So what's the solution

[cedric]

This board continues to post reports on the dire situation that the planet is in yet what do you see as the route to some degree of survival?

Specific political parties, individuals action massive radical change. The whole lot?

[Muttocracy]

1. the whole lot, though individuals are limited in some ways.

Individuals can make a difference in energy conservation (funny how people can do it when asked for a blackout situation and then go back to old habits later) - but it's hard for individuals to come up with new fuels, products, distribution systems, etc. I think that's where government, and government-funded research, can help.

Politically, protecting the environment has to be seen as protecting human health AND the human economy.

There are ways we can at least slow the problems a bit, though it certainly is daunting.

[pscot]

2. Not every problem has a solution

Population control is off the table. The unending growth economic model is off the table. Doesn't leave much to talk about.

[cosmik debris]

3. Some of us believe it is too late

We will see what the future holds, and adapt to it if we can.

[Dogmudgeon]

4. Six billion deaths

And then, we'll wring our hands and beat our breasts in a crude approximation of guilt.

There are plenty of things we could do. The most likely course of action we will take is to not take action at all.

That's how history has generally worked out. We walk right into the traffic of events without even the excuse that we had our eyes shut. It's been like that since the beginning of civilization.

The Earth will survive. Humanity will survive. But there is likely to be "a bit of trouble" along the way. I can't say I'm entirely pessimistic, but the prospect of such a large number of premature, miserable deaths in such a short time does not make for pleasant dreams.

--p!

[stuntcat]

5. yes, 'the whole lot'

The 'radical change' part is out of our hands. But we can try, if we act fast enough and dramatically enough, to insure the kids today can live in some sort of order toward the end of this century...


...oh wait, I just made myself laugh :rofl: :rofl:

[cedric]

6. Doesn't look too good

from the responses received. Then again 95% of those that have viewed this thread haven't even been able to come up with a response which pretty much sums up the problem !

[Dead_Parrot]

8. There's only so many synonyms for "Die".

Which places an upper limit on the number of different responses you can have.

(Pessimist? Me?)

[Howzit]

15. What can one infer from the 95% silence? What do these readers think?

1. That there are no solutions;

2. that they have no suggestions to offer,
2b. or are afraid of being ridiculed;

3. that they don't want to solve the problem because that would just encourage human proliferation to continue;

4. that they don't think there is a problem that needs fixing;

5. that human attempts to fix the problem can make things worse.

6. that they trust the Democratic Party to decide what needs to be done and to achieve it.


My money is on 2b.

[Dead_Parrot]

19. I think you missed one...

7) They don't want to think about it.

I don't blame them: If you take over-population as the root cause, any fix other than "Wait for a die-off" involves some really nasty thoughts indeed.

[Howzit]

20. Could be, but

why are they reading this forum then?

[Dead_Parrot]

21. Three options:

1) They haven't caught onto the size and scope of the population problem yet, and think everything will be OK if we can just stop whaling. Nothing wrong with that, we all start somewhere.
2) They've figured out that population isn't a key issue, but they've all forgotten to tell me why, or
3) They're just here for the after-show party - passing around the popcorn, making jokes about polar bears and Easter Island and watching the whole damn thing turn to shit in the certain knowledge that we, as a species, are going to do fuck-all about it.

:popcorn:

Hey, maybe if we could get the polar bears to build a big stone head, it would work...

[bananas]

27. Based on your popcorn smiley, we must assume you place yourself in category 3.

3) They're just here for the after-show party - passing around the popcorn, making jokes about polar bears and Easter Island and watching the whole damn thing turn to shit in the certain knowledge that we, as a species, are going to do fuck-all about it.

[Dead_Parrot]

29. The force is strong in this one. nt

[XemaSab]

38. Why do you hate whales?

And may I have some popcorn, please? :9

[Speck Tater]

7. Here's one answer.

Imagine you've come across a partially decomposed body in the woods and ask "Well, how to we save this guy's life?"

I believe that the grim reality is, there is no solution. It's too late. We should have started implementing solutions 10 or 15 years ago.

What will happen is that the playing field will be leveled, globally. Somewhere between the average middle class American and the average starving child in Biafra, is a middle ground where we will ALL meet.

Somewhere between living on a dollar a day and living on U.S. minimum wage, we will find a balance that is sustainable. And getting there will result in a whole of pain for anyone presently living the wealthy lifestyle ("wealthy" in the global context) of a U.S. minimum wage worker.

[Howzit]

16. So you are saying that Americans will be able to live off less than the minimum wage?

I don't see this as remotely possible unless the cost of land goes way down. Do you see collective farming with no one owning the land, or new land claims and allocations like 250 years ago? Otherwise how does one buy enough land to grow your own food, or pay existing mortgages...

