Air Car - Gotta See This !!

[garybeck]

http://greenenergytv.com/Watch.aspx?v=1213869141

some info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_car

[cliffordu]

1. I want one. Right now.

[garybeck]

3. Yeah, I'm just hoping my car lasts until these come out.

did you see they said the cost will be about $15,000. Who do I make the check out to?

[madokie]

13. You do realize that this video or one simular has been around for quite some time

several years and still nothing concrete about this car has ever hit the wire so I'm skeptical that its what they're saying it is here.
don't mean to rain on any parades or anything just don't want to see too many high hopes get blown away

[napi21]

2. WOW! I want one too! That's really terrific. n/t

[garybeck]

4. can someone explain how this has <0 recs?

two comments of people saying they want one, and there are <0 recs?

[cliffordu]

5. No - but I just recced it back to zero.

Some people on this board just really suck, I guess.

[thunder rising]

7. and I added the +1 .. .this has got to end. Mods you have got to peek under the covers and get rid

of whoever is destroying the integrity of the site.

[MH1]

17. because there are many people who firmly believe this is a scam

and that scams shouldn't be recced to greatest? :shrug:

[thunder rising]

6. The unrec demons are viscous tonight. I cannot see what is objectionable about this

can somebody clue me in?

I think think the concept is cool.

[MineralMan]

15. Flowing slowly, are they?

[Dead_Parrot]

33. Aww Jeez, not this shit again.

Maybe because it gets posted every 6 months with no actual production? Originally slated to appear in 2000, and it's starting to get old.

[Nihil]

37. Some people view these press releases as compost ...

... thus needing a good churn every now and then so that it can
rot completely rather than just smelling nasty ...
:evilgrin:

[TreasonousBastard]

8. The best one they have goes for 4 miles and...

could never come close to US safety standards.

It's been over 10 years MDI, and now Tata, have been saying it's "almost here."

[garybeck]

9. US "safety standards" or....

is it rather that the US auto and oil industry has influence over what is approved and what isn't.

seems to be the way things work around here.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. There's bumper tests, rollover tests...

all sorts of things a car has to pass in order to be sold here. Lots of cars sold all over the world aren't sold here simply because it's not worth the money to upgrade bumpers, side doors, windshields, and all the other stuff. Besides, all this stuff adds weight.

And forget that tinfoil bullshit about the US auto industry calling the shots-- this is the sort of stuff that the US auto industry fought against for years.

[wuvuj]

11. Range is 250 miles...air only...cross country as a hybrid....

....

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Has anybody ever gotten 250 miles? Or is that yet another promise?

[One_Life_To_Give]

12. And Mass production was slated for 2003, no 04, er make that...

The story of the "Air Car" reads like some bad Scam ala the xxx Fuel Saver etc.
The only thing they have been consistently taking since 2002 is investors money. Without "ANY" units in production and sale in "Any" country. By contrast Tesla and a variety of niche vehical manufacturers spead across the Globe have gone from zero to production in less time without all the fanfare.

[madokie]

14. This is a scam and it was the first time i seen the first video of the air car

a couple three or more years ago

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinrobot]

16. Compressed air cars less efficient than electric cars

It has been assumed that compressed air cars are cleaner than battery electric cars, but the reality is they are quite inefficient. A new study published in the journal Environmental Research Letters reveals that while in theory compressed air cars seem like a potential competitor to EVs, when it comes to lifecycle efficiency, they just don't make the grade.

The problem lies in the electricity needed to compress the air - a lot of it is lost as heat. The study concludes that even under ideal circumstances, the compressed air car is far less efficient than a battery-powered electric one and results in more GHG emissions than a conventional gas-powered car with our current coal-heavy energy mix. Lifecycle analysis showed compressed air lagged far behind electric vehicles in energy required, emissions and costs.

Lastly, battery technology is advancing everyday and is already well-tested and reliable. Compressed air technology is not likely to advance as quickly or as assuredly, meaning compressed air may still find a home in small urban vehicles, but its reach will be limited.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/1234/compressed-air-cars-less-efficient-than-electric-cars.html

----
Also, compressed air stores very little energy per unit volume. The AirPod's 200-liter tank doesn't carry much more energy than one liter of gasoline.

[garybeck]

19. that's funny because

an air compressor is basically a motor that is run by electricity. Sound familiar? Last time I checked, there's an electric motor in an EV too.

