilities that make advanced research possible will be boarded up when they haven’t been looted for raw materials. Significant science could still be done in such a future. It bears remembering, after all, that such epochal scientific discoveries as the theory of natural selection and Mendelian genetics were made with equipment would be considered hopelessly inadequate for a high school science class today. The problem is that the entire mindset of today’s science militates against research on this scale. The transformation of science from a pursuit of gifted amateurs to a profession supported by government and corporate funds was complete most of a century ago; today it would be hard to find many scientists who would be able to pursue their research unassisted in a basement lab with homemade equipment, and I’m by no means sure how many of them would be willing to do it without pay, on their own time, after their day jobs.

EDIT

http://www.energybulletin.net/45766.html
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Unquestionably. And we had better enlist the church to do it, like last time.
Why? Look around you. Just what do you think is going to happen in our Empire when the belt TRULY begins to tighten?

You think that we are going to band together under enlightened leadership that could rescue the economy (and capitalism in the old USA, for that matter) expose and defeat an attempted Bushie-Nazi Coup D' Etat, then help defeat the world's biggest tyrants?

No way. The die has already been cast by the Bushies, so barring a major turnaround (possible but not probable) it will go down much like the Dark Ages.

The Bushies already have an apparatus and template that can drive people insane, can get them to comply or assist with any atrocity. This will come in handy when the Bushies need scapegoats. All they will have to do is warm up a very warm ,well-oiled machine of manipulation.

Pogroms and witch burnings, of the usual suspects: liberals, Jews, Blacks, gays, any convenient OTHER.

Dark Ages-level ignorance in 300 years or less, maybe MUCH less. Slavery will make a comeback if even the rich can't get their hands on any remaining oil. I mean, how are they going to get around in the comfort they deserve, eh? SOMEONE is going to have to heft those sedan chairs.

This is why having the church reprise their role from the last Bushie Dark Ages 500-1400 AD, because nothing else will be safe from being burned by the idiots.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Pure unadulterated drivel...
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Drive-by smearing post with no substance or contributions to the discussion
No surprise there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. I know you are, but what am I?
Just thought I'd adjust the level of discourse to something you can relate to better...

:dunce:

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-27-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. .
:popcorn:
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just look what happened to the EPA libraries under Bu**sh** ...
no need to wait for "the collapse of civilization", the total corruption of government is sufficient reason to make BACKUPS OF EVERYTHING.
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SnowGoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. The vulnerability of our hard-won knowledge is underappreciated
I'm thinking for instance of NASA, who had data from old missions stored on media used by machines that are no longer available. Unless the data is migrated, it's as good as lost. Hell, I've got a bunch of data sitting on old Syquest drives, with the same limitations (and they're not really that damn old).

If you're associated with a university, you've probably also noticed that paper journals are going the way of the dinosaurs. I'm not a big proponent of dead-tree data storage, but the current system where the *only* access I have to research papers is via the internet presupposes that said computer network will always be up and running. It goes down for some reason, and the research might as well never have been done.

I agree that there should be contingency plans to make the cumulative scientific knowledge of the human species available and accessible to those who might find themselves in a situation we didn't foresee.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. I beg to differ
The scientific method is not the most vulnerable of the aspects of science. It is the genie uncorked, and it will not go back into the bottle. Yes, the process by which the nuclear genie was uncorked, never to go back into the bottle, is a much larger genie that is now possessed by both nuclear powers and non-nuclear powers around the globe. After the works of Galileo, van Leeuwenhoek, Lavoisier and others who replaced Aristotelian reasoning with the observational method, the power of the better method will not put aside.

What the country will need to do is not put its resources into military research, but into horticultural research. Research that will allow people to grow the food and energy they need without transporting it from far away continents.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-12-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well said. nt
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Doing that now
Me and the others in the commune I live in are saving hard copy info and knowledge on agriculture and plant propogation.We are also building heirloom seedbanks and will be starting to spread the seed stocks to multiple locations in order to protect them.
Also,I am saving to hard copy as many plans and prints and schematics for small electrical generation systems.
We also have people working on leasrning and saving knowledge concerning natural herbal and homeopathic medicines.

Dark days are coming.Don't get caught up in them without being prepared.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, but...
...I wouldn't stop there - there are some pieces of literature and art that would be worth showing to my grandchildren if it all turns to custard. It needn't be the complete works of everyone, ever - just the key works.

And music, of course - A devolution without dancing is a devolution not worth having.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. The challenge would be ...
... to find some medium that can capture the beauty but still be
a) resilient enough to survive in unprotected storage
b) retrievable without complex equipment
c) isn't "reusable" in the hard times (e.g., paper will burn ...)

:shrug:

(Mind you, that would pale into insignificance with the bunfight that
arises when people try to determine which are "the key works"!)
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-13-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. How about one of these?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. If only ...!
The number of modern (= < 50 years old) buildings that will survive as
long as the pyramids can probably be counted on the thumbs of one hand.

(If that is the red pyramid at Dashur then I touched it a few years ago!
Reading about the pyramids is one thing but to stand there at the base
of them - especially the red pyramid with its largely intact facing - is
to really appreciate the work ... it is just something else!)
:hi:
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. That is the red pyramid.
cooool....
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. well, the Long Now Foundation are tackling those
from a centralised point of view, with the 10,000 year library. But I suspect it would be wise to also take a dispersed approach - if there 10,000 copies of the works of Shakespeare dispersed around the globe on on (fairly) standard acid-free paper, quite a few of them would survive the next 5 centuries intact. Art would be a little more tricky, but there are illuminated manuscripts from over 1,000 years ago still going strong, so it shouldn't be impossible.

As for what to keep, I'd suggest leaving that up to individual collectors. That way we should wind up with a good mix, with key works like Gray's Anatomy and Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata being pretty common, but the less obvious stuff like Norton's Star Atlas or indeed the Dead Parrot Sketch standing a fair chance.

Hopefully nobody will bother with Spiceworld, which might make the whole exercise worthwhile.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. A less flammable medium would be preferable ...
... maybe not for the individual works of literature (which could be
archived with some of the art) but for the scientific knowledge
(e.g., principles and concepts along with some detailed expansions).

:shrug:

There again, we could always go back to the "traditional" storage method to
preserve knowledge in the case of the destruction of the world: two pillars
(one of brass to resist water and the other of stone to resist fire) that
record the essentials of grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, geometry,
music and astronomy ... but I might be veering off topic there!
:evilgrin:
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'll need a bigger bookcase, then.
Ah well. Off to the hardware store...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-14-08 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. When the library at Alexandria was burned, it is believed that the invention of calculus
by Archimedes was lost.

Newton, not a modest man, is said to have remarked that "If I have seen further than anyone else, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." Possibly the biggest of those giants was Archimedes. It is very clear that many of Archimedes methods, including his method for calculated the value of the constant pi, anticipated calculus.

We have seen that many types of archives, including film - much of which was originally on highly flammable and unstable nitrocellulose - do not have a very long lifetime.

The matter of archives is a very, very, very serious affair. Most, of course, are now in an electronic format, which makes them very accessible to those who live now - I can dig up stuff in two minutes now that would have taken me hours, if not days, to dig up before - but the permanence of these records is a real concern. This would be true even if there were not huge environmental disruptions on the horizon, but there are such disruptions on the horizon.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. The human mind is the ultimate artifact
As long as we humans, or our heirs, are alive, scientific knowledge -- as well as art, the humanities, language, music, and all the other products of the human spirit -- can only be lost temporarily.

Once we are no longer bound to the Earth, but free to roam the Universe, our collective longevity will become potentially eternal. The ONLY thing that is in question is whether we can take that step.

This, of course, will require a lot of work, and some time. But I doubt that it will take even 500 years. 100 years is probably enough, though I will defer to anyone who can present even a mediocre argument that it should be otherwise.

In the short run, I think we're going to be feeling some heavy-duty pain; in the long run, I am optimistic.

--p!
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think it's like facing your own death
At some point you do have to go gently into that good night. :(
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. Yes.
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