Volt reality check

[Javaman]

Chevy Volt not so revolutionary
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/9/21/94357/8345

For those of you who missed it, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz hit the talk show circuit last week to talk up the latest incarnation of the Chevy Volt (more on his boneheaded climate change comments here and here). The marketing goal is to create the public perception that the Volt is an electric car (get it, volt?), to differentiate it from competitors like the Prius, which are mere hybrids. It may work, and I'm OK with that as long as it sells low-emission cars. Look at how successful the car industry was at getting us to covet station wagons with oversize tires by calling them "sport utility vehicles."

The Volt will not be an electric car. It will be a hybrid, specifically a plug-in hybrid. As with all other plug-in hybrids, it will have extra batteries that can accept a charge from the grid that will propel it without using the gasoline engine for some distance dictated by battery size and driving conditions. But once that charge is used up, it will drop into hybrid mode and stay there until you can plug it in again. The public doesn't -- and if GM is successful, probably never will -- understand that the Volt is just a plug-in hybrid. It will not fully recharge its batteries using the gasoline engine. An attempt to do that would wreck its gas mileage.


My beef here is that GM is using smoke and mirrors to convince the public that the Volt is a revolutionary new car when it really isn't. The reality is that GM is still years away from producing something to compete with the Japanese hybrids and at $40,000 a copy it is guaranteed not to have mass appeal. Toyota plans to be producing a million hybrids a year by 2010. Nobody knows what mileage the Volt will get when it drops into hybrid mode after the grid charge is used up, but it will probably be pretty lackluster.

I watched Lutz explaining to a talk-show host why the Volt is going to cost so much. Lutz pointed out that if you are going to have a regular engine with a gas tank and an electric motor with a battery, you will have to pay "twice as much." Which all sounds very logical but, oddly enough, just a few weeks ago Honda revealed its plan to sell a hybrid in 2009 that will cost significantly less than a Prius -- around $18,000. You could buy two of these for the price of a single Volt. This is evidence that the price difference is no longer in the hybrid drive train.

[Salviati]

1. Yeah, I perpetually expect dishonesty from this crowd...

I mean, whenever they mention hydrogen, they make it seem as if it is a power source, and not merely storage.

That having been said, at least they are producing what so many here in the US have wanted, a PHEV. For that, they do deserve a bit of praise, but it's the type of praise that one would offer a student who finally, for once, has done their homework: "That's great kid, let's see if you can keep it up for tomorrow."

[wtmusic]

2. The Volt is revolutionary in the sense

it is a completely new concept. Whether that concept is valid and will endure is questionable.

IMO the car's efficiency will suck. Splitting the power band the way the Prius does - electric for low RPMs and gasoline for high - makes a hell of a lot more sense from the perspective of available torque.

[Kolesar]

3. A Prius can go a few thousand feet on battery, and the Volt could go 40 miles

That "s a completely new concept", indeed. I heard a long while ago that the Volt "platform" can be used for an all electric car. That could be our "second car". Add a few more pounds of batteries and delete the engine and all of the fuel-related apparatus.

[wtmusic]

4. The 40-mile claim, IMO, is suspect.

The Volt's 16kWh of battery is the same as my electric car, and from what I've seen of the car's size, probable weight, and aerodynamics I will be amazed if it tops 25.

Not that it wouldn't be useful for some, but I suspect many drivers won't bother plugging in and instead rely on the gas tank. I have a sneaking suspicion that any 100% electric incarnation will look a lot like an EV1.

[kristopher]

5. So they spend the money to purchase something they won't use?

I doubt it. The value of the Volt's configuration is in the pattern of use. There is no reason to believe it will deliver substantially lower mileage or performance than is predicted.

[JohnWxy]

10. so, what is predicted? can you tell me that? perhaps with a link or reference.

[kristopher]

12. 40 miles per charge.

WTmusic speculated that people won't get that and will essentially abandon the use of plug in power for the batteries. First, I don't see any reason to doubt their claims and, second, even if it is a little high, I see no reason to think that would dissuade people from attempting to maximize the plug in miles they drive.