[XemaSab]

9. I think everyone going simple is part of it

This means eating lower on the food chain, finding new ways to make aesthetically pleasing landscapes that serve both human needs and ecological needs, finding new ways to live with our adopted landscapes, and everyone becoming more educated about ecology and food.

If we can do this, then maybe some educated people will survive and new "indigenous" cultures will rise up, formed of people living with nature, instead of against nature. If we don't, I think we're going to go back to the age of barbarians, where men with guns fight over resources for the next 500 years. Or aren't we there now? :shrug:

(PS this might be the most hippie thing I have ever written. Plan B is for everyone to get a lot of guns and a BUNCH of ammo, 'cause it's going to be a bumpy ride. :o )

[Dead_Parrot]

10. I thought people being simple was one of the main causes...

...oh, you mean that sort of simple. Sorry.
:)

[XemaSab]

11. .

:eyes: :P

[XemaSab]

24. But on the other hand, I think a "new primitivism" could wreak more havoc than we're wreaking now

Our technological society allows us to preserve areas of open space.

I can't say having a run on game animals and firewood on public lands would be an improvement. :shrug:

[Dead_Parrot]

26. Depends on the technology

We know "poacher with rifle" vs "gorilla" = bushmeat: but "poacher with pointy stick because the ammunition factory shut down due to lack of cheap imported nitrates from China" vs "200lb of annoyed silverback" might be a little different. :)

[XemaSab]

34. You can still overhunt even with primitive technology

(Cough, cough, pleistocene megafauna, cough).

Man, my allergies are bad today! x(

[hermetic]

12. Here's someone with a plan

This group is just forming so it will be interesting to see if it can sustain itself.

http://outquisition.org/


"What would it be like, we wondered, if folks who knew tools and innovation left the comfy bright green cities and traveled to the dead mall suburban slums, rustbelt browntowns and climate-smacked farm communities and started helping the locals get the tools they needed. We imagined that it would need an almost missionary fervor, something like the Inquisition (which largely destroyed knowledge) in reverse, a crusade of open sharing, or ..., the Outquisition."

[NMDemDist2]

13. there is no 'one' silver bullet. we need as many diverse methods as we can

as we can come up with.

I think the only hope is to diversify the power generation to every home and community, but the big players will fight us tooth and nail.....

[hogwyld]

14. The only real way to let the world heal

Is for 6 Billion humans to go away and stop interfering. There are no measures that can save us.

[Howzit]

18. Would you be disappointed if the earth continues to support human life largely unchanged until

they die out as a result of nuclear war or a comet strike?

[Nihil]

25. The timescale for his "disappointment" depends on your definition of "human life"

If you are meaning "continues to support the currently growing global
population in their current lifestyle" then there will only be a few
years for the nuclear war or comet strike to get there "in time".

If you are meaning "continues to support the wealthy minority in their
current ignorance/disregard for the rest of the world" then you've got
a lot longer for the alternative EOTWAWKI options, simply because you've
constrained the scope to exclude real-world effects that are happening now.

:shrug:

[stuntcat]

30. the world Will continue to support human life

especially the rich 1st-worlders, we'll be protected in lots of ways that others aren't.
The mass-extinction will speed up of course but that obviously won't ever matter to many humans.

[meow mix]

17. time travel. go back and change past..

or steal a flying saucer to find a new planet for the next million years or so.

[AdHocSolver]

22. The problem is corporate capitalism controlling resources for profit. The problem is gross waste.

The technical solutions exist now. The problem to implementing them is political. Too many people in power want to maintain the status quo.

The "solution" will be implemented automatically when the current imperial system collapses.

The next economic depression is coming and the U.S. empire will collapse as previous empires such as the Roman, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Soviet, and a host of other empires have collapsed from within.

As Kevin Phillips wrote in his books, such as "Wealth and Democracy", greed, corruption, military adventures, bleeding of the treasuries by the rulers, and internal economic collapse due to destruction of the middle and working classes, brought down every empire.

The Great Depression of the 1930's is prelude to what is coming down the road. The only hope of recovery is if Obama becomes president and implements re-regulation of business and other New Deal policies that Franklin Roosevelt implemented in the 1930's.

[Tumbulu]

23. I agree with your assessment (nt).

[bananas]

28. That's almost like saying

that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

[pscot]

31. That would have to include

the 44% of Amerikan voters who seem likely to chose McSame in November. Four more years of GOP rule would amount to environmental suicide.

[stuntcat]

32. (murder..)

murder even, by whoever has the most influence.

Murder's a weak word for the extinctions though, I can't even think of the word for that kind of killing.

[ElectricGrid]

33. Go hide in your bunker.. We will fix this problem with out you.

Some nice leadership you have there.

[ElectricGrid]

35. Here is what I would do........

I am assuming this was limited to the United States as we would have very little control outside of our borders. Keep in mind this is not the ideal path but what I believe could be accomplished working in our currect political and social norms.


A. Put an immediate cap and trade on carbon emmissions. This would mean the amount of carbon released would not grow.

B. Raise CAFE standards to require 50 MPG for individual transportation by 2015(carbon emiting vehicles only). (Industrial transport would not apply) Take those cabon credits earned from the auto companies and sell them to fund these following research areas. Carbon Neutral biofuels, automotive battery technology improvements

C. Mandate all utilites to be minimum of 20% renewable(not counting nuke) power generation by 2020. Take those carbon credits away from the utilities and sell them. Use that $$ to fund grid restructuring; wind, solar, & geo research.

D. starting in 2012 reduce the carbon cap by 2% each year until 2022. Then 1% each year until we are at 10% of current emissions.


This would be my start. It's got a few question marks and holes but I am not goint to take a bunch of time to put a complete air tight plan on here.

[Indenturedebtor]

37. I would like to add a couple of things

- Rewrite the Agriculture bill to massively incentivis people with land to start wind and solar farms.

- Tax the oil industry to death and use the money for said subsidies and the necessary power grid upgrades.

- Make lobbying by business mostly illegal

[pscot]

41. Here's one hole

Your basic assumption that the U.S can go it alone, is like the captain of the Titanic assuming the the "sinking problem" was localized to the passenger decks, and if the officers on the bridge took care of business they would come through just fine.

[ElectricGrid]

42. I agree with that, but if we

want to have any sort of influence then we need to be the clear leaders.

[Javaman]

36. Quite frankly, it will solve itself.

we as confused, yet full of massive ego humans, can't even get our shit together before we leave the house for work, the world will still turn and will continue long after we are gone.

Certain deticated few will keep pushing the rock up the hill to make changes to help the animals, to maintain some sort of food network, but in the end, people will die, some will survive and the world will have much less of us to harm it.

At which point it will begin the slow, very slow, process of recovery.

[XemaSab]

39. The process might not be that slow

If you want some doomsday pr0n, "The World Without Us" is a terrific read.

[Javaman]

40. Already read it LOL. it was a good read.

that book assumed we were already gone.

I'm saying over time, when our population finally trims down, which it will, the earth will start healing again.

[GliderGuider]

43. It might be helpful to distinguish between solutions and responses

To imagine there may be "a solution" implies that there is something we could do at this point to prevent "the problem".

If you look clearly, dispassionately and holistically at the problem set in all its grim converging glory, it becomes immediately clear that we are well past the point when human action could completely avert the coming changes. We face a range of wicked problems, from overpopulation through climatic, ecological and energy difficulties, dysfunctional human socioeconomic organizations, to outright anthropogenic extinctions.

Any one of these problems could be the trigger for a human collapse of one sort or another, or we might muddle along for quite a while as a sort of entropy degrades our existence bit by bit. What is clear to many of us is that the multidimensional interactions of the component problems make this a large scale macro-problem with no apparent solution.

That doesn't mean we should or will do nothing, however. Even if we don't solve the crisis we will respond to it.

Our responses will probably spring more from local circumstances and personal or cultural preferences than on some overarching global framework. Group responses will run the gamut from resource wars to technological development to community restructuring, ecological education and local actions of all sorts. Individual responses will range from "canned food and ammo" to a variety of spiritual formulations (which will include "God will save us" fatalism from fundamentalists of all faiths as well as more positive teachings about attachment and change coming from the Buddhist tradition, and all points in between.

What this means is that humanity will muddle through. We will do this more successfully in some regions than others, though. Sometimes we will do even more harm on the way down as we burn down the forests and eat the songbirds from the trees. On the other hand, sometimes we will create new structures that will support rich, meaningful, non-damaging lives for those lucky enough to be part of them.

Change is inevitable, unavoidable and utterly unpredictable. IMO a person's best bet is to grow very sensitive to the changes happening around them, and to culture a flexible mind and spirit that will let them respond as effectively as possible when the local trends become apparent.

To keep hoping for "solutions" is to remain attached to the past and present, to try and close yourself off from (or even reject) the inherently fluid nature of the world and its underlying reality. To do that invites suffering and perpetual heartache, and may keep you from experiencing the joys of life that will inevitably persist, even during periods of severe, irreversible, unsolvable change.