There are parts of Maine that could “become uninhabitable” this winter.

[phantom power]

There are parts of Maine that could “become uninhabitable” this winter.

The words were those of U.S. Sen. Olympia Snowe and they came last week at a meeting of the Senate Small Business and Entrepreneurship Committee. Snowe is the ranking Republican member of the panel.

It wasn't rhetoric. It was a realistic evaluation of what some parts of northern New England may be facing in the winter of 2008-2009.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080708/GJOPINION_01/748806382

[ben_meyers]

1. Just another Repuke trying to scare people into drilling in

ANWR. Those people should just switch to solar and wind power.

[Buzz Clik]

3. Snowe voted to ban drilling in ANWR.

No one is going to accuse you of being a bleeding heart liberal. And how's the switch to solar and wind power going for you in Arizona? Do you have the state converted? All the air conditioners running on renewables, right?

[ben_meyers]

7. Well we do have the largest (gasp)nuclear plant in the country

just west of Phoenix. But everyone knows how dangerous that is.

[Buzz Clik]

8. Being a pragmatist, that doesn't bother me, as long as you have a plan for waste disposal.

[NNadir]

28. This would be in lieu, I assume, of demanding that the people of Maine have a plan

for dangerous fossil fuel waste disposal whenever they turn on their natural gas, oil, or coal furnaces.

They don't.

Of all the world's energy waste disposal issues, used nuclear fuel is the most trivial.

Not one person has been killed by it in the 50 year history of exajoule scale energy.

NOT ONE.

[Buzz Clik]

39. Hm. One of your pet peeves.

Waste from the burning of fossil fuels is, indeed, an issue.

Part of the differences in the history of health issues between nuclear and fossil fuel waste is a direct result of our perceptions of the two: People are petrified of nuclear waste and wisely keep it far away. On the contrary, people tend to be unconcerned about fossil fuel waste and don't seem to mind being bathed in it.

[losthills]

34. Nobody has a "plan" for nuclear waste "disposal."

There is no way to dispose of it.
So you might want to start feeling "bothered."

[Buzz Clik]

40. No plans? That certainly isn't true.

Many of the plans in the Europe are shockingly unwise. The plans in the U.S. consist of saying, "What am I gonna do with this crap?" We have the Yucca Mountain money pit, but we already have more waste than Yucca can hold. So, the spent fuel rods languish on-site in little pools of water.

Am I bothered? Oh, yeah.

[Marrah_G]

15. Ummmm, this is a serious issue

Maine, especially Northern Maine is not a wealthy area. The working poor cannot afford to just "switch". There is less and less money every month with rising gas and food costs.

Shit I am in Mass and in a place where Natural Gas is not available. I can barely afford to pay the bills, let alone install a frigging windmill or solar power.

The best I can hope to do is get a newer, more efficient oil or electric heater with some assistance from my parents......maybe.

[Zachstar]

18. Its that simple eh?

So I am sure you will pay for it right? ben_meyers?

[ben_meyers]

19. Of course not,

But what are you trying to say? Could it be that for now and the foreseeable future we are going to have to rely on oil, coal and nuclear energy? There isn't going to be a magic overnight solution to our energy needs?

The truth is that we will still have to insure a reliable and uninterrupted supply of oil. We still have to burn coal. Not every can afford to switch over to solar, wind and hybrid vehicles. Maybe some ice will melt, Polar Bears will have to adapt, Caribou might die and yes, wars will be fought over oil. But you are seeing the problem 1st hand. PEOPLE are going to die!

[jpak]

23. You can vote for McCain - again

:puke:

[ben_meyers]

31. And you have an answer for these people

What magic power source did you have in mind, can't heat a home on snark.

[jpak]

36. Yes I do - and no "magic" required

This is a fiscal crisis - not a technology crisis - for many Maine families. Heating oil and gas prices have overtaken their ability to adapt in the short term.

Firewood dealers can't ramp up fast enough - this year - to meet increased demand.

Pellet stove manufacturers can't ramp up fast enough to meet demand - this year.

Gas prices have severely hampered the ability of rural Mainers to make the transition to more fuel efficient vehicles - this year.

The (GOP/McCain) housing/credit crisis has hampered their ability to sell their homes and move closer to work/commerce - this year..