Also, if storing electricity as compressed air is so inefficient, somebody better tell these guys:

Scientific American: "Excess daytime energy would be stored as compressed air in underground caverns to be tapped during nighttime hours."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan&page=1

[Javaman]

20. Why not just have an electric car then?

I was all hyped about this air car myself. I have been following the tech for a number of years, but then I thought, "why add an extra link?"

Just make it all eletric.

:shrug:

[garybeck]

24. because batteries, at least NiMH batteries, are extremely NASTY

just google Sudbury, Ontario. It's one of the most environmentally devastated places on the planet, thanks to nickle processing.

batteries are also very heavy, which adds to the load of the vehicle.

I was just reading that the current setup for most hybrids keeps the batteries at between 40-60% of DOD (depth of discharge), to maximize life. What a waste of space, weight, and nickle!

[Javaman]

25. But if the motors that drive the compressor are run on batteries...

doesn't that leave the same issue, just smaller?

And because it uses less batteries, more cars can be produced because not as many batteries are needed for each car.

I am still having an issue with the logic.

I know full well of the environmental impact of battery production.

What I think is being grossly overlooked by everyone in the world (done intentionally? :shrug: ) is the environmental impact of going "green".

[garybeck]

28. no, the motors that run the compressors do not run on batteries

they get their electricity from the grid.

[tinrobot]

27. Modern EV batteries are mostly lithium, not nickel.

They're also 3 times lighter, hold more charge, and have longer lifcycles.

[garybeck]

29. Well someone needs to update the Wikipedia page on Prius then...

because last time I checked it said that Toyota introduced "experimental" litium battery packs and their current line still uses NiMH. Is this incorrect?

also, I have not looked into the environmental effects of lithium batteries.

[tinrobot]

31. Toyota announced a lithium Prius just this week

Toyota Confirms 2009 Model Lithium-Ion Prius -- No Talk of Plug But Promises of More Power

http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/700.html

[garybeck]

35. and how do lithium batteries stack up environmentally?

i have not researched this yet

[bhikkhu]

40. Apparently just fine

I haven't read much, but the chemicals in them aren't especially dangerous or toxic, which makes them a big improvement on just about every other current option just for that.

[garybeck]

30. also, battery chargers are not very efficient

most off-the-shelf battery chargers are about 50% efficient. you can buy high efficiency battery chargers that are about 80% efficient.

[tinrobot]

32. A phone charger may be 50%, but EV chargers are much better

The better ones are 90-95% efficient.

Here's one that's 96%:
http://www.eltekvalere.com/wip4/ev-powerchargers/c/detail.epl?cat=17145

Another that's 95%:
http://pages.interlog.com/~dgv/

One more that's "over 90%":
http://gas2.org/2009/08/04/aerovironment-unveils-800kw-ev-charger/

I also have personal experience. I own a 1974 MGB that's been converted to electric drive. As far as I can measure, my 15 year old charger is over 80% efficient.

[garybeck]

36. that's pretty good... but

i'm not just talking about phone chargers. i'm talking about large battery chargers. When you buy an automotive battery charger at the auto partsstore, they are typically about 50% effiecent. I have some experience too. I used to sell them. the most efficent battery charger we could find for renewable energy systems was the Todd which if my memory serves, it's about 85% efficient.

[One_Life_To_Give]

38. Home use Auto Batt charges are optimized for price

The Battery Chargers you will find in an Auto Parts store are designed for intermittent/occasional use and hopefully a mechanically harsh environment. A charger for Continuous use such as with a Solar/Wind System, Electric Forklift recharging and Telephone Co Batteries is more likely to be optimized for efficiency.

Also cars such as the Prius are using a High Voltage DC Bus which further adds effieciency by reducing rectification and copper losses.

[tinrobot]

39. A proper charger for an EV costs thousands

The one in the auto parts store costs less than a hundred.

But the cheap charger is only used a few times per year when our car won't start. An EV charger is used nightly.

[NoNothing]

22. Basic physics

Because of the universal gas law, when you decrease the volume of a gas while the mass stays the same, the temperature *must* increase. Likewise, when you increase the volume, the temperature *must* decrease. So when you actually fill your compressed gas tank, it will get hot. Very hot. That heat is wasted, hence the electricity used to power the motor that generated that heat is wasted. Electrochemical batteries also waste heat, but not nearly as much. (And ultracapacitors waste almost none.) Batteries are more expensive capital, though, which is why they talk about using air pressure instead at huge scales (generally under much lower pressure to decrease the heat wastage).

