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I went to the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association Common Ground Country Fair yesterday

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:28 PM
Original message
I went to the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association Common Ground Country Fair yesterday
On the way, I passed the new 4.5 MW wind farm in Freedom, Maine. The blades were majestically turning even though there was little wind at ground level - and the 10 kW turbine at the farm up the road from the fair site was churning away as well...

I parked near MOFGA's 10 kW Bergey wind turbine. Even in a stiff breeze, it was completely silent.

MOFGA's ag exhibit building (where the organic veggies are judged) is heated by a massive, ground level solar thermal array.

There were tons of vendors of local and organic food (really good stuff - even organic fried dough - yum)- many powered by their own PV systems, solar ovens or wood furnaces.

There were tons of wind and solar vendors too. The most intriguing was a relatively new vertical axis turbine called "Gus" . The demo unit was less than 6 feet tall. A bunch of us were speculating on the output rating - it looked too small to generate significant power. When the vendor returned from the privy, he explained that the demo was the "real thing" and was rated at 1 kW....

On the way out, I loaded up with organic veggies for our (now) annual 100% local/organic Thanksgiving Feast.

There are a lot of folks here at DU that hate organic food, solar and wind energy, and the whole idea that our society could transform itself into a low-carbon low-input economy based on local organic agriculture and renewable energy.

It's too bad they couldn't attend this fair...and see what it's all about.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. I assume, of course, that when you "went" you "went" in your electric Tesla
after sorting out all of the electrons that were produced by burning dangerous natural gas in Maine.

I hope you stored that 65% (and I love "percent talk") of the electrons that come from dangerous fossil fuels in Maine in a safe place, like say the place that they store all of the dangerous fossil fuel waste in Maine, now that they are using more dangerous fossil fuel electricity than ever. It must be getting more and more and more difficult to pile up and store the sorted electrons, since Maine gets more of its energy from dangerous fossil fuels than it did in 1990, when only 39% of Maine's electrons were obtained from dangerous fossil fuels.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/maine.html

I'm sure too, that the batteries in the swell subsidized electric car were all "organic" as well.

Speaking as a person who has actually opened a science book in my life, I have a somewhat different definition of http://www.amazon.com/Mechanism-Theory-Organic-Chemistry-3rd/dp/0060440848">organic stuff than people whose contempt for science is legion.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actually, we went in my neighbor's Prius
I know that's unacceptable to you.

BTW you would have hated this fair...Maine environmentalists...hippies...dreadlocks...organic farmers...solar energy....wind turbines...

:D
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It is in fact "science" that is exposing our corporate/cjhemical
agricommerce for the damage inflicted on anyone eating the processed crap passed off as food.
Processed food is a mixture of chemicals designed to appeal to our eating habits with intention of providing health or nutrition.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. YOU ARE ((((((((WRONG)))))))) Maine generates 49% of its electricity from renewables
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/state_profiles/maine.html

(((((((((READING COMPREHENSION))))))))))

:rofl:

:rofl:
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. If you don't have anything positive to say
why bother?:shrug:
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. He never does...
he just likes to come on here and call everyone fundies who don't believe in his vaulted nuclear powered future of atomic flying cars and do it yourself reactors.

he's basically all about self parody now.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. You try so hard. Buck up little buckaroo, one day you will have a sane argument. :) nt
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. I wonder if the unimposing appearance of the vertical axis wind turbines
is partly responsible for their low (or non-existent) profile in the public consciousness. They don't LOOK like they're generating electric power, whereas a monstrous triad of spinning blades OBVIOUSLY means business.

The vertical windmills always remind me of the ventilators spinning on the top of farm buildings -- a sight so ordinary it doesn't even register on the brain.

Obviously the bird-kill would be much reduced (?eliminated?) with the vertical construction, and the space requirement would be much less. I believe Great Britain has these installed on homes fairly commonly.

Somehow in the U.S. we're conditioned to believe that "electric power" isn't real unless it arrives through miles and miles of wire. I shake my head at the shopping complexes paying the power company for air conditioning, while the acres of their great flat roofs bake in the sun.

Don't want to attract the attention of any nuclear-will-save-us fantasy kiddies here, but the other day a guy who should know told me that the worst wind areas in Iowa are better than the best wind areas in Denmark, where much (50%? can't remember) of their electric power is wind-generated.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. We joked about birds nesting in the Gus turbine sleeve
I was quite intrigued by it. Apparently you can mount them on a telephone pole. The inverter etc. can be mounted in a garage or basement for easy access.

And the price was right ~ $4k for the 1 kW turbine....

:hi:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. power =1/2 pAV^3
The fundamental formula for wind energy is

power =1/2 pAV^3.

Where p is the air density (just like any other density -- how much a given volume of wind weighs), A is the swept area of the blades (how much surface area of the turbine actually catchs wind) and V is the velocity of wind usually measured in mph. Notice that the velocity of wind is raised to the power of 3.



It is less expensive to get more power by increasing the size of the rotor (HAWT) than it is to duplicate the tower, transmission, and generator and electronics many time (VAWT)

Lack of consciousness isn't a cause, it is an effect.

Small scale wind of any sort is almost always prohibitively expensive - even in England. See formula above.
Avian mortality is an issue that is much more complex than looking at the blades of a HAWT and imagining things. With proper siting it is reduced to extremely low levels. Here is the position of the Audubon Society on the the matter:

http://www.audubon.org/campaign/testimony_0507.html
Congressional Testimony on Benefits of Wind Power

Testimony of Mike Daulton
Director of Conservation Policy
National Audubon Society

Before the Committee on Natural Resources
Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife and Oceans

Impacts of Wind Turbines on Birds and Bats

May 1, 2007

Madam Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee:

I am Mike Daulton, Director of Conservation Policy for the National Audubon Society. Thank you for the opportunity to testify regarding the impacts of wind turbines on birds and bats. I commend you for holding this important hearing today.

National Audubon Society's 24 state offices and 500 local chapters throughout the United States serve more than one million members and supporters. Audubon's mission is to conserve and restore natural ecosystems, focusing on birds, other wildlife, and their habitats for the benefit of humanity and the earth's biological diversity. Our national network of community-based nature centers and chapters, scientific and educational programs, and advocacy on behalf of areas sustaining important bird populations, engage millions of people of all ages and backgrounds in positive conservation experiences.

Audubon has a long history of involvement in wind-wildlife interaction issues, including efforts to develop state guidelines for wind development in California, Washington, Pennsylvania, and New York; providing substantive input regarding the Bureau of Land Management's policy for wind development on public lands; and working cooperatively to improve the siting, design, and management of wind facilities across the country.

As the threats of global warming loom ever larger, alternative energy sources like wind power are essential. Many new wind power projects will need to be constructed across the country as part of any serious nationwide effort to address global warming. This shift toward renewable energy is well underway. According to the American Wind Energy Association, over the past year the U.S. wind energy industry installed more than 2,400 megawatts of new power generation, making wind one of the largest sources of new power generation in the country at a time of growing electricity demand. The state of Texas recently announced its intention to become the country's wind power capital. Audubon supports the expansion of properly-sited wind power as a solution to global warming, and supports federal legislation, such as the Production Tax Credit and a Renewable Electricity Standard, which would further encourage this expansion and help to reduce pollution from fossil fuels.

At the same time, it is critical that this expansion be managed responsibly, because it is clear that wind facilities are capable of killing a large number of birds and other wildlife. Some early wind projects like Altamont in California are notorious for killing many raptors, including Golden Eagles. The lessons learned from Altamont still loom over the industry: if wind turbines are located in the wrong places, they can be hazardous and they can fragment critical habitat. In cases where the birds affected are already in trouble, such as sage grouse in windy parts of the Plains States, the turbines could push them closer to extinction.

Much work remains before scientists have a clear understanding of the true impacts to birds and wildlife from wind power. Scientists are particularly concerned about the potential cumulative effects of wind power on species populations if industry expands dramatically. Significant development is being considered in areas that contain large numbers of species or are believed to be major migratory flyways, such as the Prairie Pothole region and the Texas Gulf Coast.

On balance, Audubon strongly supports wind power as a clean alternative energy source that reduces the threat of global warming. Each individual wind project, however, has a unique set of circumstances and should be evaluated on its own merits.

Global Warming is a Severe Threat to Birds, Wildlife, and Habitat
Global warming resulting from the burning of fossil fuels is a severe threat to birds, wildlife, and habitat, and we have a moral obligation to take action now to control the pollution that causes global warming before it is too late. Global warming already is impacting birds, their prey, and their habitat, and these impacts will become more severe if action is not taken to greatly reduce pollution from the burning of fossil fuels.

Global warming threatens birds and wildlife in many ways. Birds and wildlife will face...
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Not sure about that ...
> I believe Great Britain has these <VAWTs> installed on homes fairly commonly.

Haven't seen many on homes but have seen quite a few on the roof of business
properties. I think it is easier to comply with planning requirements by using
three or four VAWTs on the roof than to get the same energy harvest by a single
(bigger) HAWT so even though the efficiency isn't as good (as Kristopher pointed
out elsewhere in the thread), the end result is acceptable.

:shrug:

On the other hand, maybe I haven't noticed simply because I don't pay enough
attention after finding out that wind energy is not viable for my house due
to the location. Mind you, solar hot water does very well (especially in the
summer - even the British summer!), so much so that we've just had to put in
a thermostatic blender valve at the hot water tank to ensure that the temperature
at the tap or shower head doesn't get to scalding hot (not a problem that I've
ever had with the gas-fired boiler in the past).
:hi:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Beautiful review, thanks for posting. People don't know what they're missing. K & R #3 :) nt
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stuball111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. I saw "GUS" at Rothbury...pretty cool...nt
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. I have a certain frothing-at-the-mouth alternative energy hater on Ignore.
I wonder if that first post is some snark from him?
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. As a novice I have two questions: Is there a url for this "Gus" guy?
And what does 1kw mean for a regular household? How much does it take to run a household?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Here ya go
http://www.tangarie.com/products/gus_vertical_axis_wind_turbine.php

A 1 kW turbine is rated to produce electricity at 1 kW at its optimum wind speed. If it operates at 1 kW for one hour it would generate one kilowatt-hour (1 kWh). If it operated at a lower-than-optimal wind speed it would generate less - if operating at 0.25 kW for four hours it would also generate 1 kWh.

Look at your electric bill to find out how many kWh you use per day or per month (it's usually stated on your bill). How much electricity you would generate with a wind turbine each month is site and turbine-performance dependent.

In Maine, domestic wind turbines produce 25 - 100% of a home's electricity. It all depends on the size of your turbine, how well it it sited (i.e., on top of high hill with no trees etc.) and how much electricity you use. The more efficient you are, the more you gain with your turbine.

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You might find this article interesting.
It talks about a super-efficient home (800whr/day, not even 1kwhr) but states the average American home consumes 45kwh a day.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/300whr_a_day_th_1.php
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Plan carefully if you are thinking about small scale wind.
A large, onshore commercial operation produces annually about 30% of the power that would be produced if the wind ran the generator at 100% capacity the entire year. This is referred to as the 'capacity factor' of a generating system.

Small scale turbines might (if they are carefully sited) produce 10-15% of their rated capacity - most produce much less because the purchasers didn't properly evaluate wind characteristic at the site. Of those that are properly sited, the difference between the capacity factor of large wind and small scale is the altitude of the blades. The closer to the ground, the more drag on wind from the terrain reduces wind speed.

To appreciate this take a 1kw turbine producing at 10% CF. There are 8760 hours in a year X .10 (CF) times 1 (the generators maximum production) = 876kwh per year.

The retail price of electricity is about $0.09/kWh so that electricity is worth about $78.


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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks - my SIL here in northern MN wants to do something like this.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. I couldn't go to the Common Ground fair this year. :^( *sniffling*
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