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cedric Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 03:46 PM
Original message
Lovelock article
What are the planetary health risks of geoengineering intervention? Nothing we do is likely to sterilise the Earth, but the consequences of planetary scale intervention could hugely affect humans.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/01/climatechange.scienceofclimatechange
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the posting...
Lovelock....the old wise man, as per usual..... Ms Bigmack
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. yes..
"Perhaps the saddest thing is that if we fail and humans become extinct, the Earth System, Gaia, will lose as much as or more than we do. In human civilisation, the planet has a precious resource. We are not merely a disease; we are, through our intelligence and communication, the planetary equivalent of a nervous system."

our communication and music and art.. I always think of how amazing the natural stuff is without the humans, but it would be sad if we ended up losing the things we did right too.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. I vote for option B ...
i.e.,
> The alternative is the acceptance of a massive natural cull of humanity
> and a return to an Earth that freely regulates itself but in the hot state.


I disagree with him that

> if a safe form of geoengineering buys us a little time then we must use it

as not only do I fear the infantile tampering with systems that are simply
not understood but I know how likely that commercial & political interests
will corrupt even the best-laid plans.

I do agree with his other point though:

> Whatever we do is likely to lead to death on a scale that makes
> all previous wars, famines and disasters small.

Interesting times, no?
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Ancient Chinese Curse.... May you
live in interesting times. Ms Bigmack
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. Numbers in support; and Lovelock is an incurable optimist
Edited on Wed Sep-03-08 06:12 AM by GliderGuider
Whatever we do is likely to lead to death on a scale that makes all previous wars, famines and disasters small. To continue business as usual will probably kill most of us during the century.

If circumstances were to conspire to cause a human die-back over this century, from our current population of 6.7 billion to a more sustainable 1 billion in 75 to 100 years, the excess death rate would at times exceed 200 million people per year, and would average about 100 million per year over the century. To put this in perspective, WWII caused an excess death rate of only 10 million per year for six years. Such a die-back would be like having ten World Wars raging on the planet simultaneously for the entire century.

Here's why I think Lovelock is an optimist:

We can adapt to climate change and this will allow us to make the best use of the refuge areas of the world that escape the worst heat and drought.

and,

During the global heating of the early Eocene, there appears to have been no great extinction of species and this may have been because life had time to migrate to the cooler regions near the Arctic and Antarctic and remain there until the planet cooled again. This may happen again and humans, animals and plants are already migrating.

Lovelock makes no mention of the speed of the change we are experiencing, which is far faster than any planetary event except for asteroid strikes. The Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM), one of the most rapid and extreme (up to 6°C at high latitudes) global warming pulses recorded in geologic history, lasted around 20,000 years. In contrast, we could experience the same degree of warming over just 100 years -- 200 times faster than the most intense thermal event in recent planetary history There is no chance whatsoever that plants and animals could migrate fast enough to stay in isothermal locations. Not all species would go extinct, of course, some small number of individuals who are lucky or live at the extreme cool edges of their range would be able to survive.

Unfortunately for humans, the lifeboat refuges Lovelock posits are nowhere near large enough, or well enough resourced, to support large numbers of us. The lifeboat analogy is even more appropriate because the potential for these areas to be swamped beyond their capacity by an influx of panicked refugees is very high.

IMO the best hope for humanity is to do what we have always done: adapt in place, strengthen our immediate communities, encourage the growth of wisdom in the old and young, and try to make sure every decision has a net positive outcome.
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The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Intentionally messing with the climate is far stupider then doing it accidentally
We don't know exactly where the climate is taking us. IPCC is predicting a hot house but other people talk about a new ice age. I don't have a link but I read somewhere that some scientist believe that the ice ages were caused by an ice free Arctic putting moisture in the air that fell as snow on land and developed the ice sheets.

Intentionally trying to impact the climate is like standing up in a canoe. If it starts tilting one way you lean the other way. When it reverses itself and tilts the other way you lean against it. The next thing you know you are in the water wondering if your cell phone will still work (it won't).

My advice: Don't stand up.
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. So,
do nothing?
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. There's a difference between geoengineering and reducing our excessive impact.
Geoengineering generally involves creating new feedback loops or amplifying existing ones. That's stupid dangerous. Reducing human impact on the planet doesn't come under that heading.

Of course what we will probably do is, in fact, nothing.
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The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Agreed
Cutting CO2 output is not the same as Geoengineering. In fact it is the opposite of Geoengineering.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-08 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting CBC podcast on Lovelock and the Gaia Theory
I've listened to it a few times.

It's an hour-long interview and documentary about Lovelock, his theory and it's gradual acceptance in the scientific community.

http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/thinkaboutscience_20080103_4325.mp3
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