Experimenter sees clean world running on hydrogen

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.courant.com/news/local/statewire/hc-ap-ct-fea-hydrogenmanjan08,0,1794042.story

Experimenter sees clean world running on hydrogen

Associated Press Connecticut Post
January 8, 2010

…

Hydrogen can be extracted from fossil fuels, too, like gasoline. But Dolan prefers the electrolysis of water because the electricity he needs comes from solar cells, making it an energy source virtually free of pollution.

"This is all serendipity," he said. "I started fooling around with hydrogen a few years back and I asked myself, `What can you do with this?' One thing was a barbecue. Ribs come out great. And the only thing I waste is sunlight."

He said that since his electrolysis system takes place in an enclosed tank, the hydrogen gas "compresses itself -- I stop it at 2,000 psi (pounds per square inch)."

…

"Just about everything that runs off fossil fuel will run just fine on hydrogen," Dolan said. "You don't need a Ph.D. to do this stuff -- it's all grade-school science."

…

[postulater]

1. Intelligence - our most valuabe renewable resource!

[formercia]

2. One thing good about the Recession

is that there are tons of surplus high tech equipment going for a small fraction of what they cost new. For an experimenter or budding scientist, it's a bonanza out there.

[The Doctor.]

3. Huh... what kind of F^@#ing moron unrecs a thread like this?

K+R for something I've wanted to do for years.

We could so easily set up floating hydrogen farms at sea for both combustibles and electricity. If we really wanted to get off oil dependence, we could take any trillion dollars we've spent on stupid shit and permanently power the nation.

One time price- unlimited energy. It would create 100,000 jobs to boot.

Why any moron would unrec something so fundamentally good for the nation...

[formercia]

4. Because the World was created 3000 or so years ago

and we are all, except for a chosen few, are all going to die in a Year or so. Talk like this is giving people hope and cutting into their church donations.

[The Doctor.]

6. Yes, and we all know 'carbon-dating' became obsolete...

When carbon became monogamous 6000 years ago.

[RC]

5. What of the O2? It comes off the same water container that the self compressing Hydrogen comes from

Interesting comment at bottom of article -

"Interesting, but incomplete. The BTU/lb. while telling, is not all that telling. How large is a pound of hydrogen, and how large is a pound of gasoline? It's been so long that I forgot, but how much energy has to go into the electrolysis operation vs: how much you get out and how does that compare with gasoline or Diesel fuel. Unless you have a source of free energy such as Iceland has with geothermal, you still have to generate a lot of electricity needed to produce hydrogen. Nothing is free. Solar cells are great, but how many people know anything at all about how solar cells are made, the chemicals used in solid state processing, and the amount of energy it takes to produce solar cells? Again, nothing is free. I'm not suggesting that hydrogen fuel be abandoned, but look at the entire system it will take to make it practical before the pinhead politicians declare it a done deal. We can't allow the lawyers and politicians to dabble in scientific and engineering endeavors. We see how well that usually works out."

[wtmusic]

11. Comparing energy density by weight is pointless for hydrogen

Gasoline has 340,000x the energy density by volume of hydrogen gas, and even 7x as much as H₂ compressed to 700 bar (about 10,000 psi).

He is either mistaken or ignorant in his assumption that the hydrogen will "compress itself" - the energy has to come from somewhere, and a hell of a lot of it to boot.

[Canuckistanian]

7. As long as we all understand - hydrogen is a "battery" not a fuel

Nobody finds hydrogen "just lying around" like oil in the ground. It has to be made with energy - and lots of it.

It makes no sense to make hydrogen with commercial AC power. But Solar, wind, tidal and other sources might be ideal for production and storage of H2.

And we're going to have to learn how to live with gaseous H2. It's extremely flammable, burns with an invisible flame and is hard to contain in conventional containers without leakage.

There are lots of ideas out there, and what's needed is FUNDING for R&D before ANY of these big ideas become reality for the average person.

[kristopher]

8. Hydrogen wastes a great deal of energy

For any amount of energy we generate from renewable sources and store for use on demand, there is an energy cost. In practical terms this cost equals a requirement more wind turbines and solar panels to do the same amount of work. The difference is huge. If we need 1000 wind turbines to meet a certain need with the next WORST storage option, we'd need 1600 to do the same work with H. Compared to the BEST storage option it would be nearly 3000.

Full report can be downloaded here: http://www.alternate-energy.net/pdf03.html

Carrying the Energy Future: Comparing Hydrogen and Electricity for Transmission, Storage and Transportation
Patrick Mazza & Roel Hammerschlag
June 2004

Institute for Lifecycle Environmental Assessment
PO Box 22437 Seattle, Washington 98122-0437

Conclusion:


To summarize our findings and their implications for the future of the hydrogen economy:
Energy transmission – Direct electricity is far more efficient than ReH2. Comparable
scenarios show direct electricity delivering energy with 92% efficiency, while pipeline
scenarios range from 45-63%.

Energy storage – ReH2 is exceeded in efficiency by advanced batteries, compressed
air and pumped water storage by a factor of at least 1.6. In effect, using ReH2 instead of
other storage media would waste substantial amounts of a clean energy resource.

Local generation – Production of ReH2 at local vehicle fueling stations is no more
efficient than mass production and transmission from central points; if anything
economies of scale will favor central generation. Long-distance transmission losses of
electric and hydrogen transmission are nearly the same, and losses from on-site
electrolysis and H2 compression swamp those due to transmission. Electric power
demands for a local generating station serving 2,000 cars each day would amount to
57 MW, comparable to the load of a sprawling institutional campus.

Vehicle technology – EVs can offer twice the useful work from the same electrical
energy as ReH2-powered FCVs. A fleet of 10,000 FCVs might consume between 250
and 360 TJ of electricity each year. The same fleet of battery electric cars would
consume 180 TJ. Advanced battery technologies hold solid potential to substantially
overcome range limitations that have held back EV acceptance. PHEVs offer an option
that merges the best of EVs, including very high efficiency, with the unlimited ranges and
rapid fueling time of HEVs.

Biofuels and biomass – Advanced technologies could generate liquid biofuels or
biohydrogen sufficient to run the U.S. light vehicle fleet within the land base now in
conservation reserve. Land demands would be many times higher than ReH2. Different
fueling options might be best for different regions, depending on priorities for use of land
and renewable electrical generating resources.

CO2 reductions – The use of renewable electrical generation that generates the
greatest cuts is displacement of coal-fired generation. An equal amount of renewable
energy yields 2.7 times the CO2 cuts when used to displace IGCC “clean coal” plants
instead of fueling FCVs, and 3.4 times as much when used to displace current coal
technologies. Until a surplus of renewable generation exists, most new renewables
should go to meeting standard power grid needs. Natural gas also eliminates 2.7 times
the CO2 when displacing coal instead of running FCVs on NG-derived H2. This raises
concerns about the envisioned use of NG as a transition hydrogen source.

These conclusions are not favorable for the proposed “hydrogen economy.” More
energy efficient alternatives exist to H2 in transportation and energy storage that might
preclude mass-scale emergence of H2 technologies in these areas. Even when
renewable electricity becomes cheap and abundant, it might be more effectively
employed in advanced direct electricity applications. Land use and other environmental
impacts of major renewables installations will continue to be a concern.

Perhaps ReH2 or coal-derived H2 with sequestration will emerge as needed zero-carbon
vehicle fuels. The other contenders are biomass-based fuels and direct electricity
generated from sources with no net carbon emissions. A biomass future will depend on
the degree to which society is willing to devote land to growing feedstocks as well as
advances in biomass technologies. Substantial spread of EVs will depend on
improvements in battery technologies and economics, and charge times represent a
major hurdle. The advanced biofuel-powered PHEV could provide unlimited range, rapid
fueling and zero greenhouse emissions. Growing PHEV markets would help all battery
vehicles. The limitations and potentials of each fueling option suggest a movement from
today’s petroleum “monoculture” to a diversity of fuels that fit regional resources and
individual needs.

At any rate, the full-blown hydrogen economy is at least decades away. The National
Research Council recently concluded, “Overall, although a transition to hydrogen could
greatly transform the U.S. energy system in the long run, the impacts on oil imports and
CO2 emissions are likely to be minor over the next 25 years.” 118

In the interim, greenhouse gas reductions are absolutely vital, while complementary
research, development and deployment pathways could support multiple technological
outcomes. We conclude with a call for common ground between hydrogen economy
supporters and skeptics. The following development priorities could promote the general
goal of sustainable energy while enabling a number of potential outcomes:

Rapid expansion of renewables – If ReH2 is ever to be feasible, it will require an
abundance of low-cost renewable generation. A number of sustainable energy
advocates including the Union of Concerned Scientists are pushing a renewable energy
standard of 20% in the national power mix by 2020. California has mandated 20% in the
next decade. By building markets for new renewables such standards promote
economies of scale that bring costs down. “Green Hydrogen” advocates and those who
look to direct electricity-based technologies have clear common cause in supporting
measures to rapidly grow renewable electrical generation.

Hybrid vehicle technology - The HEV and FCV share a significant common technology
base. That is reflected in substantial support through the federal FreedomCAR and
Vehicle Technology Program. One-third of the amended FY 2004 budget request,
$29 million out of a total budget of $91 million, is for RD&D on hybrid and electric
propulsion.119 Additionally, both standard and plug-in hybrid applications are being
developed for FCVs that could make them more feasible. In essence, all the new
options incorporate electric drive trains, so much complementary development is
possible.

Vehicle-to-grid applications – EVs, FCVs and PHEVs charged by ICE or fuel cell, are
all envisioned providing support to the power grid. This will require development of
technologies to manage large numbers of energy storage and generating devices, as
well as economic models that provide car owners with incentives to participate. Such
incentives could support growth of markets for all electric-drivetrain vehicles.


Biomass – Similar feedstocks are proposed to feed both biofuel and biohydrogen
production. The great challenge for employing waste and residue biomass is setting up
economical collection infrastructure, whether the intended product is ethanol or H2. A
substantial biomass fuel system will also require cultivation of energy crops such as
trees and grasses. Development of biomass crops and collection is of general benefit.
The debate on hydrogen will continue, but it does not need to preclude broad
cooperation to develop sustainable energy technologies that serve multiple agendas.
The emergence of global warming and climate change represent a compelling call to
undertake this kind of collaborative effort.

Reducing greenhouse emissions to avoid catastrophic impacts on the global atmosphere
will require immense quantities of carbon-free energy, and the difficulties of supplying
sufficient amounts will only intensify with rising populations and standards of living. This
is the essential context in which the future roles of hydrogen and renewable electricity
must be explored if humanity is to meet the critical challenges facing it this century.

[Canuckistanian]

12. Thanks.

I was about to say that Hydrogen has intrinsic losses that have to be taken into account. It has its uses, but cost/benefit ratios must be considered.

[formercia]

9. Methane is almost as clean and a lot easier to handle.

We have Propane powered Busses that run in this area in the Summer, for the Tourons. That's pretty clean technology and it's easy to retrofit onto existing technology.

Actually, you can mine Hydrogen. Native Platinum Group metals have a substantial amounts of Hydrogen trapped in their crystal lattice. It comes off readily with heating.

[Canuckistanian]

13. Propane and Methane are two different animals

Methane can be produced in factory environments as a biofuel - propane cannot - and it has to be transported.

And I hear there are ways to extract H2 cheaply from natural processes. But I doubt whether Platinum processing could provide us with the sheer volume of H2 needed to power our homes and industries.

[wtmusic]

10. Sad that so many people fall for this crap.

First indicator of a hoax:

"Some of this technology is proprietary," he said.

Second:

"The hydrogen gas 'compresses itself'". :rofl:

Maybe you do need a Phd to do this stuff, Timothy.

[Canuckistanian]

14. It's amazing that nature does so much for us

Like compressing H2 into leakproof containers all by itself.

Why do we even bother impeding this all-natural process?