High speed trains are killing airplanes

[tinrobot]

Here's another harbinger: air traffic between cities that are linked by high speed train lines is significantly reduced. This was a notorious effect of the Paris-Lyon route (Europe's first high speed train link), and has been seen more recently in the Paris-London, Paris-Brussels and Paris-Amsterdam combinations. In the country where high speed trains are growing the fastest is seeing the effects as well: The Madrid-Barcelona high speed link in Spain (AVE), which started operating in March, has reduced by about 18.4 percent the air traffic between the two cities.

June is expected to offer more dramatic results. Railway traffic has increased steadily by five percent every month since then, and Renfe, the company that operates the line, has increased train frequencies accordingly. Train speeds are also going to be faster this fall, from the current 300 km/h to 350 km/h (186 to 217 mph) completing the 615 km (382 mi.) long trip in 2 hours and 15 minutes. The Spanish high speed train network is expected to be linked with France and the rest of the European continent in 2010.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/17/high-speed-trains-are-killing-airplanes/

---------

Now we if could only get high speed rail here in the US.

[villager]

1. ballot initiative coming in November to fund a vastly overdue SF/LA high speed train

n/t

[WhiteTara]

10. yeah!

I would love that. Then we might be able to get the northern ca rail. I would love to train to the city and to be able to travel the state would be fabulous. I'll spread the word on the initiative.

[tinrobot]

20. I'll vote for it.

Cool.

[villager]

23. more info here:

http://cahsr.blogspot.com/

[kestrel91316]

25. I could get on board with that. Would it REALLY actually go from LA,

as in DOWNTOWN LA, to San Francisco, as in DOWNTOWN San Francisco???????? With no bus travel masquerading as Amtrak???

[One_Life_To_Give]

27. Putting dedicated welded rails into downtown?

Putting dedicated welded rails into downtown areas will be the toughest part. High speed trains don't really work on the freight rails laid out across the country. So you really need all new welded seem rails put in just for high speed passenger service. In rural area's it's not so much of a problem but in the urban centers? We could put them underground but there are alot of utility lines running beneath our cities and it would get very expensive.

[kestrel91316]

28. We can build them on the freeways. Since the cost of gas is going to

make them obsolete sooner rather than later.......

[phantom power]

29. Using freeway right-of-ways for a rail revival is actually a popular proposal.

Makes sense to me.

[One_Life_To_Give]

32. Are freeway Vibration/movement specs tight enough?

I have heen on some bridges that likely had too much movement in them for a 350MPH train. Not sure if we have enough footings in the roads for this. Granted in places with wide medians or where we could take out the center 4 or 6 lanes, would could bring it up to spec. Bridges might all need to be redone?

[phantom power]

34. Could be a problem. It was proposed purely as a solution to right-of-way.

[tinrobot]

43. Even if it went to a BART or Metro station, I'd be cool with it.

Whenever I fly to SFO or Oakland fro Los Angeles, I always take BART into the city, it works really well.

[SahaleArm]

49. Yes at the new Transbay Transit Center

The http://www.transbaycenter.org/transbay/">Transbay Transit Center will link HS-Rail, Caltrain, Muni, and Bart under one location.

[islandmkl]

2. oh...i thought this was some 'Terminator 4' story line....

machine versus machine and all that....

[YOY]

3. WE DO HAVE HSR!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

It's not everywhere yet though. Give us time and money.

[liberal N proud]

6. Sort of

Acela runs at speeds between 75 mph (120 km/h) and 150 mph (241 km/h), depending on track conditions. On the average, it is significantly slower than most other high-speed trains elsewhere in the world

High speed for American railroads.

[YOY]

7. Give us time and money

We are not overfunded at AMTRAK I assure you.

For example: We're still playing catchup with the airlines for e-Ticketing.

We need more lines and our own dedicated rails for more and faster HSRs.

If we had 2% or 3% of the wasted money that is Iraq (Operation Catastrophuck) going into our budget...

[liberal N proud]

There lies the problem...

FUNDING!

The rest of the world while they have been paying higher gas prices for years. Most of the price was from taxes which were diverted from roads and general funds to high speed rail and other mass transit methods.

We need a train that can go from New York to LA in less than 8 hours. It would have to average 350 mph

[YOY]

11. That'd be a MagLev Bullet. Only something like the JR-Maglev could do that!

I'd kill a kitten to get to work on that project. That's my Amtrak dream...

Many here at Amtrak WANT this.

We have the technology and the money...we'd just rather waste it on killing.

[liberal N proud]

13. Yep

All us techno geeks would love to work on a project like that

[tinrobot]

21. Imagine if a weeks worth of Iraq expenses were given to rail.

We'd have plenty of money to upgrade the system and add high speed rail.

We'd also need a lot less oil.

[YOY]

44. Stop it my nipples are getting hard...

It's embarrassing!

[kentauros]

26. Dedicated rails

and no at-grade crossings are the keys to highspeed-rail in this country. Guarantee that much and most of the unwarranted fears people have would vanish.