Also, there is a nonspecific prediction embedded in the description of the drivetrain. It isn't a definite number as much as it is a totally different take on how a vehicle's performance is evaluated, which is what I'm referring to when I wrote above of maximizing the plug in miles.


What I was responding to:

The 40-mile claim, IMO, is suspect.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 11:09 AM by wtmusic
The Volt's 16kWh of battery is the same as my electric car, and from what I've seen of the car's size, probable weight, and aerodynamics I will be amazed if it tops 25.

Not that it wouldn't be useful for some, but I suspect many drivers won't bother plugging in and instead rely on the gas tank. I have a sneaking suspicion that any 100% electric incarnation will look a lot like an EV1.

[JohnWxy]

14. I should rephrase my question. What do you think the miles per gallon of gas consumed on average

will be for the Volts owned? this of course would be a guesstimate.

[kristopher]

15. It will be directly related to use pattern.

The more miles per day above 40, the lower the MPG.

I'd speculate that people will get in the habit of looking at it weekly, monthly and/or yearly.

[JohnWxy]

16. So no answer, I was looking for number or range of numbers.

[kristopher]

17. That's that old way of thinking... nt

[JohnWxy]

22. Alas, to make estimates and projections one must commit to some positions or numbers. But that's

only for grown-ups, I guess. This certainly isn't necessary in the land of dreams.

[Greyskye]

23. What would you estimate my gas consumption to be as described in post #20?

:shrug:

[JohnWxy]

24. You are in a much better position to offer a hypothetical mileage for yourself than I am. But

Of course, you realize one person's (potential) experience isn't particularly useful. What is needed is an estimate of what we can expect of a fairly significant number of people driving plug-in hybrids when they become available. I have used a range of 100 mpg to 433 mpg http://journals.democraticunderground.com/JohnWxy/27">here. but I'm always open to anybody else's estimates of an average for a number of owners.

as you said of your hypothetical mileage in #20 "Which is of course absurd in that it wouldn't be representative for most, or even many people."

There is no doubt that some people will do really great.

If you are driving 20 to 30 miles a day that's about 9,000 miles a year. IF you compare a theoretical Volt to a comparable car that gets 30 mpg you would be saving about $1,100 per year on gas (at $3.65 to $3.83 a gallon. This is the cost to drive a 30 mpg car for 9,000 miles paying $3.65 -$3.83 per gallon of gas. At $4.02 a gallon your savings would go to about $1,200 per year. I'm assuming you would be spending almost nothing for gas.).

Now, if you paid $37,500 for the volt that's about $22,000 more than what you would pay for a Toyota Corolla. So your pay-back period would be about 20 years. Anybody considering buying a Volt or other plug-in would make this calculation. Of course, they will be offering some tax credit for buying a plug-in which would shorten this period. But as you can see, while you are saving a lot because you drive so little, it takes longer to realize your break-even point. NOw inflation of gas prices would shorten this period (depending on how much inflation of course) but I didn't figure in the cost to finance the purchase of the Volt or maintenance costs either. (keep in mind it is not considered likely that the batteries will last 100,000 miles for the first several years the Volt will be available. This is why some are predicting that the batteries will be leased instead of bought.) But let's shorten it to 15 years then. If your Volt is good for 135,000 miles it will hold up just about until you reach break-even.

[kristopher]

27. What if I drive 60 miles a day?

First, your estimate of battery life for the Volt is totally unfounded. Exactly who has determined that "it is not considered likely that the batteries will last 100,000 miles for the first several years the Volt will be available"?
I look forward to seeing your basis for that claim.


If I drive 60 miles a day going to work and running around, what happens? Do I run on gas for 20 miles or do I manage to recharge while I'm at work? Presume I don't recharge and run 20 miles a day on the engine generated electricity. That's 15,600 miles per year, without the weekends. 15,600 miles at 25 mpg = 624 gallons X $4/gal = $2496 in fuel costs for a little better than average ICE.

