Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Federal energy subsidies. ALL of them. Every last damn one of them.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:26 PM
Original message
Federal energy subsidies. ALL of them. Every last damn one of them.
There's been a lot of contention recently over subsidies given to different kinds of energy production. The argument is that certain "flavors" of energy are privileged while others are treated like the proverbial red-headed stepchild. You know that yours is the One True and Valid Opinion, but you're having difficulty finding the right "ammunition" to send all those a-holes who oppose you running, weeping in humiliation. Right?

The answer to many, if not all, of your unasked questions can be found at the Department of Energy's http://www.eia.doe.gov/">Energy Information Administration. This is an excellent resource, especially after all the unsupported Internet flaming one faces by merely writing particular words, even in light gray italic 3-point type.

A list of http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/SearchResults.asp?title=&product=&submit2=A-Z%2BList%2Bof%2Bpublications">1328 of the 1.6 brazillion free reports can be found here. (Best of all, they're 100% Britney-free! And what could be better than that?)

Of special interest are the popular and critically-acclaimed Subsidies and Interventions reports:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/service/emeu9202.pdf">Federal Energy Subsidies Direct and Indirect Interventions in Energy Markets (1/1/1992) SR/EMEU/92-02
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/service/oiaf0002.pdf">Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 1999: Energy Transformation & EndUse (5/1/2000) SR/OIAF-2000-02
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/service/oiaf9903.pdf">Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 1999: Primary Energy (9/1/1999) SR/OIAF/99-03
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/service/srcneaf(2008)01.pdf">Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 2007 (4/9/2008) (not yet coded for the ol' database-a-rooney)

Clooney and Pitt are said to be currently negotiating with Miramax over the screen rights.

In addition, there is an http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy2/pdf/execsum.pdf">Executive Summary for Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 2007. If you are a "subsidy-head", this is required reading. It's only 8 pages long, and it's got pictures. (Okay, it's got tables. But they're quick and dirty, just the way you like them.)

But there's so much more! The EIA website is a goldmine of data for all the issues we enjoy discussing like sexually frustrated prehistoric ice weasels fighting over the carcass of a woolly mammoth in red pumps.

Here is the http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/forecasting.html">Forecasts and Analysis page. Most of the links on this page lead to other, rich sources of official data, audited and paid for by your taxes (if you are a citizen of the USA). There are reports on a number of hot-button issues, which here tend to be Lieberman-Warner, the Alaska National Wildlife Reserve (ANWR) and nuclear energy generation.

Are your energy production and consumption thoughts captivated by the exotic locales of China or Mexico? Does your pulse quicken when you hear the phrase "Ku-Maloob-Zaap"? A http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/special_topics.html">Special Topics page can be found here.

It is my sincere and heartfelt hope that posting these links leads to the resolution of all outstanding disputes, settles all arguments, and will usher in a 1000-year era of peace and harmony on DU/EE.

--p!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. The list does not include the dangerous fossil fuel waste dumping subsidy.
The use of the atmosphere, land, oceans, and fresh water as dangerous fossil fuel waste dumps are not included.

These dumps cost trillions of dollars.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ice weasels?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. What's wrong with ice weasels?
Never met one I didn't like...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I'm not one to undermine a man's simile...
Nope.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. You know, I have spent a lot of time on the EIA website, and never found these links.
I think I'll steal these links and use them at another website where I sometimes write.

I'm sure you won't mind.

This is rich, though not quite as rich as a yuppie brat with $100,000 worth of solar cells and a real, real, real, real, real cool Tesla sports car.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. I get the impression that you're upset about something
And yet, I'm strangely reluctant to dig into byzantine government reports to find the answer.

Could you provide some sort of "program" as to what is on your mind?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not once did I read the words "solar pool heater", or even "world's largest".
I call total, unmitigated bullshit. A complete load of rubbish. A smoldering heap of useless folderol covered in bat guano!

Hold on... I think I see a woolly mammoth in red pumps over yonder, and she's beckoning me with her sexiest "come hither" look. Pardon me while I go deplete my spinning reserve for a spell....

:freak:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. 544 Billion more for nuclear power in Leiberman Warner Bill
http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/environmental-groups-lead-effo-003136.php

"Friends of the Earth and five other national environmental and public interest groups are stepping up efforts to block what they contend are at least $544 billion in taxpayer subsidies for the nuclear power industry included in the Lieberman-Warner bill, which is expected to be considered by the Senate in early June.