GOP?McCain opposition to LIHEAP funding, homeowner renewable energy tax credits, homeowner tax credits for energy efficient appliances, homeowner tax credits for energy efficient windows and insulation and COP/McCain opposition to support for public transit have left them without any options to make the transition away from oil - this year.

Maine has more than enough renewable resources to respond to the current crisis, but without relief from high heating oil prices - in the short term- many many Maine families will have a hard time coping - this year.

Congress has to step up and help these folks out this winter (and maybe next year).

If the feds can throw multi-billions at major banks for making bad loans - they can help out Mainers with their heating bills - this winter.

Families making <$50K should be eligible for $2000 in emergency grants for fossil heating fuels (oil/K1/propane) - this winter.

All taxpayers should be eligible for a $2000 tax credit for a a pellet stove or wood stove - until 2030.

All taxpayers should be eligible a $2000 tax credit for the purchase of Energy Star appliances- until 2030.

All homeowners should be eligible a $5000 tax credit for solar hot water heaters, solar hot air systems or PV systems - until 2030 - and a $.30/kWh feed-in tax credit for the first 5 years of operation of PV systems - until 2030.

All homeowners should have a $5000 tax credit for Energy Star window replacements, energy audits, insulation and add-on passive solar heating systems - until 2030.

All taxpayers should be eligible for a $5000 tax credit for cars getting >35 mpg - until 2015.

Congress should grant rural communities $200K/year to establish/operate public transit systems. Even a small "town bus" system would help. (and don't tell me buses "won't work" in rural Maine - tens of thousands of rural Maine students use buses every day during the school year).

Congress should provide tax credits for paper mills to produce ethanol from wood hemicellulose.

Congress should reinstate PTC for power and commercial solar electric - PTC that GOP/McCain oppose.

If Congress steps up and gets Mainers through this winter (and the next) - we will take care of ourselves.

Finally, global warming will severely impact water resources in AZ . Palo Verde nuclear plant is as - or more - vulnerable to water shortages than polar bears are to ice-loss.

How will you adapt???

[Nihil]

38. Non-snarky question ...

Have you approached your State & Congress reps & senators?

If not, could you sit down with a local councillor to put a bit more
meat on your figures (even if it is at a county level with a hand-wave
at the state approximations) and present it to them to show how much
it will cost to do different phases of your proposal? Also balance it
against the risk to (however many) elderly people, minimum wage families,
rural communities? Take a few examples where the lower-waged struggling
person would have a direct impact on the community (e.g., snow-plough
driver, school bus driver) and use them to reinforce your figures.

At the local level, you should be able to get someone on board with this
and, by starting now, you might have a chance of helping some of the folk
who will otherwise become "tragic victims" next Winter.

There is a real risk of vulnerable people being caught in a surprisingly
fast-moving but deadly trap and, although it may be easy to disparage
vague "rebate wishes", having a handle on the actual costs will really
help - not only to get the political movers on side but also to present
to the press if the polite requests fall on deaf ears.

Good luck.

(I'm sure normal service will be resumed shortly but I honestly mean this
in a friendly and supportive manner!)

[jpak]

41. Non-snarky reply

There are several in-state and regional governmental task groups currently working on this...

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=198457&ac=PHnws

New Englanders are girding for this crisis (and we will prevail).

[Nihil]

42. Good to hear it.

Best of luck (and keep us informed please).
:hi:

[hogwyld]

20. Last time I checked

solar panel conversion rates take quite a hit when they're under a few feet of snow and ice. Wind turbines don't spin too freely either when they're coated in ice.

[jpak]

24. Solar hot water heaters in Maine provide 100% of hot water demand in summer and 60-80% in winter

New England's only commercial wind farm is located in Mars Hill Maine (i.e. way the fuck up North) and does not suffer from icing in the winter months.

FYI

[eShirl]

44. funny, my sister's solar panels weren't buried under snow and ice last winter

and we had record snowfall

do people in other states lay their solar panels flat or something?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. A lot of us are simultaneously complaining about the current heat and worrying about how to keep

warm this winter.

[hedgehog]

4. Become unihabitable? BECOME unihabitable? When was Maine

or any other part of New England and Upstate New York inhabitable during the winter!

[Warpy]

5. There are going to be a lot of uninhabitable houses

as people struggle to heat just enough to keep the pipes from freezing and dress in winter coats and hats indoors.

Look at the price of natural gas, too. It's doubled since last winter, meaning people who made the swap to save money are going to get hit hard, too.

I'm afraid this winter is going to be a fatal one for the very young and the very old.

[XemaSab]

6. The very young actually do better than you would expect in the cold

Adults and elderlies, however...

[twiceshy]

9. I wrote something similar to my congress folks.

I live in Springfield MA and most houses heat with oil. I am sure there are seniors who are going to freeze to death and low income folks who will die in fires caused by space heaters. It happens in good times, this will just make it worse ($5 oil). Renewables are a great idea, but given our climate solar is not viable as a dollar-per-watt proposition. We don't have enough wind in the valley for windmills and they are difficult to site even if you could find an investor (see Cape Wind project 12 years in approval). At least in ME it's pretty easy to install and fuel a woodstove, which a lot of folks there do. Myself, I'm insulating everything I can, buying a more efficient furnace, and looking to install a fireplace insert woodstove.

[Warpy]

11. Those are all prudent steps to take

although you don't want to make your house too tight if you use a woodstove. Keep a few air leaks to assure yourself of enough air changes. Don't forget that heavy window drapes, pulled closed at dusk, can also be efficient at retaining heat.

I heated with wood in the 70s in New England and the first thing I did when I bought this place in NM is install a small, efficient wood stove. I think that stove has paid for itself more than once by now and will probably pay for itself again this winter with the price of natural gas doubled.

I also bought a couple of Econoheaters, wall mounted low power electric heaters.

[Marrah_G]

16. Hey- how well do the wall heaters actually work?

And are they as safe and cost efficient as they claim to be?

I've considered buying a couple, but for me that is a good chunk of money and I was afraid it was another scam.

[intheflow]

27. I moved from Monson to Denver in 2001.

As a single parent, heating oil bills for my five room house nearly crippled me the last two years I lived there. One of the best parts about moving out here has been not only the less expensive natural gas, but also the much milder winters. My son and his girl are both starting their first real jobs out of college this year, and will also be living off campus for the first time. Between the college loan repayments and the cost to heat their apartment, it's going to be a lean first year for them. My heart goes out to all my "homeland" people in New England this year. I'll be praying for an mild winter for you all. :hug:

[One_Life_To_Give]

10. Strange way to put it.

The same techniques that worked 300+ years ago will still be more than adequate today. However people are not all in a position to use those techniques. And for mkany the modern techniqes are now priced beyond their means.

That is if you have wood lots and enough healthy backs to cut and split all your heating needs you will be fine. If you don't have the acreage for your own firewood nor the money to spend on oil nor the ability to cut/split your own fuel then you have a problem.

[phantom power]

12. 300 years ago the population of north america was 7 million.

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. Which hits people in population centers

means were dependent on foreign oil, etc.
If you still lived on a rural Maine family farm of even 100 years ago there would be other possibilities. And much of Maine is very rural. Even the basic 5 Acre building lot provides he possibility of providing fuel for a couple of winters. Assuming either yourself or close by family members are able to take care of harvesting and tending.

[twiceshy]

14. Even if you don't have your own woodlot.......

I know at least in Vermont you can go through the Forest Service extension and they will let you thin a plot of public forest for free - well at least they did 30 years ago.

[Marrah_G]

17. It's a different world then it was 300 years ago.

We are going to be in big trouble this winter.

[jpak]

21. Many people were unprepared for the rapid increase in heating fuels and gasoline.

Rural Mainers with long commutes to work or retail centers have been hit hard with gasoline costs. Many cannot afford to get rid of their trucks (which many REALLY need up here in the winter) and they can't afford to run them.

People with oil/kerosene/propane heat that did not buy a pellet stove or a wood stove this spring are SOL - there are long waiting lists for pellet stoves and firewood dealers will not be able to produce enough *dry* *seasoned* firewood to meet demand this winter.

Until Obama and a Democratic Congress are seated next January, Republics will oppose increases in LIHEAP funding and imports of low-cost heating oil from Venezuela - the triple whammy...