If we don't recharge during the day at work, we run 40elec/20gas miles per day. That totals the same 15,600/year with 10,400 of them electric and 5,200 on gas. Let's say the gas gets the same mileage the ICE gets, 25 mpg. 5,200 miles at 25 mpg = 208 gal X $4/gal = $832 for a reduction in gasoline consumption of $1664 for the year. The proposed federal tax credit for the volt looks to be $7500. That brings the price down to $30,000 with payback to whatever point you want at $1664/year. Or. more likely I'm going to find a place to plug in at work and get a lot closer to saving all of that $2496 the ICE uses.

My instinct tells me this is not going to be a unit sitting on the lots. Production is going to lag behind demand, and by the time it catches up, both improved cost and performance numbers will both create more demand to lag behind once more.

[JohnWxy]

39. Li batteries have to be pulled (from cars) long before their useful life is reached cuzz of power.

Li batteries will have up to 80% of their useful life ahead of them when they will HAVE TO BE PULLED FROM CARS BECAUSE THEY WILL NO LONGER BE POWERFUL ENOUGH FOR AN AUTOMOTIVE APPLICATION.

DID YOU KNOW THAT?



http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-06-19-hybrid-battery-lease_N.htm

~~
~~

Nissan is considering leasing batteries when their plug-in hybrid vehicles go on sale in 2012, says Larry Dominique, vice president of product planning. "To consumers, it becomes less of a worry" if they know they're not responsible for replacement costs if the battery fails.

The strategy is being considered after consulting with Automotive Lease Guide, one of the major services that predicts used car values, about the potential resale value of a plug-in electric vehicle. Lithium-ion batteries — the only type now compact and powerful enough for coming plug-in hybrids — cost more and have more reliability concerns than current batteries. They build up more heat and even have caused fires in laptops and cellphones.

Until plug-ins are on the road for 10 years or so, automakers may be happier leasing batteries to consumers, says Mary Ann Wright, CEO of Johnson Controls-Saft, and vice president of Johnson Controls' hybrid battery business, which develops these batteries. "Until we know how these things are going to behave on the road, and how much these things are going to cost, it would make sense to lease them."


~~
~~

Plug-ins won't be cheap, thanks to their high-tech batteries.

"There will be a bit of a sticker shock in terms of the price point," says Prabhakar Patil, CEO of Compact Power, a supplier helping General Motors develop a battery for its Chevrolet Volt plug-in. Leasing batteries, he says, could force customers to think about their energy needs in a different way. Instead of comparing sticker prices of a plug-in with a regular car, they would compare gas prices with their battery lease payment.

Another plus for leasing is that it would make it easier to take advantage of another characteristic of lithium-ion batteries. They'll have up to 80% of their useful life left when they're no longer strong enough for use in cars


I rather expect there will be some tax credit available but the amount has not been set yet, I believe. Maybe you know something I don't. But the payback - for the car buyer - WITH a $7,500 tax credit would be 18 years, if you save $1,664 per yr in gasoline costs (just going with your figures). Of course, a true cost analysis has to look at the actual costs (irrespective of a tax credit). Somebody is paying for it whether it's the car owner or the car owner and taxpayers. But, it certainly makes a difference in how sellable the car will be. Without the tax credit the sales would certainly be much lower. OF course the $7,500 doens't just disappear. The $7,500 dollar tax credit would by getting a $2,500 savings in gasoline costs.

If 100,000 Volts were sold that would cost the Government $750,000,000.

Checking here: you will see that getting 100 mpg (your example was 75 mpg) (100 mpg at the beginning and increasing to 433 mpg(!) at the end of the period) and compared to a Corolla getting 30 mpg (increasing to 39 by the end of the period) it would take 15,642,857 (est) Volts to save 3% of the total gas consumed by the country at a additional cost of $217 Billion ($13,883 per car(original delta: $22,500), over the cost of the same number of $15,000 cars (getting 39 mpg). For simplicity, these figures do NOT include inflation. The total out-year price for the Volt uninflated is projected at $28,883, which I think builds in quite a bit of a cost reduction (figure considerable reduction in the probable $10,000 for the battery pack).

ON EDIT: I took a look at your mileage and savings figuresand I figure your savings at 75 mpg and $4.00 a gallon to be more like $1,200 a yr, but I'm not going to quibble these are all numbers with confidence intervals around them(explicit or implied).

Edit again: This would however, make your payback period 24 yrs and the miles at payback: 378,871

[JohnWxy]

40. Note, I added an edit to the bottom of my msg. well, I stated that:

ON EDIT: I took a look at your mileage and savings figuresand I figure your savings at 75 mpg and $4.00 a gallon to be more like $1,200 a yr, but I'm not going to quibble these are all numbers with confidence intervals around them(explicit or implied).


This would however, make your payback period 24 yrs and the miles at payback: 378,871

[Greyskye]

20. My average would be approaching infinite mpg

Which is of course absurd in that it wouldn't be representative for most, or even many people. But 99% of my weekly driving is approximately 20 to 30 miles/day. Most weeks I would only be using battery power, recharging at night or at work.

[ElectricGrid]

6. This post shows you have no clue as to what it takes

to design an electric car that is dependable.

[Greyskye]

7. Series vs. Parallel hybrid reality check

The Volt is a series hybrid. All other hybrids in production today are parallel hybrids - including the Prius.

As a Prius owner (and it's the best car I've ever owned in 3 decades of car ownership), I feel that the series-hybrid concept is superior. Whether or not they can make it work is another story; but yes, the Volt is pretty damn revolutionary.

I'm pleased that I may actually have a viable American made choice for an automobile purchase in the future.

[Barrett808]

8. Ditto the Prius love.

Bought mine in February, and it's just the best. Old analog cars look so primitive to me now. Mileage is consistently around 48 mpg.

[ramapo]

38. If only everybody had a Prius

Gas consumption would drop dramatically. Less pollution too. A simple but significant step to getting out of the energy/ecological mess we're in.

I love my Prius too

[kristopher]

9. Note the other thread: Chrysler to intro series hybrid in 2010. nt

[lectrobyte]

18. What are the advantages or whatever that make you feel

series technology (Chevy Volt) is superior to parallel (Prius). I kind of thought that once you hit steady state on the highway at the end of the battery range, parallel was better, gas engine driving the wheels, otherwise you are converting gasoline into electricity to drive the wheels. The Prius can split the gasoline power to drive the wheels or recharge the battery... Anyway, it seems like with a bigger battery, the Prius could be a PHEV with similar or better efficiency of the Volt, isn't that what the Hymotion conversion does?

[Greyskye]

19. It's really quite simple

At least in my case.

A parallel hybrid uses the IC (Internal Combustion) engine a lot. Sure, once the car has warmed up, you can run on only battery power up to around 35 mph. But, there are a few caveats. 1) You can't accelerate very hard, or the IC kicks in. 2) Don't go more than a mile or two. The batteries drain quickly, and the IC kicks in to charge 'em back up again. 3) Don't go up any hills and try to maintain your speed, because once again, the IC starts up and pulls you up the hill so smoothly that you probably didn't notice that the engine had turned on.

Let's assume for this discussion that "series hybrid" is the Volt with its' published specs. This vehicle can go approximately 40 miles on battery power alone, before a small IC engine turns on for the sole purpose of charging up the batteries. At that point, the mpg or gpm or however you want to measure its' cost per mile is open to debate.

I have about a 10 mile one-way commute. My home is higher in elevation than my work, and there are a number of hills of varying elevations in between. I can't average more than 45 mpg in the Prius on that commute, even using hypermiling techniques. If the Volt meets it's current specs, I would be able to commute from home to work and back again, and charge it up at night while at home. And not once during that 20 mile commute would the IC kick in.

For my situation, the choice between a series and a parallel hybrid is a no-brainer. :hi:

Here are a couple links to some really interesting alternative fueled vehicles that are going into production soon. And in the case of the electric motorcycle, is in production now. I don't want to buy any more IC vehicles. These are some options I'm considering.

Click on the picture to go to each of the manufacturers websites for information about these vehicles:

[lectrobyte]

26. Good points, but the PHEV Prius conversions do those things as

well, admittedly with a real world 30 mile range on the battery pack.

I guess I still see the advantages of a hypothetical parallel PHEV design over a hypothetical series design as once you do get to the point of needing a gasoline enine, then the fuel can be used more efficiently. And if you did need the full combined output of the gasoline and electric power sources, then it is available in a parallel design (for example, a hybrid pickup truck -- could probably operate on electric power most of the time, but when it is hauling a heavy load, then both could be used simultaneously).

I guess I'm still having trouble seeing the move to a series hybrid, unless it is just much cheaper and simpler to build, I don't see advantages over a parallel design.

[NoFederales]

21. My experience with traction vehicle battery packs

is certainly limited, but equalization in charging a paralleled pack was enough for me to abandon it. The series pack is built up to whatever voltage your motor requires, your recharging system, or both. So, a 96 VDC series wound motor would require 8 batteries. A paralleled pack of two 8 string subpacks is still 96 VDC, but it has double the current output. Roughly, higher voltage translates to higher speed capabilities and higher current output translates to greater torque (and this is torque on demand, no revving up rpms needed--that's the neat thrill of electric racing). Think of your battery pack as a food source--you are feeding your motor a product of voltage, current, and doing it under time limitations. Plus, there are quantity of battery issues related to weight, whether to use 6 volt, or 12 volt, maintainence-free, or not, efficiency issues, etc. For me, designing the pack comes first, and that guides other component selections.

Tapping off the battery packs for other electrical needs is also problematic, usually solved by keeping the 12 V system separately maintained by using a single separate battery, or by using an electronic DC-DC converter for accessories. Tapping of one or more of the pack batteries reduces the effective string voltage: the lowered voltage of the tapped battery(s) will limit the rest of its series string mates, and plays bloody hell with recharging--not good.

I don't mess with AC stuff because of the expense, so I venture no thoughts. DC set-ups are relatively inexpensive, very robust, and fairly simple to maintain, and charging can be simple plug-in to the utility grid or by solar panel set-up (PV panels are NOT cheap, but sometimes you can get them slightly damaged, or old, and rig around the problem areas). I am not keen on the idea of hybrids because of the ICE being used dually to charge packs (as a generator) and act as a traction device--problems cascade with multitasking, not that it can't be done, and done well.

AS far as efficiency goes, it is a product of every component's efficiency: if I spend big $$$$ for 99+% electronic components, then throw in a clunker electric motor at 75%, I've wasted money because my efficiency has now dropped in the averaging.

The Big Boys know their stuff, but I get worried when they don't reveal basic specifications; leave the smoke and mirrors stuff for politicians.

NoFederales

[lectrobyte]

25. Not really talking about configuration of batteries, but the design

of the drivetrain and how the power is distributed from the gasoline engine and electric motor. A description here:

http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-center-how-hybrid-cars-work-under-the-hood-2.html

[JohnWxy]

11. This is certainly an exciting technology, but the auto world is really waiting to see if GM can

really pull this off as soon as they say they can. Everyone, including GM, recognizes this as a real "hail mary" pass for GM. They are trying to take a concept car from clay and numbers on a pad to a production vehicle in 2 years - an amazing feat, if it can be done.

Once you get past the question of can they do it by 2010? .. the next question is, and it's a biggie, How many are you going to be able to sell at $37,500 (the mid point of a price range given by Rick Waggoner for the Volt)?

I am hopeful that GM does pull this off, but I don't think they are going to be able to sell very many of them early on just because of the price and the fact that it's just off the drawing board and there are bound to be a lot of bugs to be worked out with cars sold to the public (ordinarily you would have a period of testing with prototypes and preproduction models before you go to full production and sales to the public). Now CADCAM can speed this up quite a bit but there really is no substitute for producing a production model and then seeing how it functions in the real world. In reality they will be doing this testing with the first few years of buyers of the Volt - unless they delay selling it - which they pobably can't do for financial reasons. They have got to get some cash flow coming in.

GM has entered into an agreement with Ford to share engine technologies. I think this is so GM can get there hands on Ford's ethanol enabled direct injection engine which will cost about $600-$1,000 more to produce and has been shown with a prototype by Ford to get 25% to 30% better gas mileage using ethanol(5%). Sales of cars with this engine (at a more affordable price for the average consumer) could give GM the cash flow to stay in business until the Volt numbers build.

[kristopher]

13. This reminds me of the change over

From rear wheel drive to front wheel drive.

[FREEWILL56]

28. After reading the posts here I think I need to point out some things.

Many feel that the Volt is a revolutionary new thing. It isn't as it's just an ev. Many think what GM said about double the price to be true because you got double the stuff with both gasoline engines (more on this) and electric engines. Pure bullshit as the costs aren't that much and they really don't want this to take off as was eveidenced in the past so they figure if you want it then pay us double for it. The Volt is basically an ev with plug in ability. They figured 40 miles tops was too much of a drawback so what they did was to put a gasoline generator into it. That is detrimental in that the car not only needs to recharge the batteries, but it also needs to drive the electric motor too or the batteries won't get recharged. Remember this thing was meant to be plugged into the utility ac for a proper recharge and generators will either be far too big in supplying both recharge power and electric motor needs, suckling much gasoline, or it will be undersized as supplemental only just in case you went too far. The only reason it is considered a hybrid would be because it has the gas generator in it and we know nothing of this generator, its capacity, and whether it is of the inverter type design to get the most from the generator and conserve some fuel. The gas engine is not connected to the drive train like other hybrids.
As to the battery life, I'd be skeptical it would ever get to 50,000 miles before needing new batteries. Batteries have cycle lives and it remains to be seen they would be capable of 100,000/40=2500 full cycles in any and all weathers. Going by wiki it shows the li-ion battery to have a typical cycle life of about 1200 or less than half what 100,000 miles would need. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-ion
I must also point out that high torque is good on an ev and depending on the electric motor it usually exceeds a gasoline engine's abilities on going from 0-60. I also found that they are vaugue about the milage because they did say they needed to streamline the car aurodynamically to achieve the 40 mile range and do not state what city driving ranges that lack large winds on it would be like.
Overall I'd say it's about time they did do this, but they are reluctant to do it and the price reflects this. I believe they hope to kill the idea of a good ev and their reasons are the same as their past reasons were.

[kristopher]

29. Your "points" aren't very sharp

You have no way of knowing any of the things you claim. Your initial criticisms amount to a failure to understand the series hybrid design; it is amazing that you persist in these fallacies even though you admit you don't know anything about the actual configuration of the car. I mean, you are sure the on-board generator is either too big or too small. That's a joke, right?

Lithium batteries come in a wide variety of configurations and chemistries. You have no idea what battery is being used in the Volt, but you use a number that is supposedly "typical" that you got from wiki. Now, I like wiki, but your use of it is extremely lame. Do you realize that Lion batteries are mostly used for non-auto applications, right? Did you bother to check any information on batteries being used and tested in automobiles? A123, Tesla, Lightning, and EBox are 4 easily accessed sources right off the top of my head that say your "skepticism" is misplaced. 10,000 cycles is closer to being typical of recharge ability for lithium ion batteries being used in EVs.

The gas mileage rating is vague not because they need to streamline the car, it is because it runs on ELECTRICITY!!! How, exactly do you compare miles per GALLON for a car that runs mostly on grid derived electricity?

[FREEWILL56]

30. Slow down there as you make talk of me as if I be just anti Volt.

I'm not anti Volt or anti ev or anything as you imply and you act as if I've been doing some kind of bad talk for decades or something. I'm more into renewables and such than you'll ever be able to grasp the concept of and I favor the production and use of evs. I admitted nothing of being dumb about anything here. My skeptism goes against the auto industry and not the technology. Did GM say what they are using specifically? No, of course not, and those cheap bastards would put something typical or cheap in there.
Am I joking about the generator? Not at all because it would need to be large to provide enough power to supply the charge currents to recharge the batteries and the currents needed to run the ELECTRIC MOTOR at the same time and is being done with a GASOLINE GENERATOR. Now did they specify what the generator capacity is? No. Knowing GM they put something small in there and the batteries won't get their proper charge as the generator is being used to run the car and I did not say anything about MPG, but using gas is still detrimental to the cost effectiveness of the car.
As to my qualifications, I have a degree in electronics. What the hell do you have besides a bad attitude towards people making some points that dissagree with your pretty picture of the auto industry? Also note that my post, #28, was NOT addressed to you, but to all in general making your attack of me rediculous, so back off.

