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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 09:54 AM
Original message
Large Fires Natural and Inevitable in Southern California
Large Fires Natural and Inevitable in Southern California

Excessive fuel treatments can increase fire danger

SAN DIEGO, Calif. - Recent news articles and editorial commentary have suggested that the US Forest Service is partially responsible for the Station Fire in Los Angeles County because it failed to "clear underbrush" in the Angeles National Forest. "The Station Fire is not the fault of federal land managers, firefighters, or environmental laws," said Richard
Halsey, director of the California Chaparral Institute. "Huge wildfires will occur in Southern California regardless of how the government 'manages' its lands; they are an inevitable part of life here."

Many fire scientists are deeply concerned by the amount of misinformation being released in response to the latest wildfires. "To state that the Station Fire could have been prevented if the Forest Service had only completed its planned "underbrush" clearance operations or prescribed burns in the National Forest indicates a profound misunderstanding of our region's fire-prone environment," Halsey said. "The San Gabriel Mountains are covered primarily by chaparral, not forest. There is no 'underbrush' in chaparral since the entire ecosystem is composed of native shrubs. Calling this area a 'forest' is a misnomer. Considering the condition of the vegetation and where the fire started, it is unreasonable to suggest that 1,500 acres of additional prescribed burning would have prevented the Station fire from scorching more than 145,000 acres."

Current estimates from USGS indicate there are approximately 10,000 acres of fuel treatments and more than 160 miles of fuel breaks within the Station Fire perimeter. Many of these areas have been invaded by highly flammable, non-native weeds. Scientists are currently analyzing what impact, if any, these treatments had in modifying the fire's spread.

Although news reports have continually emphasized that the Station Fire area had not burned for decades, about half of the area burned was within the average fire rotation period for wildlands in Los Angeles County. "The main reason this fire spread as quickly as it did," Halsey said, "had more to do with current long term drought conditions and the steep terrain than the age of the vegetation. When conditions are this dry, anything will burn-whether it be grass, shrubs, or trees."

Earlier this year, researchers Drs. Jon E. Keeley and Paul E. Zedler confirmed the importance of drought in large fires and that large fires have been occurring in Southern California long before we attempted to control them. They have shown that eight extremely large "megafires" (~150,000 acres) have occurred since the 19th century, and all were preceded by unusually long droughts, from 1-4 years. In 1889, the Santiago Canyon Fire burned more than 300,000 acres in San Diego and Orange Counties. This remains the largest wildfire recorded in California history.

Science and firefighter experience have shown that the most effective way to protect lives and structures is through proper community design and fire preparation around homes, not trying to strip the backcountry of native plant communities-which people erroneously call for during wildfires. Trying to clear vast areas of native chaparral will not only destroy valuable public wildlands, but will increase fire danger by replacing iconic, native shrubs like manzanita with highly flammable weeds and destroy vital watersheds that are critical in protecting our region's water supply and our communities from mudslides.

Rather than blaming land managers, fire agencies, or environmental laws for the fire, we need to take responsibility for our own properties, understand the natural environment in which we live, and value California's most characteristic ecosystem, the chaparral.

http://www.californiachaparral.org/images/K2009_Large_Fires_Debunking_EA.pdf
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Fotoware58 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Arson suspect??
Since he LOVES chapparal SOOOO much, that makes him a suspect!! I'll bet he's happy that all those pesky trees are dying!
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. There are no pesky trees in chaparral - just shrubs.
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Fotoware58 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I wonder...
just how many trees in the Angeles National FOREST were burned to a crisp!
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Angeles National FOREST
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 10:18 AM by tabatha
is a misnomer.

From wiki:

Much of the Forest is covered with dense chaparral which changes to pine and fir-covered slopes as you reach the majestic peaks of the higher elevations.

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Fotoware58 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Trees come in many different shapes and sizes
Are you THAT ignorant to think that 150,000 acres burned didn't have ANY trees in it.

Also, Wiki is well-known to be a suspect website. You didn't see ALL those trees on Mount Wilson, surrounding the observatory and antenna sites??
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Chaparral by all accounts from multiple sources
consists of shrubs, just not wiki.

It is the dry, combustible material covering most of the area that burned that allowed the fire to spread.

Of course, there are trees at higher elevations - but the "brush" is what caught fire.
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Fotoware58 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Looks like trees to me!!
img src=

img src=

img src=

Sure, the brush at the bottom was torched by an arsonist but, forests at the top are burned to a crisp. Also, the north and east-facing slopes are the ones that have the most trees on them. 150,000 acres burned those slopes, as well! Sooooo, now those trees won't be sequestering anymore carbon, as they released their own ancient carbon into our atmosphere.

Or, is THAT a "right-wing fallacy" as well?!?!?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Of course you are going to have trees at higher elevations.
Where are the lower elevation pictures?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I guess you don't live around here.

At least for that.

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Actually, I do.
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 09:37 AM by tabatha
Los Angeles "forest" is mostly chaparral, a shrubby environment. (That is why some areas are called elfin forests.)

There is montane chaparral, which includes some trees, but they are not as inflammable as chaparral.

"The San Gabriel Mountains are covered primarily by chaparral, not forest. There is no ‘underbrush’ in chaparral since the entire ecosystem is composed of native shrubs. Calling this area a ‘forest’ is a misnomer."

http://www.californiachaparral.org/2009fireinlacounty.html
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. I imagine the Native Americans had very effective fire maintenance stratagies.
They'd set countless smaller fires at appropriate times rather than wait for giant fires at inappropriate times.

European invaders dismissed and threw away thousands of years of practical experience.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. As opposed to Republicans who wipe out everything by... wiping it out?
n/t
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Jeep789 Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. So the fires are Democrats' fault???
You must be from the party of "personal responsibility". The one that blames all their ills on Democrats. How can anyone have a serious conversation with someone who spouts such illogic?
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Fotoware58 Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I blame BOTH parties
Political ignorance of science goes WAAAAAAAAAAY back!
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Jeep789 Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Then why did you only say Democrats?
Your logic is ridiculous. Neither party wants fires, nor are they responsible. What we need are real solutions. By the way, the American Indian way has been tried and in fact, currently in use. They do burn the brush but they never can do enough because they have to be extremely careful and the conditions have to be perfect. They have accidentally caused big fires attempting to burn the brush. It is so easy to sit back and blame everyone else.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Teabaggers are the science illiterates - just ask them about global change and stratospheric
ozone depletion.

Talk about yer stupid...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Most of the fires today are as a result of the actions
deliberate or not of the European invaders.

DO some research on Native American fire strategies - and it is not all that is made out to be.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. The Native Americans basically burned everything that would burn.
They didn't live lightly on the land -- they more or less treated it as a giant garden. Fire was the tool they used to clear it. After a few thousand years the "natural" environment of North America reflected that.

I'm too much a student of Daniel Botkin and haven't got hardly any romantic notions about the "natural" environment or Native American cultures.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. And that is why non-native grasses
colonized California so rapidly after Europeans came here, to where 99% of grasses are alien.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Thanks for that link.
I know about Teller, but not much about Botkin.
I have ordered a couple of his books.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. A relatively easy way to prevent these kinds of fires.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. I've been wondering about the fire-breaks in ANF.
Whether they were/are effective in keeping the fires smaller if properly maintained, and whether that would be a good thing to do. I remember them running all over the mountains when I was a kid, scraped bare naked of vegetation, and I know they are much overgrown now, most if not all of them.
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