Although faster than the other highspeed forms of rail, I seem to recall that maglev isn't as efficient for energy use. However, I could envision such lines being "lined" with solar/wind plus storage facilities to power or augment the power needed for their operation :D

[YOY]

37. You'd have less accidents as well as less delays in train times

When people b***h about Amtrak they often cite our lateness. It's mostly cos of being stuck behind some Freight Railroad Line having a mechanical problem or just hauling far too much.

[mainegreen]

16. I'd love to see the whole NE corridor united by high speed rail

Just don't forget the northeast doesn't end in Boston.

Portland needs love too!

[YOY]

17. Time and money...

Call your congressman. Argueing for better train infrastructure in a time of rising gas prices is not a fool's errand! It's a solid request and there isn't much to be debated.

We at Amtrak would appreceate it!

[eppur_se_muova]

39. As fuel prices go up, even LOW speed rail will beat airplanes.

Good thing too. We need transportation for the masses, not just the business class.

[happyslug]

45. Acela had two problem, first its weight, and second the rail line it runs on

Under Federal law dating from before WWI, requires all Passenger rail cars to be made of heavy duty steel. This Acela cars are 2-3 times the weight of European high speed cars (Europe depends on signaling to prevent accidents, a policy that has really come into its own since WWII). The problem for Amtrak was the weight required by US Law was NOT changed by Congress when Congress granted the Money for Acela. Thus Amtrak could NOT use off the rack European Equipment, instead had to adopt European Equipment to much heavier train cars.

The second, and much bigger problem, is that Amtrak runs on tracks that also operate Fright lines. These lines are geared for Fright NOT high Speed Passenger trains. Now Amtrak does have some exclusive Right of ways, but even these tend to have been built before WWI for much slower train travel. On the other hand the High Speed Lines of Europe and Japan travel on exclusive right of ways AND restricted to high Speed passenger trains only.

Thus what is needed for High Speed rail is for the US to adopt something like the French or Japanese system, high speed steel rail systems with an exclusive right of way for high Speed Passenger trains. Such a system could make money today in the Boston to Washington DC route, The DC or Philadelphia to Chicago route and the San Diego to Seattle routes. These are routes go through high population areas so you have a nice pool of people to collect from. You can add regular speed rail system to the various stations to act as feeders (i.e. Albany NY to NYC to catch the East Coast high Speed train, NYC to Atlantic City and Philadelphia to catch the high speed rail in NYC and Philadelphia, Las Vegas to LA to catch the West Coast High Speed Trains).

The problem is such exclusive High Speed Rail lines are 10-20 years in the Future for the US (We have NOT even began to plan), the better approach would be for Regular Speed trains on the Fright Lines along the above lines as a started (and these should run 8 to 10 times a day). The only line that does this at present is the East Coast line. We need more service before we need speed, and that requires new trains and engines, upgrading the present rail system to be able to take high speed trains and installing additional lines along the Main Rail lines so the Passenger train are not slowed down or stopped by Fright lines. The Train from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh is always late, do to such delays and that it only runs once a day basically kills it as a means of transportation. More trains will permit more people to use trains but that takes more money than anyone is willing to spend today.

[YOY]

46. Pretty sure our trains are made in Canada

European type model perhaps but made in Canada.

True, Amtrak regular lines uses freight rails. But Acela doesn't. They use our own lines I'm pretty sure. It might beat up the freight cars a bit if they did.

[Warpy]

4. We've got a short line here in NM

which will eventually be 100 miles long when it reaches Santa Fe by the end of the year (significantly ahead of schedule).

It's already seeing increased ridership as gas prices continue to make commuting from the north-south exurbs prohibitively expensive.

Eventually, it's going to mean the survival of these exurbs.

I would always prefer to ride a decent train than drive or fly.

[LibDemAlways]

5. Europe's train system puts the U.S. to shame.

Yesterday I had occasion to ride Amtrak from Moorpark, CA to Santa Barbara - a trip that took just under an hour and a half. By car with no traffic it can be done in an hour. The ticket machine at the station was broken. The train was dirty. The return train was over 40 minutes late. It was a less than stellar experience.

I'm not even going to wish for high speed rail. That would be too much to ask - at least on the west coast. I'd be satisfied with efficient transportation that somebody cared enough about to keep clean and running reasonably on time. And for God's sake, provide a working ticket machine!

[YOY]

8. Actually we're working on it.

I know the guys chugging along on the new machine at this very moment.

We are underfunded in some areas.

The LA to SF HSR...I thought someone was working on it but it's not my sector/corridor.

[marmar]

30. The US Rail System is light-years behind Europe or Japan.....

.... and it's a major catch-up operation. Standing on a platform at Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, Amsterdam Centraal or Paris' Gare du Nord will make you break down in tears of jealousy.

And it's a shame, because there are so many U.S. corridors that would be well served by rail. For example, the Detroit-Chicago route features 3 Amtrak trains a day...AND more than 40 flights on four different airlines!!!! The Great Lakes/Midwest (Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago-Milwaukee-MSP-St. Louis); the California Coast; Florida's and Texas' big cities; and naturally the Boston-DC corridor are natural regions for high-speed.