[tinrobot]

26. There's also an issue of range

200 liters of compressed air in this car has about the same energy as one liter of gasoline.

I've yet to see a compressed air car that can drive significant distances (more than a few miles)

[bhikkhu]

18. Already seen this one, its a scam basically

or at least a lousy misuse of time and energy. Compressed air engines are inherently inefficient, compressed air is a lousy medium for storing energy, and the thing is impractical.

You have to listen closely to the video to dig out the actual numbers (which I assume are best-case optimistic anyway, given the style of the thing), and they aren't much good compared to about any pure electric.

[Nederland]

21. This again?

How many times do we have to go over the idiocy of using compressed air in transportation?

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. FWIW, they do actually have some people outside the company using these now

They've made some progress in what sector they'll be viable in, and redesigned the engine.

The model which is now being tested by Air France and KLM as a runabout at airports is the AirPod: http://www.mdi.lu/english/airpod.php

3 seater, and weighs 220 kg - being under 500 kg, that means it doesn't have to pass European crash tests, it seems (I'd have thought it'd need the tests even more, but I guess motrbikes don't have to either ...). Range is a contention - the company claims 220km from full to empty, while other say it could be as low as 70km - see the IEEE Spectrum article: http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/deflating-the-air-car/0

It's been designed for a Paris rental scheme:

But MDI shifted course in January 2008, when the mayor of Paris announced plans to station thousands of rent-by-the-hour city cars around town. The competition to provide such ecofriendly personal transportation would be fierce, but the rewards to the winner could be great. So Guy dreamed up the AirPod as a pneumatic entry in that contest. Anticipating a quick road-certification process, because this featherweight minicar doesn’t exceed the 500-kg threshold for requiring crash testing in the European Union, MDI decided to throw its resources at the AirPod.

And that was with a new engine design - the earlier one had too many problems with the air lines freezing (and the claim that the range is restricted stems laregly from the implications of the redesign for efficiency). This new design fits Air France's needs, but it's a relatively small market:

The Nègres argue that although lithium-ion-powered EVs can beat the AirPod’s efficiency by a large measure, they make for unrealistically expensive cars. A lithium battery for the AirPod would cost almost as much as MDI will be asking for the entire vehicle. Most city cars on the market today use cheaper but heavier and less efficient lead-acid batteries. As a result, estimates MDI, those EVs actually suck more energy from the grid for each kilometer traveled than does the AirPod. Doug Nelson, an expert in hybrid vehicles at Virginia Tech, in Blacksburg, can’t confirm that assessment, but he agrees that pneumatic vehicles could be a winner for the city-car segment if lithium batteries remain too pricey.

The promise of a cheaper form of clean transport is indeed what convinced Air France to consider AirPods, according to Jérôme Bouteyre, the airline’s director of facilities management. EVs that Air France has tested as runabouts for its maintenance crews cost between 15 000 and 35 000—a steep jump up in price from vehicles of similar size with internal combustion engines, which can be had for less than 10 000. So the AirPod is economically competitive with conventional vehicles of this sort, and critically, it meets Air France’s modest needs—according to Bouteyre, a top speed of 30 to 40 km/h and a range of 10 to 20 km per day.

MDI could just scale everything up, of course, to get a spec more like a 'family car' - bigger engine, much larger tanks - but that would increase the recharging time a lot. If the lithium batteries can give weight savings so that the efficiency of all-electric cars gets better that this ultra-lightweight car, then they're going to be able to get a better range from the same mains charge.

Also, these are still prototypes. The company still suffers from the "this will be in production early next year" syndrome. There's a test drive by Edmunds here: http://www.insideline.com/mdi/airpod/2010/2010-mdi-airpod-first-drive.html , and they point out the suspension is rudimentary, and there's no air conditioning or heating (air con is not a big problem, however - the engine puts out cold air, and would cool the cabin easily; but heating could be a problem. They wouldn't want to add a battery to drive it, but they wouldn't want to take power from the engine either. If the range remains small, I suppose people won't spend much time in it, which makes the need to heat it less, I guess).