Audi president calls Chevy's Volt "a car for idiots"

[wtmusic]

I’ve come to know Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen as a passionate advocate of fuel-sipping diesel engines. That passion was on full display when I sat with de Nysschen at a media dinner in Carneros, Calif. (after test drives of three new Audi models), during which he sharply criticized electric vehicles -- including GM’s Chevy Volt.

He dismissed GM’s upcoming plug-in hybrid as “a car for idiots,” saying that few consumers will be willing to pay $40,000 -- the Volt’s estimated base price -- for a car that competes against $25,000 sedans and conventional hybrids. Nor, he noted, is the Volt a luxury car whose green-technology costs will be excused because it also delivers prestige or performance.

“No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla,” he said. “So there are not enough idiots who will buy it.”

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=1247701

[Deja Q]

1. Don't Johan know diesel pollutes far more? Do you want me to say what he can go sip on?

Corollas are shit too, BTW...

[TheCML]

3. Huh?

Corollas are known for lasting for ever, and Audi and BMW have clean diesel technology now that pollutes less than some hybrids.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237945.html

http://www.converanet.com/energy/clean-diesel-fuel-ulsd-what-it-how-its-different-what-it-means-auto-and-energy-industries

[thereismore]

7. You obviously haven't heard about new European diesel technologies. nt

[NNadir]

23. That depends entirely on whether the diesel fuel in quesiton has carbon-carbon bonds.

Diesel fuel exists that has the property that there are no carbon-carbon bonds whatsoever.

(That of course doesn't mean shit, because cars are intrinsically filthy, no matter how they are fueled, since cars are by definition an example of distributed energy.)

Coal, on the other hand, the fuel of choice for dumb fundie anti-nukes, consists almost entirely of carbon-carbon bonds.

Many fundie anti-nuke car CULTists like to pretend that the source of electricity is the wall socket.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1.html">It isn't.

Of course, dumb fundie anti-nukes are filled with could stuff, year after year after year after year after year they produce statements like "solar could," "wind could" and junk crap about their super duper fabulous dumb fundie IGCC coal waste dumps under ground that will remain for eternity.

In fact, though, the same dumb fundies haven't found a way to put the mountains back in West Virginia, nor do they have any fucking idea about where to store 20 - 30 billion metric tons of dangerous fossil fuel waste generated each year.

The car cannot be made "green." Not with electricity, not with anything.

There are no "green" Audis, no "green" Toyotas, no "Green" Chevys.

Period.

[Buzz Clik]

2. One should take care when calling competitiors and potential customers "idiots," particularly when..

... the only alternative you're offering is a diesel engine.

[MindPilot]

4. I call the Audi "a car for pretentious pricks"

So there.

[orwell]

5. Audi...

...the German word for mechanic.

[wtmusic]

6. de Nysschen's explains remark:

An online report today, subsequently picked up by various other forums, left an unflattering sense of my feelings toward electric vehicles and the people who support their development. Let me clearly state that, in my opinion, electric vehicles will be part of the future transportation of society – but only if we go about it the right way. In fact, Audi is working on electric vehicles.

I do not specifically recall using the term "car for idiots" during my informal conversation with the writer. It was certainly not my intention to leave the impression that I'm opposed to electrical vehicles, and if I was unclear on either of those points then I need to eat crow.

What I do recall is the essence of my contention, namely that the feasibility of the Chevrolet Volt as a concept is questionable. And that policy decisions – and the industry's reactions to those decisions – are leading us toward a technology that may sound tempting on the surface, but, as of now, also contains many deep and unsolved economic and technological compromises.

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/03/audis-de-nysschen-responds-to-volt-for-idiots-story/

[kristopher]

8. Translation

The thought of Audi trying to meet near term Zero Emissions Standards is making urine puddle in my shoes...

[joshcryer]

10. ...and it'll be marketed at the Audi consumer level.

Imagine some a bit poop in his pants while you're at it.

[Fotoware58]

9. Oops!

I see that Audi subscribes to the Paris Hilton concept of marketing and public relations!

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. Coca-Cola president says Pepsi tastes like urine

“I certainly wouldn’t drink it, but I might pour it on my plants…”

[old mark]

12. He has a lot of fucking nerve considering the abysmal quality record

of Porsche/Audi cars over the last few years. The Consumer Afairs website has a forum for complaints just about Audis.
It is 6 pages long.
They seem to have completely stopped caring about their customers.

mark

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. wtmusic left out some very important text

His comments were actually are aimed at all electric cars…

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/autosblogpost.aspx?post=1247701

…

He did add that plug-in hybrids are good in concept and hold advantages over diesels in stop-and-go driving. But for the moment, de Nysschen noted, electric vehicles (EVs) are more about making a statement.

“They’re for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are,” he said.

De Nysschen expressed frustration with regulators and policymakers, saying the public has been hoodwinked into believing that EVs are the only answer to global warming. The U.S. government, he said, is pouring billions of dollars into EV technology, yet diesel technology could deliver a more immediate and dramatic decrease in global-warming emissions. And the man knows of what he speaks: Modern diesels already power half of Audi’s cars in Europe and have helped Audi dominate recent runnings of the 24 Hours of LeMans. Diesels have been shown to emit 25 percent less carbon dioxide than gasoline engines, while using 25 to 35 percent less fuel.

Mass electrification of cars, he argued, would result in a net increase in carbon dioxide emissions, because so much of America’s electrical grid relies on dirty coal for its energy. Cleaning up the nation’s power grid is the real priority, he said, and only then can EVs make environmental sense.

…

[wtmusic]

14. He said, "All electric cars are for idiots"?

Maybe you could show me where.

[OKIsItJustMe]

17. I guess you didn’t read the article

The “Volt” is simply one example of an electric car to him. For example:

…

The Audi of America president ended with a bold prediction: The Volt will fall flat. And the federal government, having publicly forced GM to develop electric cars, will subsidize the Volt to save face and boost sales.

…

Which other “electric cars” is he referring to GM developing?

[wtmusic]

21. I have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Is this another OKIsItJustMe can't-admit-I'm-wrong-parse-o-rama, or are you actually trying to make a point? :silly:

[OKIsItJustMe]

29. You only posted part of the article, because it specifically mentioned the “Volt”

His criticism however is not of the “Volt” so much as it is of electric cars in general, the “Volt” simply being one very well publicized example.

I've made essentially the same observations he did. i.e. that an electric car (including the “Volt”) is much more expensive than a similar conventional car, and I question how many people will buy them.

…

“No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla,” he said. “So there are not enough idiots who will buy it.”

…

Note that this cost premium applies to all electric cars. For example the LEAF, which is supposed to be “affordable.”
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/08/nissan-electric-leaf/

…

Nissan isn’t saying what the Leaf will cost — look for a price in the $25,000 to $30,000 range — but promises it will be the first affordable, practical electric car when it goes on sale in the U.S., Japan and Europe by the end of 2010.

…

The Nissan Sentra starts at 15,400.




Continuing on where you left off:

…

He did add that plug-in hybrids are good in concept and hold advantages over diesels in stop-and-go driving. But for the moment, de Nysschen noted, electric vehicles (EVs) are more about making a statement.

“They’re for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are,” he said.

…

So, it's not that the concept of a plug-in hybrid is bad (he says they're good in concept.) It's the price he's criticizing. His criticism is directed at all EV's. Although he isn't quoted calling all EV buyers idiots, his :sarcasm: is clear.

You're so focused on your irrational hatred of GM, that you refuse to see that.

[wtmusic]

37. Is it true you're a GM employee?

Just curious.

[OKIsItJustMe]

38. Nope, but nice canard. That way you can avoid addressing the question.

I've never even owned a GM vehicle.

On the other hand, the "Volt" is the first "hybrid" I’ve taken seriously.

[madokie]

15. Doesn't the volt have

an engine connected to a generator connected to a battery that an electric motor is connected too driving the wheels. To me that would be the ideal setup. On one hand the engine would/could be designed to run at only one speed so it could be tuned to be very efficient plus smooth operating and with low noise, all excellent attributes for a people mover.
I like this volt idea and may be interested in buying one one day.

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. You got it

However, the detail that you're leaving out is that the Volt has a large enough battery pack that most people can drive their daily commute in pure-EV mode. The engine only kicks in to extend the range beyond the (nominal) 40 mile EV range.

One way to improve the design (in my opinion) is to use a Stirling engine for the range extender.

[madokie]

19. I don't know that much about a stirling engine other than its

an externally fueled engine that runs off temperature differences. It would still require a heat source of some type so it would probably in this case be gasoline. Is a stirling engine more efficient or is the lure because it can use a variety of heat sources? My trusty neighbor has a model stirling engine and we've played with it some but it seems to not be very powerful. Anyways the volt sounds like the ideal setup for maximizing the distance for the less cost. Oh and yes we could do 95+% of our driving with a 40 mile range.

I like to make things and my wife wants me to put together us an EV for that 95% or our driving and I'm looking into doing that. At the moment I'm studying using a small engine coupled to a generator connected to a small battery pack powering a three phase motor, kinda like the volt is but with only a few miles totally electric mode as that would take care of most of that 95% I was talking about. Its a mile and a half each way for her to work and back, throw in another half mile for stopping by the store on the way home and we're covered for most of the times.

[OKIsItJustMe]

20. Stirling's are more efficient

The biggest problem with them is that they really like to run at a constant RPM, but this is an ideal application for one.

GM worked on a Stirling/electric hybrid system in the late 60's:

They also worked on a prototype “EV-1” which used a Stirling to extend its range:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_series_hybrid

Dean Kamen (famous for the “Segway”) has also done a lot of work on Stirling engines, and recently installed one as a range extender in a “Think” electric car.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-green/blogs/cars-transportation/dean-kamen-deka-revolt-electric-car-stirling-461108

[sabbat hunter]

16. problem with the Volt

or any plug in hybrid is that they are NG for people who live in the city, do not have a driveway/garage to park their car and instead have to park on the street, sometimes a couple/few blocks away. Where are we supposed to plug in our cars?

[wtmusic]

22. Coming to your neighborhood

Parking garages with outlets

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/realestate/30posting.html?_r=1

[sabbat hunter]

24. Those are in manhattan

where they are existing parking garages that people use (and are very expensive). Most people in manhattan that have cars park on the street. In the outer boroughs garages do not exist, or are few and far between (there are some near shopping areas, but those are for short term parking only) The only parking alternative is to park on the street.

[kristopher]

25. Is there some reason

That the parking spots on the street can't be wired? Both the Smart Grid and V2G are efforts aimed at (among other things) making it possible to buy electricity from any outlet and have it charged to your account. It would be done by direct communication between the car's computer and the computer systems of the utilities.

In the near term, an EV isn't going to work for you.

For myself, I'm still waiting for high speed internet. I have a convenient plug for an EV, but no chance of high speed in the foreseeable future. I'll bet you have access to blazing fast internet, right?

Point is there are always trade offs.

[sabbat hunter]

26. with the street parkign

there is no "spots" just park in an open area, leave room for you to be able to pull out, other cars to park in front and back of you. You would have to line the entire street with outlets, leave extension cords long enough so that they reach the car. Additionally, you would have to hope that no neighborhood pranksters unplug the car while you are home, thus not near the car. Also you would have to make them high enough off the ground so that winter snows do not pile above them.

[joshcryer]

27. Put sockets on parking meters.

Most inner cities have buried power lines anyway.

[sabbat hunter]

36. most street parking

is meter free (except in shopping areas). In residential areas there are no meters.

[kristopher]

28. Screw it then. Ban cars in the city and get your lazy ass on a bicycle.

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. Green Car Reports: Volt Buyers 'Idiots'? Audi President Is The One Who's Wrong

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1034919_volt-buyers-idiots-audi-president-is-the-one-whos-wrong

Volt Buyers 'Idiots'? Audi President Is The One Who's Wrong

By John Voelcker, Editor-in-Chief, September 4th, 2009

We were going to let it slide, really. Just because the U.S. president of a major automaker calls the buyers of another carmaker's product "idiots" is no reason for us to sink to name calling.

But the hoohah has continued, and the misunderstandings seem to be growing. We thought it was time to contribute a few facts and some actual data to the uproar.

Electric cars? For "idiots"

…

He based his argument on two points: The Volt will never pay back its extra cost in fuel savings, and plug-in cars that run on electricity would "result in a net increase in carbon dioxide emissions" because much of the American grid "relies on dirty coal."

The first is just his guess, based on price rumors. And on the second, sadly, he is just flat-out wrong.

…

[wtmusic]

31. Well whaddaya know: GM sponsors "Green Car Propaganda"

#1 sponsored link

http://www.greencarreports.com/new-cars

Shop for Your GM Car

Shop GM Now: Find Dealers, Price, Quotes, Offers & More on One Site.
www.GM.com/shopcar

No conflict there

:rofl:

[OKIsItJustMe]

32. I believe you're a fan of AutoBlog Green

They have a press release, from the Horse's mouth: (emphasis added by me)
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/03/audis-de-nysschen-responds-to-volt-for-idiots-story/

…

I do not specifically recall using the term "car for idiots" during my informal conversation with the writer. It was certainly not my intention to leave the impression that I'm opposed to electrical vehicles, and if I was unclear on either of those points then I need to eat crow.

…

"Mass electrification" of the vehicles on American roads could lead to problems like a strained electric grid. Large-scale utilization of electric vehicles will require massive investment in new power stations that are much cleaner than the ones in use in the U.S. today. Otherwise, it could merely shift greenhouse gas emissions from the tailpipes of cars to the smokestacks of coal-burning utilities. That's not just my opinion. The California Air Resource Board this past April concluded that electric vehicles presently are second only to hydrogen cars in greenhouse gas impact when measured on a well-to-wheel basis.

Returning to the Volt, my point was simply one of its economic feasibility today. The 50% or so price increase that the Volt represents over a similar gasoline car cannot be offset through the savings from reduced fuel consumption. The only way to offset the extreme premium for the Volt is through taxpayer-funded subsidies. So I question if that makes economic sense.

Does that mean the Volt and other electric vehicles are forever impractical? Of course not.

…

See my posting above, which you haven't bothered to respond to.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=208368&mesg_id=208589

[wtmusic]

33. You have too much time on your hands.

He made many comments that day, but the controversial quote was this:

"He dismissed GM’s upcoming plug-in hybrid as 'a car for idiots'".

All there is to it. He singled out the Chevrolet Volt specifically. Got it? :eyes:

Instead of defending what's indefensible by ludicrous parsing and re-parsing, why don't you plant a garden or something?

[kristopher]

34. Is he right?

Do you have a case of red-ass about GM?

[OKIsItJustMe]

35. I see you have the time to respond though…

I don't care to see disinformation posted.