[magellan]

9. I rode the Bullet Train from Tokyo to Osaka in 1983

It moved at speeds topping 200mph. The train was clean and punctual. I don't remember how long the ride was, I just remember enjoying it immensely.

25 years later and I'm still wondering why we haven't followed suit. Maybe it's true: we just aren't as efficient as the Japanese.

Or the Europeans.

[YOY]

12. 186 mph were the max in those days. (not to be persnickety)

It's a train thang!

[magellan]

36. Really?

It seemed faster! ;)

No quibble. My main memory is of our wooden box lunch, and how gorgeous the countryside was as it flew by.

[eppur_se_muova]

38. You were probably counting kilometers per hour (nearly 300).

;)

[magellan]

41. Ah, who knows

For some reason 200 is stuck in my head for the Bullet Train's top speed when we rode it. But my gray cells aren't as young as they used to be. lol

[YOY]

40. Those Japanese lunches are fun!

The JR-Maglev in Japan goes over 340 MPH (Nearly half the speed of sound and in a straight line!) now though. We want one so baaaaad! Imagine the NEC (North East Corridor) of the US! You'd get to NYC from DC in about an hour and with all the stops in Baltimore, Wilmington, and Philly. You'd be in Boston in under two hours!

[14thColony]

14. I travel from London to Brussels on occasion for work

Two hours from central London to central Brussels via Eurostar. A CNN International travel segment from last years says the train-vs-plane 'time horizon' for most Europeans is now 4 hrs - if the train will take that time or less, they'll go by train even if the plane journey itself is faster. A few years ago that calculus was 2.5 hours. Reason: much less hassle at train stations than airports, and trains usually drop you off in the city center versus some airport out in the hinterlands.

[tanyev]

15. High-speed rail would be the perfect connector for the major cities in Texas.

Though Southwest Airline would certainly disagree.

[AndyTiedye]

18. Kicked onto the "Greatest" Page

Bring on the trains!

[barbtries]

19. that would be great.

i'd happily hop a normal speed train every morning from raleigh to chapel hill and every evening to get back home...

[hogwyld]

22. Would also to love seeing HSR

Between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA. Anyone who's done the "slog" would understand...

[PurgedVoter]

24. I would like to dedicate this K&R to American Airlines!

Go trains go!

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. How does fare compare?

Have heard that Amtrak cost is nearly as much as flying. Is it the same in Europe?

[YOY]

33. Depends on from where to where

and if one is traveling regular Amtrak or Acela.

Europe can be cheaper. We get pushes to raise fares.

[On the Road]

35. While It is True High-Speed Rail is Popular,

Airfare is still much cheaper between most European cities that have flights.

[NNadir]

47. Not if you include external costs.

If you fly in Europe, you are necessarily producing dangerous fossil fuel waste.

In west central Europe, France mostly, one can ride a train with very little environmental impact.

There's a huge difference, since the dumping of dangerous fossil fuel waste is highly subsidized in health, environmental damage, and crop costs.

[On the Road]

48. Well, the Original Post Claimed

that high-speed rail was killing the airplane. In Western Europe the new low-cost airlines are actually putting a dent in high-speed rail, even with current oil prices.

[Nihil]

52. For selective figures that is true.

You will always be able to find bargain prices between point A and point B
but there are several points that stay in the trains' favour:
- National railways don't often go broke overnight (unlike low-cost airlines).
- There is no comparison between the comfort of an intercity train and the
total lack of comfort of an EasyJet (or similar) sardine-can with wings.
- The ever-growing check-in time makes a major difference to a journey.
- Most people will allow a "premium" to avoid the TSA (& co) morons.
- Everyone has responsibility for their own luggage - it doesn't get lost!

The above are not all "price" issues but they are all "value for money" ones
and that is the basis of any price discussion. To take each one in turn:
- No need to pay for insurance against carrier failure.
- Arriving at the far end in a relaxed state equates to greater enjoyment
(for leisure travel) and greater efficiency (for business travel).
- Time is money for most people these days: adding the time to travel to
the airport to that consumed by check-in, passport control and security
farce means that although the flight is much quicker, the end-to-end time
often breaks even.
- Think of it as an idiot avoidance tax (to replace the various ticket taxes)
- No insurance required and no inconvenience inflicted.

> In Western Europe the new low-cost airlines are actually putting a dent
> in high-speed rail

This is true only for those travellers who have the flexibility to run
to whatever schedule the cheap wings run (including taking the hassle of
random cancellations into account = no business travellers) and who are
totally happy with a truly minimal comfort service. That portion of the
market wouldn't travel by rail anyway - they would have driven their cars
and caught the overnight ferry.

:shrug:

[NNadir]

42. Good.

[tomreedtoon]

50. And the Florida Democrats killed high=speed trains!

That's slightly untrue...as I keep reminding you, there IS no Florida Democratic Party, only a bunch of Republicans with donkey pins. But anyway, after voter initiatives twice recommended high-speed trains, the legislature killed it. They would rather spend their precious money won through Lotto to fatten their own salaries.]

[Nihil]

51. Yay! (K&R)

:toast: :bounce: :beer: :woohoo: :party: