"Heisenberg's War." Scientists and ethics in political extremes.

[NNadir]

My wife was chatting with a friend, a scientist, who is married to a scientist, who have two small children. Their reaction to hearing of the outcome of the election was a common one, I think, to wake up and ask each other, "How do we get out of the country?"

I've been thinking quite a bit about the demise of American Science which will certainly now accelerate under the Republican dictatorship, and have decided to re-read Thomas Power's "Heisenberg's War," which examines Werner Heisenberg's decision to remain in Germany just before the outbreak of World War II. (The book also recounts an effort on the part of Manhattan Project security - working with scientists - to have Heisenberg assassinated.)

One of the interesting quotes from this book recounts a luncheon conversation between Heisenberg and Fermi (who had fled fascist Italy with little more than his clothing) in Ann Arbor, Michigan in the summer of 1939, as related by the physicist Max Dresden, hired, ironically to work as a bartender at the luncheon:

"The crucial part of their argument was whether a decent, honest scientist could funciton and maintain his scientific integrity and personal self-respect in a country where all standards of decency and humanity had been suspended. Heisenberg believed that with his prestige, reputation and known loyalty to Germany, he could influence and prehaps even guide his government in more rational channels. Fermi believed no such thing..."

It seems to me that this bit of history may well be repeated and I would be interested to hear any remarks on this subject as posters may offer given what has just happened in our own beloved country.

(A personal irony here is that Max Dresden was a Professor of Physics at my old Alma Mater, SUNY Stony Brook, where John Marburger, Bush's "Science" advisor, was once President of the University.)

Heisenberg's War

[bemildred]

1. The brain drain is already in full swing.

The notion that you can influence the course of events by the
influence of your native goodness is hubris, a moral fig-leaf
for denial.

[NNadir]

2. I agree with you about our brain drain.

It's worth noting though that Powers' thesis in the referenced book is that Heisenberg was able to prevent a practical German nuclear bomb development effort by staying in the country. This is a controversial conclusion, of course, though it is clear with hindsight that Germany's WWII nuclear program was extremely primitive by any standard.

I understand the issue was artistically explored, and explored beautifully, in Frayn's play Copenhagen. Unfortunately I never got to see the play.

[bemildred]

8. That is speculation, and as you point out, not well founded.

One can also argue from patriotism - not abandoning ones country in
peril - but that begs the question, the homeland (which is really just
a government) must be worthy to demand allegiance. To support
evil in the hope of making it less so is mere expediency - the end
justifies the means - and it will lead you nowhere.

I have read Mr. Heisenberg a little bit, he is an interesting and
intelligent man, but he misfired here.

[NNadir]

9. It is clear that many who knew Heisenberg apparently agree with you.

In particular, although Bohr never spoke about it, his friendship with Neils Bohr was destroyed.

It remains an important question though, given events, whether one should simply become a refugee when one's country becomes unworthy of allegiance, or whether one should stay and fight.

Heisenberg did not do much open fighting against the regime. According to Powers even during his last prewar visit to the United States, pressed by many world famous scientists who knew him intimately, he was at best circumspect about his plans to resist.

Forgive me for saying there is much uncertainty about how to proceed.

[bemildred]

10. No forgiveness is necessary.

It's easy enough for anybody to be wrong, for reasonable people
given the same information to disagree. And when you are on the
spot, things may not be as clear as they are in retrospect. I
like and respect the man, what happened to him is a tragedy.

One would prefer to keep science and politics separate, but I
don't expect we will be so lucky.

[phantom power]

3. The last few years have reminded me a lot about stories

regarding brain-drain in Germany. Some historians say that brain-drain contributed to Germany's loss of WWII. America and Europe took in Germany's brightest minds, and used them help win the war.

Does anybody else remember when the Army fired a bunch of Arabic translators a couple years ago, because they were gay? I thought that was disturbingly reminiscent of the kind of self-inflicted brain-damage that Nazi Germany committed on itself.

It saddens me, and mystifies me deeply, that we've apparently forgotten so many of the things that *really* made us a great country. Humanism, tolerance, pragmatism. All "reality-based" values, of course...

[NNadir]

4. The question is will we be able to rebuild American science after our

holocaust?

It is much easier to destroy than it is to build.

[phantom power]

5. I suppose it depends on who survives, and what resources are

left for the survivors to work with.

After WWII, Europe was able to rebuild fairly quickly, likewise Japan. On the other hand, I keep thinking about the Dark Ages. We recovered from that too, but it took over a thousand years.

At the time, America had phenomenal resources, and we spend a lot of them helping Europe via the Marshall Plan. So, maybe if we implode, Europe and/or Asia could return the favor.

Assuming we don't just destroy everything. It's bad news that we are still so powerful, in terms of military. We're like a very large, powerful drunk. We can do a lot of damage before we could be subdued. If we go nuclear, who knows what the destruction might be.

[NNadir]

6. I don't know that I see nuclear war as the mechanism originating a dark

ages here, although such an outcome cannot be excluded.

More likely I think is such a more peaceful - but nonetheless total - collapse of the intellectual infrastructure on which we depend.

[phantom power]

7. Looking at my post, I was blurring multiple scenarios, not being

very clear.

But, regarding nuclear war, the idea of our vast nuclear arsenal coming under the control of a government based on religeon more than science scares the crap out of me. And that appears to be exactly what's happening.

But there are a lot of less apocalyptic scenarios that could cause us to disintegrate, essentially becoming a third-world country. And even then, we'd be a third-world country that houses a vast nuclear arsenal.

It's common to bash Russia for not being in control of their weaponry after the USSR collapsed. The same thing could easily happen here.

[jpak]

11. Where will they go???

Every foreign post-doc I know wants to come to the US.

Academic positions in the EU and Canada are scarce and they are graduating more Ph D's than there are jobs.

Many countries (like Canada) give their citizens preference over foreigners when hiring for faculty positions.

Forget Russia and the FSU...

Forget China...

South America and Africa? LOL!

South Asia??? Good luck. An Indian friend of mine said his lab director made him touch his feet every time he called him to his office. Fuck that!

Japan? If you want your lab director to take credit for your work (mandatory co-authorship in many institutions) - it's the place for you.

New Zealand and Oz???? Every American scientist I know that went Down Under eventually came back to the US - funding sucked.

Doing a postdoc overseas can sometimes diminish your chances of getting a faculty position back in the States. Some universities view international airfare as prohibitively expensive and place a low priority on overseas applicants.

As bad as it is here, it's often worse overseas...

[NNadir]

12. I didn't intend this thread for a discussion of academic politics.

It's about ethics.

Many scientist in Germany were deprived of their jobs in 1933, even though some people at the time, Heisenberg amount them, claimed that German science would survive Nazism. It did. There are still German scientists today, and many of them do quite well in academic politcs.

Thank you, though, for telling us about all of the "foreign graduate students you know." Come back a few years into the Bush dictatorship to give us an update on funding for science and the continuing rush of Graduate Students to Christian Kingdom of America.

(I personally know an American oceanographer, a full professor, whose first discussion with his wife, a biologist, was how they could get themselves and their children out of the country. I guess you don't know them, though.)

[DrWeird]

13. See the play Copenhaegen.

It's about the ghosts of Heisenberg and Fermi meeting to rediscuss that particular meeting. Lots of tough questions, no easy answers. PBS showed it awhile ago on Masterpiece Theater. Might be able to catch it again.

[NNadir]

14. It's Bohr and Heisenberg.

Bohr was something like Heisenberg's scientific father. After the meeting described in the play, which is sometimes thought of as a huge misunderstanding, Bohr more or less rejected Heisenberg and their relationship was forever cooled.

I didn't get to see the play on Broadway, and don't know where it's being produced now, if anywhere, but I have ordered the PBS video version which my wife will give me for Christmas.