[phantom power]

22. I get the feeling we're going to hear a lot more of this come fall.

[jpak]

26. We're hearing about it already...

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=197801&ac=PHnws

[NNadir]

29. Really? Were you "hearing" about it when you advocated destroying the largest single

source of climate change gas free energy in Maine back in the early 1990's?

I guess not.

I'm sure you're hear to tell us that renewable energy will save Maine.

I've seen thousands of posts on this website claiming that Maine didn't need dangerous fossil fuels because of its great renewable energy program.

Heckuva job.

[jpak]

30. The owners of Maine Yankee shut down their own plant in 1997 because it was a POS

and uneconomic to run.

The owners shut it down.

Not Greenpeace

Not Maine Audubon

Not NRCM

Not me

When natural gas runs out - your home will be uninhabitable too...

:hi:

Renewables will "save Maine" because we have the resources to do it - NJ does not...

[NNadir]

33. Not really. It became "uneconomic" because a bunch of syndic thugs were continuously

suing the plant.

The fact is fundie, that poor people will be suffering this winter - just as I predicted - because a bunch of indifferent yuppies sat around at their Mom's estate saying how "renewables will save us."

Are renewables saving these poor people?

Apparently not.

In 1990, nuclear power generated almost 1/3 of Maine's electricity, and dangerous fossil fuels a little over 20%. In 2006 dangerous fossil fuels produced 48% of Maine's electricity.

Heckuva job.

At no point in the history of Maine have the combined "other renewables" including wood burning - with its unrestricted release of carcinogens, and the weeny solar and wind energy ever produced as much energy combined as the Maine Yankee plant produced in 1994.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/sept05me.xls

In fact, the single Maine Yankee nuclear plant produced more energy in a few acres of land in 1996, it's last year of operation than the entire State of Maine produced from its combined renewables in 2006.

And speaking of the great renewable "breakthrough" how about a little round of 3,974,084 > 4,201,699? The latter number - for those who can compare two numbers (anti-nukes need not apply) - which is a couple of million kwh <em>less</em> than the amount of energy produced by Maine Yankee in 1993 - is the amount of "other renewables," including trash burning and forest burning, that Maine produced in 1993. The former number is the amount of "other renewables" produced in Maine in 2006.

Heckuva job. You must be very proud.

It follows that if you regard the Maine Yankee nuclear plant to be a failure, that you have a very, very, very, very, very selective criteria for what "failure" means.

Heckuva job, fundie. You must be very proud. I'm sure the people huddling in the freezing darkness around a candle this winter will appreciate your vision. I hope your friend Buffy owns a candle shop in Bar Harbor.

I'm sure they all appreciate your efforts to make even a little electric space heater in a bedroom impossible to afford.

You must be very proud. Congratulations. Heckuva job.

Ignorance not only kills. It impoverishes.

Heckuva job. Your Mom raised you right.

[jpak]

37. Maine Yankee *was* a failure

as was yo' Mama...

:evilgrin:

[Kolesar]

43. "Yo" Mama

[madokie]

35. while the sob's that vote republican for the most part are going to be just fine

some will have to tighten their belts some but they'll survive with all toes and fingers intact unfrostbit, while the average folk will be barely getting by. Being hungry is bad enough then being cold too really sucks

[Javaman]

25. Our existence is based on oil.

no oil no heat. period.

There will be those who will use wood, there will be those that won't have enough and there will be those that won't have any.

solar and wind are fine until the deep deep freeze hits. Not just turbines blades covered in ice that will prevent it from spinning, but what sort of...oil based lubricant does it use? does it have the proper viscosity for deep cold? probably not.

solar is wonderful until it's covered under 6+ feet of snow.

bottom line, there will be those that migrate and there will be those that don't.

the ones that don't fall into two categories. Those that survive and those that die.

as for drilling off shore or in Anwar, that's a pipedream. no returns on anything for at least 10 years in the best case scenario. And if it does happen, it will only last a few months also at best.

Folks, our lives are going to change. Just a fact. We have to learn to do with a lot less. We have to migrate for warmth, for jobs and for food.

either embrace it now and have a plan or wait till the last minute, bitch and die.

[bvar22]

32. !

Twilight Harvest

We moved from Central Minnesota to Central Arkansas in 2006.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=246x7979