“Although the word ‘nuclear’ has been carefully omitted from the bill, it is clear that this is a covert attempt to bolster a failing nuclear power industry in the name of addressing climate change,” Brent Blackwelder, president of Friends of the Earth stated. “It’s time to focus on real global warming solutions like solar, wind and energy efficiency, not to further fatten the moribund nuclear calf.”

"After 50 years of unresolved safety and waste disposal issues, it perplexes many Americans why Congress would support massive subsidies for the nuclear industry," added John Passacantando, Executive Director of Greenpeace USA.

"Nuclear power is a dirty and dangerous distraction from real global warming solutions. When both Wall Street and Warren Buffet think nuclear is a risky investment, Congress should not waste American tax dollars to further subsidize this 1950s technology."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It would appear however, that no amount of money spent on so called "renewables" can make them work.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 09:50 PM by NNadir
The nuclear power subsidy is too small for a time of climate change.

Something that produces 8 exajoules out of 100 exajoules of American use without a single loss of life is OBVIOUSLY underfunded, unless of course, except in the minds of illiterate shit-for-brains paranoids who can't count.

On the other hand, in a time of growing poverty, it is a waste of money to spend 4 billion dollars per year on yuppie toys that do nothing in this critical human fight. Billions of dollars have been thrown down this hole over decades and still - in 2008 with carbon dioxide approaching 400 ppm - is it capable of producing even ONE exajoule.

I note, with contempt, that there is NOT ONE anti-nuke on this website who gives a rat's ass about the dangerous fossil fuel subsidy, mainly because the anti-nukes couldn't care less about dangerous fossil fuel waste, dangerous fossil fuel war, dangerous fossil fuel terrorism, dangerous fossil fuel depletion, or dangerous fossil fuel accidents. I note with even more contempt, that there is not one fundie anti-nuke on this website who can or will face the OBVIOUS fact that every highway bill, every gram of mercury scattered on the earth, every billion tons of carbon dioxide dumped without restriction into the atmosphere represents a dangerous fossil fuel subsidy.

The nuclear subsidy should be, worldwide, in the trillions of dollars on an emergency basis, since it works.

Nuclear works.

Ignorance kills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You should read a newspaper once in awhile.
It would help you to avoid appearing so, well, "ignorant....."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. There is a bias against renewable at the EIA under Bush
It is a well known fact that Bush has injected politics into all areas of information collection and dissemination on science. If anyone requires evidence of that you've been in a coma.

It is easy to confirm the existence of this bias at the EIA in regards to renewables. Every year for the past ten years the rate of growth for renewables has been between 25-50%. Every year for the past ten years the EIA has forecast a rate of growth for the coming year to be about 2%.

A reading of their various analysis shows the same tendency to ignore the potential/actual status of renewable. There are a few reports in their archives that deal well with the topic; however the bulk of the information they produce regarding renewables is subject closer scrutiny.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Apparently, without citing a single reference, you declare yourself more worthy than the EIA.
Since you cite no evidence for your contention - as ususal.

Then you engage in mathematically illiterate "percent talk" - the staple of the faith based "renewables will save us" crowd.

95% of 0.00001 is still a small number.

In fact the only bias I see here belongs to the "renewables will save us" crowd, which is entirely a faith based community, equivalent to the faith based anti-evolution community.

I could cite the numbers from the Government of New Zealand about how their "renewables will save us" program is failing to confront the dangerous fossil fuel emergency that confronts humanity, but almost certainly you would offer a faith based answer consisting wholly of a statment that "What I say is true because I am the one who says it."

This moral solipsism is appalling, especially since ignorance kills.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I gave the evidence - EIA yearly forecasts - dig them out if you don't believe me.
How much do you get paid per post?

Whatever it is, they aren't getting their money's worth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Is there a paper, publication from a reliable source?
that would give us a grand unified look at how to solve the problem of world and US energy demand?

One that looks fairly, with expertice, and without bias and all the options and presents a unified plan?

This can't be that hard. Yes, it's complicated, but the variables are finite.

A.) The US and the world need energy.

B) We know roughly how much we need and for what various pursuits.

C.) We know the options:



D.) The now debate is simply about getting the right mix.

But, because of emotional components, big money involved, dire consequences to the planet and the people ( back to emotional component, too)
it seems the debate gets bogged down and we debate windmills versus nukes with out a clear picture of how to do it.

What's an ideal mix? There is all this data out there--has any reputable scientist, policy maker provided an unbiased and accurate, practical plan?





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. In the Scientific Literature, a report on the three major collection schemes, EIA, IAE, and WGII
Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 11:17 AM by NNadir
is reported in Energy (2007) 1478–1483 by Douglas Lightfoot, Global Environmental and Climate Change Centre, McGill University.

Our little fundementalist's misrepresentations aside, the International Energy Agency and IPCC Working group calculations for so called "renewable energy" are remarkably consistent.

For 2003 the figures for so called renewable energy reported a difference of 0.05 exajoules, with the IEA reporting 2.21 exajoules out of the 500 exajoules now required by humanity.

Basically when they hear something that they don't want to hear, our fundies just make stuff up.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. NNadir- why do you think there is so much resistence to nuclear
Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 11:35 AM by bluedawg12
energy, here on this forum? I can see there have been spirited debates and by now, it appears that both sides have plied the bandwidth with data and yet- we are at odds.

Is it simply a matter of an emotional reaction to the very idea of nuclear anything?

Is it related to the fear of nuclear spillage?

Is it because it is precieved as just more big business? Government give-aways and subsidies?

How did you happen to form your opinion? Just researched it? Or is it in your line of work or study?

You know- it's a little sad-- folks here have probably put more good thought and research into their positions than the average person will, ever want to do, or has time to do...and we seem to be going in circles.


p.s. Thank you for the links and references.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I was pro-Nnewcuelur until I started reading Nnadir's posts.
Now I'd rather burn endangered animals for heat. And I don't think I'm alone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. May I gently suggest...
...that personality is not the best thing to be basing your decision on? Throw-rocks-at-NNadir is a (probably justifiably) popular pass-time in E/E, but it doesn't lead to much hard science. Yes, NNadir is a grumpy arrogant fucker, but stretch your brain a little and try to look at the reality behind what he's saying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. First, in honor of your gentleness, I will quote Yitzak Rabin.
Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 07:00 PM by NNadir
"One cannot make peace with one's friends. One can only make peace with one's enemies."

The sentiment you express so succinctly is worthy and very clearly on a high moral level.

That said, I am not at a high moral level, inasmuch as I freely and unrelentingly express my contempt.

What I note of Yitzak Rabin and for that matter, Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King, is that they were all shot.

Thus I am not interested in making peace with these people whatsoever. I consider that they are engaged in the active act of trying to kill my children through poisoning with dangerous fossil fuel waste. Their attempt to vandalize the Oyster Creek nuclear plant is not an abstraction with me. It is, on the contrary, involved with my children's lung tissue.

Quoth I more than a year ago:

I cannot prevent bad things from happening to my sons. I put my little guy on the school bus this morning and that is dangerous, because there could be a patch of ice, or poorly maintained brakes. I try to advocate for school bus safety, but I am fully aware that something could go wrong. You can't do much more than minimize the probability of death or injury to your children. I want my children to have the best chance possible to thrive, to be healthy, to experience all the intense beauty of the world for as long as they can. So I'm writing all about nuclear power for a wholly selfish reason, to protect my own. More nuclear reactors in my view will give everybody's children, including my own, their best shot.



Profile of A "Dangerous Nuclear Waste:" Cesium, Part 3.

I have added the bold for this occasion.

To answer some of your other questions, I believe that the failure to "agree" on this matter goes back much further than the twentieth century when the last form of new primary energy was discovered - that would be nuclear energy. (Solar power, wind power, biofuel power and even coal and oil have been in use for many thousands of years, though none on a scale to support one billion people, never mind 6 billion people.)

The reason I say this argument is older than nuclear energy is pretty simple. Some people subsist totally on faith and its sister, dogma, and others live only for morsels of reason.

I note that one of the world's first known expositors of the nature of reason - that would be Socrates - was forced to drink poison. It wasn't because he relied in his arguments on the Bandwagon Fallacy that he was forced to drink hemlock. It wasn't because a rival group was competing with him for control of a Temple of Zeus. On the contrary, he was forced to kill himself because he elevated the value of reason over faith.

In general, those who rely on faith are entirely driven emotions - almost all of them irrational - and fear is almost always near the top of the list. But appeal to fear does not explain the entire thing.

Consider this. Lots of these hooples have driven to giant solar festivals to talk about how wonderful solar energy is. They post this kind of crap here all the time, about how noble their attendance at the solar road shows is. Now, about 50,000 people die - in the United States alone - from automobile accidents. By contrast zero people die each year in the United States from nuclear accidents. Thus, with appeal to pure reason, one might ask whether it is more dangerous to drive to a solar festival than to live next to a nuclear power plant.

Mind you. These people fall all over themselves trying to put lipstick on the car culture pig. To a man and woman they all have some kind of cult around the Amory Lovins, hydrogen HYPErcar, kind of rhetoric, presumably believing that if they all wish hard enough Lovins' fantasy cars will not only allow them to live in their obscene 12,000 watt lifestyle, but somehow they will be able to drive a massive self propelled vehicle that will talismanically protect them from accidents.

Now for the question of spills: These people couldn't care less if dangerous fossil fuel leaks all all over a street and ignites the street. They couldn't care less about any of the vast dangerous fossil fuel leaks that have destroyed marine biospheres for centuries. They do not care if dangerous fossil fuel waste is deliberately leaked into the atmosphere. Not one of them takes the dangerous fossil fuel waste from their cars - which they may have used to drive to solar festivals - and collects it in a balloon that they store "in their backyards" for eternity.

Thus fear of leaks is not involved.

As for fear of big business, my view - contemptuous as always - is that these types are generally paranoid libertarians of the "I'm going to hole up in Idaho with 10,000 rounds, 100,000 gallons of gasoline, and a ten year supply of grain" type. They couldn't care less about co-operation on a grand scale because in general, they are self absorbed solipsists. The construction of a nuclear power plant involves the interaction and difficult intense education of many of thousands of people, even tens of thousands of people. Holing up in Idaho with a bag of gold, some guns and some solar cells involves, often, just one person, the solipsist himself or herself.

As for the etiology of my nuclear opinions let me say this: I grew up on Long Island in New York. When I was a small kid, LILCO proposed building 3 nuclear reactors, one in Shoreham - which became famous because it was built and prevented from operating by ignorance - and two others, one in Jamesport, on the North Fork, and the other in Lloyd's Neck.

The last of these proposals accounts for a critical development in the anti-nuclear movement, since Lloyd's Neck is one of the wealthiest places in the world, and it was just so back then. I personally knew people who lived in this community - mostly through my parent's church. They were no smarter than anyone else - they were born into their wealth mostly - and most of them had very cushy jobs that they got through connections. These were people who controlled lots of things, including but not limited to, advertising.

This was a set that was strong on contempt. They understood that power plants are things that are built in poor people's communities, not in Lloyd's Neck. Knowing that there are few appeals to the public that are more powerful than self-referential ignorance, they engineered a campaign of selective attention because someone had the unmitigated gall to propose a power plant in their backyard.

LILCO quickly abandoned the Lloyd's Neck proposal, but it was too late. One thing that one cannot stop is a rabid mob convinced of its own righteousness.

Who, here, among us, was in that rabid mob?

So far as I know, I am the only writer on this website in this forum who was active in the fight against Shoreham.

This was a great disgrace, and I have never stopped feeling the guilt over what I did. I cannot excuse myself on the grounds that I was young. There is an interview with Traudl Junge, Hitler's secretary, who was 22 when she went to work for the infamous murderer, recorded just before she died in her 80's during which she confessed that - given the existence of Sophie Scholl, almost exactly her age, who gave her life to oppose the Nazis - that mere youth is no excuse.

My writings here, are, in part, expiation for my crime.

My change of opinion about nuclear energy occurred shortly after Chernobyl blew up. Let's face it. This accident was the worst imaginable. Almost the entire core of a large nuclear reactor precisely at its most radioactive moment - the end of its fuel cycle at full power - exploded under the most active volatilization conditions imaginable.

I fully expected this accident to be comparable to the black plague, or at least a major war.

It was no such thing. Kiev, for instance, is still there. It is a thriving city and from what I read, an interesting and exciting place to live.

As I contemplated the accident before the survival of Kiev was a foregone conclusion, I was compelled to look in the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics to find the half lives of some major isotopes reported by the press to have been released.

I noted a column called "neutron capture cross sections," a concept of which I knew little at the time. Certain kinds of ideas - few of which proved to be original - began to turn over in my mind.

I have always been involved in work that requires review of the scientific literature. This event, Chernobyl, set in motion a process of critical thinking wherein I got my hands on every single piece of literature about nuclear technology I could get my hands on. It was fascinating because while few of my ideas proved at first to be original - I soon found that many of the things I thought were original had been thought of long before I thought of them - many of the later ones I developed, I think, are unique.

Of course, part of this process of obsessive investigation - and there is no other word for it other than "obsessive" allowed me to understand the origins of the anti-nuke position - my own and that of the oppressively dumb anti-nukes who persist here - and it has allowed me to understand in very, very, very, very, very, very precise terms that all of these arguments fall apart in the absence of ignorance.

Internationally the wolf is at the door. Now, more than at other time in history, we are morally obligated to scream that ignorance kills.

All of my writings are screams. I cannot help it. Every morning when I get up I have to face the children. It is their flesh, and not my car and lifestyle, that I am trying to save.

Thank you though, for your appeal to peace. I am sorry that I find myself explaining why I reject it.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. man o man
what a work
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thanks.
I'm sure that you are one of the fundies here who drives his car to anti-nuke rallies.

Heckuva job.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Thank you for that post and the manner in which you phrased it.
It presented a calm, honest perspective that a number of newer readers
needed to see in order to understand some of the less calm, more vicious
rants that you have also posted over time.

The points you make are good and should be taken on board by anyone who
is still open-minded enough to debate nuclear energy (rather than being
dogmatically opposed to it).

I understand what you mean by your "obligation to scream" - everyone has
this from time to time - but would ask that you also retain some of the
above calm *at times* in order that your "screams" don't just trigger
knee-jerk "counter-screams" and drown the signal in the ensuing noise.
That signal

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Sheesh
My change of opinion about nuclear energy occurred shortly after Chernobyl blew up. Let's face it. This accident was the worst imaginable. Almost the entire core of a large nuclear reactor precisely at its most radioactive moment - the end of its fuel cycle at full power - exploded under the most active volatilization conditions imaginable.

I fully expected this accident to be comparable to the black plague, or at least a major war.

It was no such thing. Kiev, for instance, is still there. It is a thriving city and from what I read, an interesting and exciting place to live.


Hiroshima and Nagasakai are also thriving cities that are interesting places to live. What does that have to do with anything?

soon found that many of the things I thought were original had been thought of long before I thought of them - many of the later ones I developed, I think, are unique.

In precisely the same way that a random word generator produces unique thoughts. Before the Cold War ended I worked in the Air Force planning for the aftermath of nuclear war. I had a couple of people that I trained who reacted as you describe yourself in this post. They were sent for psychological evaluation and removed from the program.
Get help. Seriously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I didn't say anything about the IEA, I said the EIA.
But since you mention it, the IEA is tasked primarily with ensuring the petroleum supplies of the OEDC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. This is a new high in bad thinking, and the anti-nuke community is really adept at bad thinking.
I said you didn't produce evidence, first off.

You didn't then, and you don't now.

You asserted with no support whatsoever that the EIA was lying when it produced data showing that the renewable yuppie toys of solar, wind, geothermal and including garbage burning deliberately falsified the data to make the renewable faith look as ridiculous as it is.

Then I produced evidence - a referenced paper in a refereed scientific journal that is part of the primary scientific literature - that independent international bodies produce data that essentially agree with the data to you have - arbitrarily and with not a shred of authority - alleged to be fallacious.

Now you say that because you didn't mention the existence of the independent international that they are therefore irrelevant.

You must think that your babbling here are impressive, since you allege that you are to be accepted and believed because you are you.

I call this solipsism.

I note that you call on all of humanity to destroy the world's largest, by far, source of climate change gas free primary energy simply because you say so.

In your tenure here, I've seen some real whoppers, the best, up until now, being the time that you asked me to prove the negative statement that "Renewable energy can't produce the world's energy." That was classic bad thinking, of the famous "Prove God doesn't exist" variety, or "prove that the galaxy will not explode before climate change kills a billion people" variety. But just when I thought you couldn't top that, you throw another such statement into the mix.

I am here to fight ignorance, to confront ignorance, because allowing ignorance to pass kills.

Got it?

No?

Why am I not surprised?

I often say of my critics that if they didn't exist, I'd have to invent them. But with all the wit I could muster, I really don't think I could invent this.

I've encountered so many weak thinkers over the years I can't possibly remember them all. But I will always remember you.

"I didn't mention the IEA, therefore it's irrelevant." Wooooo. You can't make this stuff up.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. All of that writing just to support a straw man.
Review my original comment. I stated that the rate of growth in wind for the past ten years has been between 25-50%. In spite of that, the EIA has predicted each year over that same time period that the rate of growth for the coming year would be around 2%. If you don't believe that feel free to look it up in their Annual Energy Outlook for the given years.

It is my opinion, based on the well documented behavior of the Bush administration, that this erroneous forecast is deliberate in that it serves a political/economic goal of the Bush backers by discouraging interest in investment in renewables.

Now, if you'd care to address the actual arguments I made, feel free.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. We don't have command and control economies
Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 11:34 AM by kristopher
I would say there are two basic divisions - the conservatives, who favor the current grid structured around central control (either political or economic) of energy, and the liberals, who favor a system of distributed energy production based on renewable resources.

Energy analysts specializing in the transition to renewables gather the information you are asking for over a period of several years from a variety of perspectives. I've studied (in an academic environment) everything from the present grid and generating infrastructure; through all the available and potential generating and storage technologies; the legal, policy and political frameworks affecting adoption of technologies; social, cultural and environmental structures and movements; and state, national, and international law as it pertains to energy.

There is no 'master plan' out there since the matter is one that has too many variables and too many actors to make such a recommendation meaningful. However, there is a pretty strong consensus that the path I've been describing is pretty much the way things are bound to shake out. The main impetus behind this thinking has been climate change, but the rising price of energy and the misbegotten son-of-a-whore's war in Iraq have moved the pieces pretty far down the gameboard.

The general picture is one where battery electric personal transportation fleets are the heart of a developing renewable infrastructure. Depending on how our understanding of the time-line for global warming firms up, there may or may not be a need to resort to nuclear power.

The people posting to the contrary are either seriously uninformed or working on behalf of monied interests representing the nuclear or fossil fuel industries. Since Reagan's first term this group has had total control of our energy policy and have worked to construct a coordinated, well organized disinformation campaign. Since 1992, they have worked through their media outlets and conservative think tanks to convince the public that 'environmentalism' is a threat larger than that once represented by communism. Of course, since they operate out of a sense of fear, they required an enemy to fill the void left by the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Kristopher- great overview...
Edited on Wed Jun-18-08 12:39 PM by bluedawg12
Thank you Kristopher-

That was a great overview.

>>Of course, since they operate out of a sense of fear, they required an enemy to fill the void left by the collapse of the Soviet Union.<<

Yup, the neocon wet dream–keep the people off balance–even against their own interests- we are easier to control that way. Perpetual war- perpetual fear.

>>The people posting to the contrary are either seriously uninformed or working on behalf of monied interests representing the nuclear or fossil fuel industries. <<

What I see here is some very informed articulate people on both sides- even passionate- so either they are:

Articulate but misinformed.
Willfully spreading misinformation/disinformation.
Or simply, they are correct/partly correct, and passionate.

For those of us on the sidelines- it takes some effort to unravel things–but I am working on it.

>>There is no 'master plan' out there since the matter is one that has too many variables and too many actors to make such a recommendation meaningful. <<

Ya’ know, I always wonder about that secret meeting that darthdick had with the energy czars, early on, I wonder what that horse and pony show added up to. It was about oil and the greater good of cheaper oil by invading Iwreck– I venture to say. That worked out nicely.:sarcasm:

The way this is shaping up in my mind, in terms of potential solutions–now, whether this is something that would happen is another story.

Investments tend to fuel and even precede policy and investors tend to hop on board the special of the day. Recently, it was ethanol–willy nilly. Now, they are closing four plants! So,in many ways, market forces are brainless exercises in financial opportunism...not that there is anything wrong with brainless investment and opportunism - LOL- if it alights on the correct solution.

Some parts of the country are better suited than others for various options.

Geothermal may work for the pacific NW- as someone here pointed out.

Coastline communities may be well suited for wind, as might vast swatches of open spaces, out west or the great plains midwest.

Solar, on a mass commercial level may be well suited for sunny parts of the nation.

However, take some place like Cleveland or Chicago.

Little sunlight, less space for fields of windmills.

High population density and industry. People are financially stressed, many near breaking point especially in the rust belt and people are accustomed to a big energy provider. They want to turn on the lights, the a-c, or TV and not worry about their solar panels facing the right direction, nor installing them, nor anything else... I hate to say this...but people are accustomed to energy on demand. Let the Edison plant worry about how the heck they make electricity. Now, that's just my humble take on the good folks in the rust belt, mid west, region see things. It's always been centralized utilities and always shall be, for home energy.

Urban centers such as those would need steady, year round, reliable sources of a large amount of energy and that’s where it seems to me the nuclear energy would be an option. People are not going to care if energy comes in EJ's or watts or whatever...they expect 21st century technology to put energy into their home...as it has always been..well, since the 20th century..and their parents.

Yes, individual home owners could convert to something like solar- but, that is expensive currently and requires many alterations to a home for maximal energy efficiency and more dollars....at a time when most blue collar folks just want to pay their bills, have a job (!), some access to health care, reasonable cost of food. In some ways, converting private homes to say, solar, is more for wealthy and to some extent educated people, I just don’t see solar panels on the roofs in say Gary, or Chicago or Cleveland.

I guess, it comes down to this, about residential power supply–

a.) have a big utility company do it for you–( now coal, later nuke? or in some regions wind or solar)–which is the model everyone is used to, or

b.) do it yourself, fund it, maintain it...etc..etc...which I just don’t think is going to happen in urban centers.


In short: it would likely be a blend of options, depending on local factors ( climate, population, etc).

I see wind, sun, and geothermal as more along the west coast, SW, maybe the great plains and I get the notion that nuclear would be the way to go for the old urban centers–Baltimore, NY, Chicago, Cleveland, Gary, etc.

Next, I am trying to think through what might happen on a macro level–down to the micro level- ex.: personal transportation.

Nothing against public transport- but there simply ain't none in many places. I was talking to a friend, a good Democrat, from Kansas, a hard working, single mom, nurse, and intelligent and aware person--and she said everything is so far from her home--grocery store, work, that there is no way around personal transport..her car. Ditto, from a same type person in Oklahoma..the store is 30 miles way and she has a toddler to feed. Sorry, she ain't riding a bike to get milk.

About fuel for cars: probably not ethanol, now that food prices are climbing...but...some form of electric car....and hopefully someday–hydrogen car.

Electric cars could be powered up from a centralized source–which would make electricity from region appropriate central energy makers.

Anyway, that’s kind of how it’s shaping up in my noggin, from what I am hearing here.

Thoughts gang?


Am I crazy...or on the right track? ( OK..maybe crazy...but still...)











Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. As you wrote...
What I see here is some very informed articulate people on both sides- even passionate- so either they are:

Articulate but misinformed.
Willfully spreading misinformation/disinformation.
Or simply, they are correct/partly correct, and passionate.

For those of us on the sidelines...


You may not see it "from the sideline", but those of us with training certainly do. The only people who are passionate about it are those who have either bought into the misinformation, or have participated in forming it.

Check recent peer review work:
Ambrose, Jay. 2003. What Progress Doesn’t Get You. Scripps Howard News Service, Febru-
ary 11. LexusNexus Online.
Anderson, Terry, and Donald Leal. 1991. Free Market Environmentalism. San Francisco,
CA: Paciac Research for Public Policy/Westview Press.
Arnold, Ron, and Alan Gottlieb. 1994. Trashing the Economy: How Runaway Environmental-
ism is Wrecking America. Bellevue, WA: Free Enterprise Press/Merril Press.
Bailey, Ronald. 1993. Eco-Scam: the False Prophets of the Ecological Apocalypse. New York,
NY: St. Martin’s Press.
_______. 1995. The True State of the Planet. New York, NY: The Free Press.
Bailey Ronald, ed. 2000. Earth Report 2000. New York, NY: McGraw Hill.
Balint, Peter. 2003. How Ethics Shape the Policy Preferences of Scientists: What we can
Learn from Lomborg and his Critics. Politics and Life Sciences 22 (1): 14–23.
Balling, Robert. 1992. Heated Debate: Greenhouse Predictions versus Climate Reality. San
Francisco, CA: Paciac Research Institute for Public Policy.
Bast, Joseph, Peter Hill, and Richard Rue. 1994. Eco-Sanity: A Common-Sense Guide to En-
vironmentalism. Lanham, MD: Madison Books.
Bate, Roger. 1997. What Risk? Oxford: Butterworth-Heineman/Elsevier.
Barry, John. 1999. Environment and Social Theory. New York: Routledge.
Beamish, Thomas. 2002. Silent Spill: The Organization of Industrial Crisis. Cambridge, MA:
MIT Press.
110. Eckersley 2004 attempts to valiantly “rescue” the state from these problems, but even her ef-
forts indicate radical breaks in who and what would count in a Green State. E.g., she argues
that non-human nature, animals in particular, would need to be incorporated into her ambit
claim of a deliberative ecological democracy.
Beck, Ulrich. 1992. TheRiskSociety:TowardsaNewModernity. Newbery Park, CA: Sage.
Beckerman, Wilfred. 1996. ThroughGreenColoredGlasses: EnvironmentalismReconsidered.
Washington, D.C.: Cato Institute.
_______. 2002. APovertyof Reason: SustainableDevelopment andEconomicGrowth. Oak-
land, CA: Independent Institute.
Bell,Derek.2005.LiberalEnvironmentalCitizenship.Environmental Politics14(2):179–
194.
Besley,John,andJamesShanahan.2004.SkepticismaboutMediaEffectsConcerningthe
Environment: ExaminingLomborg’sHypotheses. SocietyandNatural Resources17:
861–880.
Bolch, Ben, andHaroldLyons. 1993. ApocalypseNot: Science, EconomicsandEnvironmen-
talism.Washington, D.C.: Cato Institute.
Bookchin, Murray. 1991. Defendingthe Earth: ADialogue betweenMurray Bookchinand
DaveForman.edited by S. Chase. Boston, MA: South End Press.
Boykoff,Maxwell,andJulesBoykoff.2004.BalanceasBias:GlobalWarmingandtheUS
Prestige Press.Global Environmental Change14: 125–136.
Buell,Frederick.2003.FromApocalypsetoWayofLife:Environmental CrisisintheAmerican
Century.New York, NY: Routledge.
Carter, Neil, andMegHuby. 2005. Ecological CitizenshipandEthical Investment Envi-
ronmental Politics14 (2): 255–272.
Chew,Sing.2001.WorldEcological Degradation:Accumulation,Urbanization,andDeforesta-
tion.Lanham, MD: Altamira Press.
Christoff, Peter. 1996. Ecological CitizensandEcologicallyGuidedDemocracy. InDe-
mocracyandGreenPolitical Thought: Sustainability, Rights andCitizenship, editedby
B. Doherty and M. De Geus. New York, NY: Routledge.
Cobb, John. 1999. TheEarthistChallengetoEconomism: ATheological CritiqueoftheWorld
Bank.New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.
Coffman, Michael. 1992. Environmentalism!TheDawnofAquariusortheTwilightofaNew
DarkAge.Bangor, ME: Environmental Perspectives, Inc.
_______. 1994. Saviors of theEarth?ThePolitics andReligionof theEnvironmental Move-
ment.Chicago, IL: Northaeld Press.
Conca, Ken. 1993. Environmental ChangeandtheDeepStructureofWorldPolitics. In
The State and Social Power in Global Environmental Politics, editedby Ronnie
Lipschutz. New York, NY: Columbia University Press.
_______.2001.ConsumptionandtheEnvironmentinaGlobalEconomy.GlobalEnviron-
mental Politics1 (3): 53–71.
Conca, Ken, ThomasPrincen, andMichael Maniates. 2001. ConfrontingConsumption.
Global Environmental Politics1 (3): 1–10.
Diamond, Jared. 2004. Environment, Population, andHealth: StrategiesforaMoreSe-
cure World. Environmental ChangeandSecurityProjectReport10: 8–11.
_______. 2005. Collapse: HowSocieties ChoosetoFail or Succeed. NewYork, NY: Viking/
Alan Lane.
Dobson,Andrew.2003.CitizenshipandtheEnvironment.Oxford:OxfordUniversityPress.
Dobson, Andrew, andAngel ValenciaSáiz. 2005. Introduction. Environmental Politics14
(2): 157–162.
Dreven
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Sorry that got cut off.
I was posting the bibliography for a paper titled:
The Rear guard of Modernity: Environmental Skepticism as a Struggle
of Citizenship by Peter Jacques

His more recent paper has received a lot of attention also:
The Organisation of Denial: Conservative Think Tanks and Environmental Sceptism

Or you could read a very short monograph by Naomi Oreskes, a historian published in 7 OCTOBER2005 VOL 310 of SCIENCE

If you want more documentation, just ask.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you--that should keep me from driving around
for awhile..just sitting on my buttocks and reading! LOL.

Did you ever consider a ling bibliography can actually help the environment? heh heh.

Anyway, I appreciate it and just looking at some of the titles tells me about the interplay of politics, sociology and energy.

OK--on that level--and it is that level--where things get interesting and very complex.

Just listening to chimpy at his bully pulpit--using the same repug tricks of disinformation: short sound bites aimed at busy people and lazy journalists: drill off shore....lower gas prices...obstructionist congress...keeping your gas prices high...

Brilliant...simple...stupid....and very sadly effective.

The Dem response must be a non - nuanced, hard hitting, broadside on why the boyking and his employers--Bigsnakeoil are wrong.

I will save your references to my files.

Thanks again!

BD12
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-18-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. The sad thing is conservation ranks the lowest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. CONSUME! OBEY!
yeah, that's a pisser. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. That's it! Roddy Piper will save us!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. The future's so bright...
...I gotta wear shades



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC