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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:13 AM
Original message
World Nuclear Generation Stagnates - capacity drops for second year in a row
http://vitalsigns.worldwatch.org/vs-trend/world-nuclear-generation-stagnates/

World Nuclear Generation Stagnates
John Mulrow | Mar 11, 2010

For the second year in a row, global nuclear generating capacity has dropped slightly, reaching 370.9 gigawatts (GW) at the end of 2009.1 (See Figure 1.) Just over 1 GW of capacity was added during the year, as India and Japan each connected a new plant to the grid.2 At the same time, Japan closed two reactors and Lithuania one, so there were 2,506 GW worth of shutdowns.3

While installed capacity has been virtually flat for the past five years, construction starts surged in 2009 thanks to a burst of activity in China. (See Figure 2.) Altogether, construction began on 11 nuclear power reactors in 2009, the highest number since 14 units were started in 1985.4 Some 56 nuclear reactors are now officially being built—but 13 of these have been “under construction” for more than 20 years, and 26 reactors have encountered “construction delays.”5

As noted, 3 nuclear reactors were permanently closed in 2009, bringing the total number of decommissioned units to 126, representing a retired nuclear capacity of nearly 40 GW.6 (See Figure 3.) The average age of all decommissioned reactors is 22 years.7 Hamaoka 1 and 2, the two reactors that were shut down in Japan, were originally damaged by a 2007 earthquake that struck while they were undergoing safety-related upgrades.8 The cost of seismic retrofitting of these two reactors was so high that the operator, Chubu Electric, decided to close them permanently and plans to build a single large reactor to replace them by 2018.9

<snip>

Unfortunately, World Watch Institute's "Vital Signs" are no longer free.

Via http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2010/03/world-nuclear-generation-stagnates.html
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Won't continue though.
Short term trends are insignificant.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. there is no indication that the economics are going to do anything but get worse for nuclear.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder what they used to replace those closed reactors
Here's what Lithuania did: http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/27289/

"The country will have to import its energy supply from Russia, in a time of economic recession, and a difficult financial situation."

I'm sure they just tapped into Russia's massive, clean, renewable energy grid, that's all.

:rofl:

I wonder if Japan simply fired up more "thermal stations" (aka coal and gas-fired plants) like they did temporarily after a couple of reactors went offline from an earthquake a few years ago.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Only "good" news is Japan has a reactor coming online in 2011
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 04:44 PM by Statistical
Shimane 3 a GENIII+ ABWR (Advanced Boiling Water Reactor) with 1373MW of capacity.

Bad news is your are right the 2 year gap between bringing oldest 2 plants offline and this reactor going online is 2 years of increased fossil fuel usage.

Japan has 3 other reactor starts (4.3GW of capacity) this year but they won't be providing power until 2016.
Fukushima 7 ABWR 1380MW 4/2010
Ohma 1 ABWR 1383MW 06/2010
Tsuruga 3 APWR 1538MW 10/2010
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well there certainly isn't any good news from Texas
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 05:00 PM by kristopher
What is the current status of the South Texas project, btw?

I heard that the price has already TRIPLED and they haven't yet broken ground; is that true?

And the Areva plant in Finland that was supposed to come online in 2009; how is that coming? Is it on budget and on time? No? Might be online in 2012 you say? And the price has what, gone from 4.1 to 7.2 billion *so far*?

Wow.

Did you see this graph yet?



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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The two prices in South Texas are apples and oranges.
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 05:47 PM by Statistical
One price is EPC (i.e payment to reactor manufacturer) the second one is the total project cost including inflation, contingencies, improved transmission, site maintenance, and capitalized interest during construction.

$10 Billion for 2 reactors is still only $4300 per KW substantially less than any solar plant built to date.
Why aren't you anti-solar?

It just kills you that there are so many reactors in the works. After 30 years of FUD the anti-nuclear agenda is falling apart.

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFN0110149520100301?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not even close...
The city has since pulled out. Of course, that was mostly because of the public scandal of pushing estimates known to be phony during the public hearings for the project rather than a sudden fit of real fiscal responsibility.
... One of the first movers – NRG Energy’s plan for two new advanced boiling water reactors at the existing South Texas Project – is in financial trouble. San Antonio is seriously considering pulling its City Public Service municipal utility – a 50-50 partner with NRG and Toshiba – out of the project because of escalating costs. Toshiba originally estimated the project cost at $8.5 billion. In late 2008, the cost estimate escalated to $12.7 billion (a figure that was not provided to the city government until late in 2009). There are independent estimates for the plant of close to $17 billion. (see http://www.ieer.org/reports/nuclearcosts.pdf )
The city government was scheduled to vote in late December whether to go ahead with its participation in the South Texas expansion, but has delayed the vote.

http://www.powermag.com/blog/index.php/2010/01/07/the-slouching-south-texas-nuclear-project/



More detailed background:
A reasonable estimate of the real cost in 2008 dollars of building a new two unit
nuclear power project is $5,022 - $6,160 per kW. If construction began in 2012, and
ordinary inflation is 2%, this implies a nominal cost of $7,000-$8,130 per kW, or
$20-22 billion.


How does the cost of nuclear power compare to other alternatives?
• A new nuclear plant will be 50% more expensive over its life than the primary
conventional alternative, combined cycle gas generation.
• Energy efficiency is widely accepted as the most cost effective resource, typically
one-half as costly as constructing new gas peaking plants. Texas could achieve
15,000-18,000 MW of energy efficiency over the next 10 years at just 15% of
the annualized capital cost per kW of the nuclear option.
• The real installed cost of $5,022 - $6,160 per kW is higher than any of the
following estimated installed cost per kW: (see chart in pdf)

http://www.cleanenergyfortexas.org/downloads/nuclear_report_breakdown_full.pdf



COSTS OF CURRENT AND PLANNED NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS IN TEXAS

A Consumer Perspective

A Report Prepared for Public Citizen, Texas Office
Author: Clarence Johnson
CJEnergy Consulting
Austin, Texas

PREFACE
With the nuclear power industry pressing for a new wave of nuclear construction, the nuclear projects proposed in Texas will be unlike those proposed by regulated electric utilities in other states in one important way — they are proposed by competitive power generators in a deregulated Texas power market (ERCOT). This report addresses the following questions about those nuclear generation proposals in ERCOT:
(1) What is the cost impact of the currently operating nuclear plants on consumers in the ERCOT market?
(2) What is the history of nuclear power costs and schedules in Texas, and what can that tell us about the likely costs of new nuclear plants?
(3) Are new nuclear power plants likely to be viable in the deregulated ERCOT market?
(4) Given that the power generators are not provided regulated rate recovery of new nuclear unit costs, why should consumers be concerned?

About the Author
Clarence Johnson has over 25 years of experience in the electric utility regulatory process. He was Director of Regulatory Analysis for the Texas Office of Public Utility Counsel until June 2008, when he left to engage in consulting. Mr. Johnson was chairman of the National Association of State Utility Consumer Advocate's economic and finance committee for more than 10 years. He has presented expert testimony in nearly 100 regulatory proceedings. He has been involved in prudence investigation proceedings for every nuclear power plant constructed by a Texas utility. Mr. Johnson has presented testimony on a wide range of issues, including generation capacity expansion, avoided costs, and the transition from regulation to competition.


EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
This report includes the following conclusions.
• The low operating costs of Texas' current nuclear power plants do not tell the complete story of their impact on customers in the ERCOT market. The low operating costs benefit the owners of the generation, rather than consumers. Moreover, consumers in ERCOT continue to pay off at least $3.4 billion for nuclear assets (net of revenues) through transition charges, as well as approximately $45 million in annual payments for nuclear decommissioning.
• Cost overruns were extensive in the U.S. nuclear power industry, and the cost / scheduling performance of Texas nuclear power projects were among the worst in the industry. The two Texas nuclear plants were 61% - 140% more costly and took 2-5 years longer to build than the average nuclear
power plant.
• Quality assurance / quality control (QA/QC) breakdowns were pervasive among the most costly nuclear power plants, and the nuclear projects in Texas had particularly significant QA/QC problems. Regulatory streamlining has not altered the requirement that nuclear construction projects comply with rigorous QA/QC. Standardized design is unlikely to eliminate QA/QC risks, and certain factors related to the new nuclear plant proposals in Texas could impose greater risks of QA/QC cost / schedule impacts.
• A reasonable estimate of the real ($2008) cost of building a new two unit nuclear power project is $5,022 - $6,160 per kW. If construction began in 2012, and ordinary inflation is 2%, this implies a nominal cost of $7,000 - $8,130 per kW, or $20 - $22 billion.
• On a real ($2008) levelized busbar basis, a new nuclear project will be 50% more costly over its life than the primary conventional alternative, combined cycle gas generation. Building a new nuclear project in ERCOT is not likely to produce a positive internal rate of return. A portfolio of energy efficiency, alternative resources, and conventional generation is likely to be more cost-effective.

Given the high costs of the nuclear option, cost overruns are likely to result in pleas for additional public subsidies. The two generation companies proposing to expand their existing nuclear projects in Texas are dominant in their relevant geographic markets and in the baseload generation product market. The expanded nuclear plants will increase the potential for market power within ERCOT, and the likelihood of financial losses resulting from construction of the plants will increase the temptation for owners of the plants to raise prices above competitive levels.
http://www.publiccitizen.org/documents/Costs%20of%20current%20and%20planned%20nuclear%20power%20plants%20in%20texas.pdf


Want more? OK.
Warning From Moody`s Followed by Mothballing of New Reactor Plans in Texas and Ontario; Developments in Line with Cooper Report from June Projecting Trillions in Excess Costs for Nuclear, Compared to Combination of Renewables and More Efficiency.

WASHINGTON--(Business Wire)--
Three major developments in the nuclear power industry in late June underscore the key findings of the "The Economics of Nuclear Reactors," a report released on June 18, 2009 by economist Dr. Mark Cooper, a senior fellow for economic analysis at the Institute for Energy and the Environment at Vermont Law School. The Cooper report finds that it would cost $1.9 trillion to $4.1 trillion more over the life of 100 new nuclear reactors than it would to generate the same electricity from a combination of more energy efficiency and renewables.
Available online at
http://www.vermontlaw.edu/Academics/Environmental_Law_Center/Institutes_and_Initiatives/Institute_for_E
the Cooper analysis of over three dozen cost estimates for proposed new nuclear reactors shows that the projected price tags for the plants have quadrupled since the start of the industry`s so-called "nuclear renaissance" at the beginning of this decade - a striking parallel to the eventually seven-fold increase in reactor costs estimates that doomed the "Great Bandwagon Market" of the 1960s and 1970s, when half of planned nuclear reactors had to be abandoned or cancelled due to massive cost overruns.
Cooper said that three late June developments provide new evidence of the validity of the cost-related concerns documented in his report:
* On June 30, 2009, Exelon cited "economic woes" as a major factor in postponing for up to 20 years plans to build two nuclear reactors at its site in Victoria, Texas. (See
http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2009/jun/30/gs_exelon_070109_56587/?business&local-news
for local coverage of the decision.)
* On June 29, 2009, the Government of Ontario announced that it has suspended the competitive bidding process to procure two replacement nuclear reactors planned for a Darlington, Ontario site. As the New York Times reported: "Two years into a $20 billion nuclear upgrade project meant to replace aging reactors with next-generation technology, the Ontario government postponed the entire process on Monday, citing excessive cost and uncertainties involving the ownership status of the sole Canadian bidder ... Yesterday`s move is a setback for the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, the 57-year-old government-owned corporation that has built all of Canada`s reactors and could soon be sold off to a private investor." (See
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/ontario-puts-nuclear-expansion-plans-on-ice/.)
* On June 23, 2009, Moody`s Investor Services issued a report titled "New Nuclear Generation: Ratings Pressure Increasing." The summary to the report included the following: "Moody's is considering "taking a more negative view for those issuers seeking to build new nuclear power plants ... Rationale is premised on a material increase in business and operating risk ... most utilities now seeking to build nuclear generation do not appear to be adjusting their financial policies, a credit negative. First federal approvals are at least two years away, and economic, political and policy equations could easily change before then ..." Cooper pointed out that even though Moody`s concludes that reactors might be financially viable once operating, the barriers to actual permitting and affordable construction may make it impossible to reach the operational new-plant phase. See the report summary at
http://www.alacrastore.com/storecontent/moodys/PBC_117883 and a related news
story at
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200906250936DOWJONESDJONLINE000658_FORTUNE5.htm.
Institute for Energy and the Environment at Vermont Law School, South Royalton,
VT.
Ailis Aaron Wolf, (703) 276-3265
aawolf@hastingsgroup.com



Oh and did I mention the estimate by the CBO that more than 50% of this new round of nuclear plants are expected to go bankrupt?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Kick
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks for the information. Like AGW, it will prove itself out.
Too bad with AGW it will be too late to do shit.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Has there been any studies to see what can be done to bring us back from the brink.
Say we stay above 350ppm for 2 decades? Can anything be done to bring us back below 350ppm.
I mean anything even if is radical.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The first step is stop increasing emissions.
Since we don't have a blank check the most straight line route is via renewable energy sources and energy efficiency. Before climate change entered the picture, we could accept the inefficiencies of boondoggles like nuclear power, a hydrogen economy and corn ethanol.


We don't have that luxury now. We need to roll out the noncarbon technologies that have the most bang for the buck, and nuclear power isn't it.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Maybe we could cool the planet with super strong air compressors?
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 05:24 PM by Statistical
Any studies on that?

Seriously though I was asking joshcryer because it seems likely that we will substantially overshoot 350ppm and remain above it for an extended period of time.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. There is a lot of research into mitigation.
That would include efforts to reverse the trend lines.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. No mitigation is happening, assuming you actually paid attention to COP15.
Just so we're clear here, we are on the highest end of IPCC emission scenarios. It's not good, whatever you may delusionally think.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Are you brain damaged?
Stop asserting beliefs to me I don't hold.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Oh right, I forgot, you don't think wind will save us.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't know if anything will "save us"
I DO know that the best route to noncarbon energy is renewable sources.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. ONLY if your highly pessimistic numbers for new nuclear bore out.
Like your highly optimistic numbers for wind aren't.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Right....
Unfortunately the MIT numbers from 2003 have shown themselves to be totally wrong. On the pother hand, those "highly pessimistic numbers" by independent analysts have ALREADY been proven to be on target.

The more you promote nuclear the more your true reason for being here is made clear.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. No new nuclear has even broken ground in the US.
So you have no legitimate numbers whatsoever.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Riiiiight...
The projects in Texas, Canada, and Finland are just figments of the imagination. Trying to limit a nuclear project to what happens after groundbreaking is par for the crazy course you like to follow...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Given the regulatory changes yes, it would only be sane to critique nuclear based on actual...
...construction.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Your fighting faith man.
He NEEDS nuclear to fail. He NEEDS it to be massively expensive and a boondoggle.

The reality is if the plants in GA and TX aren't built on-time and on-budget the rest will be canceled. The whole world will be looking at GA and TX to see if nuclear energy pans out.

I am willing to consider the possibility that it won't. It may be massively over-budget and over-schedule. If that happens as good as the potential is for nuclear energy I will flip a 180 from nuclear supporter to anti-nuclear. It may be possible that nuclear energy simply doesn't work in the United States for political and social reasons.

He is unwilling to even consider the possibility no matter how slight that a reactor can be built on-time and on-schedule and that doing so will result in low cost emission free power which may save the planet.

It is faith not logic.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. it is logical to reject ANOTHER 100 billion into a failed technology when we need it elsewhere.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 06:13 PM by kristopher
Based on current industry practices, CBO expects that any new nuclear construction project
would be financed with 50 percent equity and 50 percent debt. The high equity participation
reflects the current practice of purchasing energy assets using high equity stakes, 100 percent
in some cases, used by companies likely to undertake a new nuclear construction project.
Thus, we assume that the government loan guarantee would cover half the construction cost
of a new plant, or $1.25 billion in 2011.
CBO considers the risk of default on such a loan guarantee to be very high—well above
50 percent. The key factor accounting for this risk is that we expect that the plant would be
uneconomic to operate because of its high construction costs, relative to other electricity
generation sources. In addition, this project would have significant technical risk because
it would be the first of a new generation of nuclear plants, as well as project delay and
interruption risk due to licensing and regulatory proceedings.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Debunked. You know it. links have been posted before.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 06:22 PM by Statistical
Your misquote is for unrelated study 7 years ago when cost of coal & natural gas were much lower, there when no GenIII reactors had been built (all reactors being considered are already under construction in Japan & China), no likelihood of carbon tax or cap in the future.

Director of CBO would appreciate it if you would stop passing off 7 year old information from unrelated bill (which never became law) as relevant.

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=478

The assumptions and analyses supporting that estimate reflected information about the technical, economic, and regulatory environment as it existed in 2003, almost seven years ago. Such generalized estimates of credit risk may not apply to a guarantee for any particular power plant because of variations in the technical, economic, regulatory, and contractual characteristics of each project. Without such information, much of which would be proprietary, CBO has no basis for estimating the cost to the government of any specific loan guarantee of this type.


The CBO says it doesn't apply. I'll trust them over someone who thinks a air compressor can withstand the energy of a core meltdown.

COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE

Never an original thought. Never critical thinking just
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE

hope nobody notices this has been debunked before

COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE

"my air compressor is stronger than a containment building"
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE
COPY&PASTE

"containment can't withstand an impact from jet
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The situation is WORSE.
Instead of a 50% loan guarantee, they have had to bump it up to 80%. That increased exposure still isn't enough to attract investors so they have to provide low interest loans from government programs in addition to the loan guarantee.

That STILL isn't enough so they have to use Construction Work in Progress rate assessments against ratepayers to force them to pay in advance for a plant that might never generate a single watt of electricity.

Compounding all of that is a huge cost escalation in the price of building reactors that has emerged since the CBO estimate was produced.

NO ONE WILL TOUCH NUCLEAR WITHOUT ALL OF THAT BECAUSE IT IS A TERRIBLE RISK.


The fundamentals haven't changed IN ANY WAY for the better and the earlier analysis for the law not implemented is substantially correct.

Based on current industry practices, CBO expects that any new nuclear construction project
would be financed with 50 percent equity and 50 percent debt. The high equity participation
reflects the current practice of purchasing energy assets using high equity stakes, 100 percent
in some cases, used by companies likely to undertake a new nuclear construction project.
Thus, we assume that the government loan guarantee would cover half the construction cost
of a new plant, or $1.25 billion in 2011.

CBO considers the risk of default on such a loan guarantee to be very high—well above
50 percent. The key factor accounting for this risk is that we expect that the plant would be
uneconomic to operate because of its high construction costs, relative to other electricity
generation sources. In addition, this project would have significant technical risk because
it would be the first of a new generation of nuclear plants, as well as project delay and
interruption risk due to licensing and regulatory proceedings.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. His disinformation doesn't get to the actual environmentalists on this forum.
Believe me, it doesn't.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Yes, if he actually believed it was non-viable he would drop the rhetoric.
Th only reason he continues to spout disinformation is, like denialists, because he wants it to be true.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. We are going well above 500ppm and probably will hit our wonderful 3.0C target in spades.
Unfortunately the generation that seeded me won't have to see the results of their inaction. Yaknow, a billion people or more displaced due to sea level rise. Tens of millions dead due to food shortages, etc.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. But if it gets to 500ppm or higher can we ever get it back or will it be runaway.
Won't warming release CO2 from oceans which leads to warming which release CO2 etc.

Under worst case scenario say a decade above 500ppm can we do anything to bring it back down into balance?

Sadly I don't think people will wake up until it is too late so the question becomes what do we do when they wake up (other than point and say "told you so").
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Geoengineering then becomes the only solution, which is why the elites like it so much.
Turn those pretty blue skies (like we're enjoying today here in Colorado) into a nice clean yellow-brown haze, and volia, you just effectively cooled the planet. And really cheaply, too!

We need a decade of reductions until they flatline, and then we need to plant trees until our CO2 levels are back where they were before we started this mess.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. If you are angling for another justification for nuclear, you will not find it there...
No matter the application for the energy, it is less expensive to produce that energy using renewables.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. It's always about money for you.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. No, it's about reducing CO2.
With you, it is always about promoting nuclear power. You don't care that dollar for dollar and day for day we get far more carbon reduction with renewables; you just want to see more nuclear plants built.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. But the "cost of nuclear" thread I started debunked your dishonest statements.
You continue trotting out dishonest statements about the cost of nuclear, but we see that their numbers are completely asinine.

Basically this is a scenario were we are forced to sit back and wait and see who is right. If nuclear does bore out cheaper, I bet you'd still be against it.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. .
Based on current industry practices, CBO expects that any new nuclear construction project
would be financed with 50 percent equity and 50 percent debt. The high equity participation
reflects the current practice of purchasing energy assets using high equity stakes, 100 percent
in some cases, used by companies likely to undertake a new nuclear construction project.
Thus, we assume that the government loan guarantee would cover half the construction cost
of a new plant, or $1.25 billion in 2011.

CBO considers the risk of default on such a loan guarantee to be very high—well above
50 percent. The key factor accounting for this risk is that we expect that the plant would be
uneconomic to operate because of its high construction costs, relative to other electricity
generation sources. In addition, this project would have significant technical risk because
it would be the first of a new generation of nuclear plants, as well as project delay and
interruption risk due to licensing and regulatory proceedings.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Do you have any projections for emission decreases going this route?
No? I didn't fucking think so. We aren't building enough renewable to even keep up with demand.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Another disjointed nnadsesque blurt of nonsense.
We aren't building enough of ANYTHING to keep up with demand. The best technologies to do that with isn't a secret, they are renewables and efficiency. What is lacking is political will to build the capacity.

A large part of the problem is all the pigs (like nuclear and ethanol) that have their snouts in the trough and work against change until and unless they get the lions share of the money.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Pfft, and here you were lecturing me about "political realities" months ago.
I'm glad you've come to the dark side and realized that the political will is necessary.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Again you rewrite what others think.
I've never denied that political will is lacking. I've said that leaves us with the OTHER part of the equation - making new energy more affordable.

That is why I think you have no real concern about CO2 - you don't give a shit about what works best to reduce it. You have been on a mission to support nuclear from day one. Climate change is just your point of entry into the discussion, your way of greenwashing your opinion.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. If wind worked best and the magical markets were going to get us free of CO2...
...then it would be fucking growing at rates indicative of CO2 reductions. There are no projects to that effect, as coal is still the most popular energy source on the fucking planet.

You spend a lot of time here spreading disinformation about nuclear, a mostly CO2-free energy source comparable to Coal-CCS.

The costs of nuclear thread I made was very very enlightening about the real environmentalists on this forum. People here you cannot fucking question their environmental history are behind nuclear.

I ignorantly bashed nuclear for too long. It is an option.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Wikipedia has a wealth of information, the problem is that they're all costly.
The cheapest most effective way to mitigate climate change is to ... not have to deal with climate change. You do this by reducing CO2 emissions overnight (in a decade or so). Carbon taxes, export controls. Make CO2 as costly as possible now, because the future costs are going to be astronomical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_mitigation

Build 1500 or so nuclear reactors. Or build a million wind turbines and two billion rooftop PV installations along with 100k 300MW solar plants. You have a decade to do it.

What is happening now is this generation is forcing my generation and my childrens' generation to deal with their problem. It's fucking bullshit.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
42. 1500 nuclear reactors won't come close to stopping climate change.
Edited on Wed Mar-17-10 03:09 AM by bananas
You wrote:
"Build 1500 or so nuclear reactors. Or build a million wind turbines and two billion rooftop PV installations along with 100k 300MW solar plants. You have a decade to do it."

No, it's "and", not "or". Build 1500 nuclear reactors "and" build a million wind turbines "and" ...
Nuclear can only provide a small part of the solution.
And when considered in the full range of solutions, it's not necessary at all.
The other parts of the solution - which have to be there anyway - can each be scaled up to cover nuclear's proposed part.
Nuclear isn't necessary at all.
Now that we know it isn't necessary, we can ask whether it is desirable at all, does it have any niche applications where it might fit?
But when we look at the options, the answer is that the niche applications where it might fit are few and far between.
And they could easily be covered by other options.
So nuclear isn't needed at all.

Bottom line: those 1500 nuclear reactors would be a waste of time and money and do piss-all to stop global warming.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. You're right, I should hve said "5000 or so."
Edited on Wed Mar-17-10 04:38 AM by joshcryer
Sorry.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Where are we going to get the rest of the power?
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