[kristopher]

31. Back off?

Nah. Your criticisms are baseless bad-mouthing. You have no idea whatsoever as to the specific technologies being employed nor whether they are being used appropriately. Simply put, you are spouting a load of crap. Your first attempt tried to paint it as technology and now you are trying to shift the criticism to the company. They may, in fact, screw up the execution. But so far there is no basis AT ALL for the shit you are saying.

[FREEWILL56]

32. Whatever you say expert. Have it your way.

I guess if they had a bridge to sell you you'd be first in line while you call my questioning of it unwarrented as being from somebody who knows nothing as nobody is allowed to disbelieve GM even if they pulled a fast one in the past. Gotcha. If I'm wrong then how do you know I'm wrong and again, what are your qualifications that you can say anything about it for sure? People here can decide for themselves and don't need somebody blindly defending GM without some facts being counterpresented that you aren't doing and you have no credentials at all.
Do come up for air once in awhile and clean off your face.

[kristopher]

33. I'm not the one making false claims

I'm not the one making false claims, that is strictly your territory. You seem to have no ethical compass to show you the path to simple truth telling. That's one of the worst problems in our society, IMO.

[FREEWILL56]

34. False claims? Not I, for you make claims I never said like about MPG.

Don't know your problem with me, but false claims I didn't make so take that back to the company as you act as if you work for GM oh experted one. Well, if you do then present something you say I falsely claimed that you can prove to be otherwise that I didn't say out of speculation for their wonderful past record and lack of disclosure of pertinent information relevant to the areas I brought up. Unless you can't address the points I brought up about the car without attacking me then don't bother with replying to me.

[kristopher]

35. ...

"
Many feel that the Volt is a revolutionary new thing. It isn't as it's just an ev. Many think what GM said about double the price to be true because you got double the stuff with both gasoline engines (more on this) and electric engines. Pure bullshit as the costs aren't that much and they really don't want this to take off as was eveidenced in the past so they figure if you want it then pay us double for it. The Volt is basically an ev with plug in ability. They figured 40 miles tops was too much of a drawback so what they did was to put a gasoline generator into it. That is detrimental in that the car not only needs to recharge the batteries, but it also needs to drive the electric motor too or the batteries won't get recharged. Remember this thing was meant to be plugged into the utility ac for a proper recharge and generators will either be far too big in supplying both recharge power and electric motor needs, suckling much gasoline, or it will be undersized as supplemental only just in case you went too far. The only reason it is considered a hybrid would be because it has the gas generator in it and we know nothing of this generator, its capacity, and whether it is of the inverter type design to get the most from the generator and conserve some fuel. The gas engine is not connected to the drive train like other hybrids.
As to the battery life, I'd be skeptical it would ever get to 50,000 miles before needing new batteries. Batteries have cycle lives and it remains to be seen they would be capable of 100,000/40=2500 full cycles in any and all weathers. Going by wiki it shows the li-ion battery to have a typical cycle life of about 1200 or less than half what 100,000 miles would need. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-ion
I must also point out that high torque is good on an ev and depending on the electric motor it usually exceeds a gasoline engine's abilities on going from 0-60. I also found that they are vaugue about the milage because they did say they needed to streamline the car aurodynamically to achieve the 40 mile range and do not state what city driving ranges that lack large winds on it would be like.
Overall I'd say it's about time they did do this, but they are reluctant to do it and the price reflects this. I believe they hope to kill the idea of a good ev and their reasons are the same as their past reasons were."

[FREEWILL56]

36. Good arguement and explains everything, not.

Goodbye idiot.

[kristopher]

37. It's a self evident load of crap.