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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 06:53 PM
Original message
Nuclear Power: Climate Fix or Folly?
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 06:56 PM by kristopher
Nuclear Power: Climate Fix or Folly?

Amory B. Lovins, Imran Sheikh, and Alex Markevich
April 2008 RMI Solutions article “Forget Nuclear,” updated and expanded by ABL 31 Dec 2008


Nuclear power, we’re told, is a vibrant industry that’s dramatically reviving because it’s proven, necessary, competitive, reliable, safe, secure, widely used, increasingly popular, and carbon-free —a perfect replacement for carbon-spewing coal power. New nuclear plants thus sound vital for climate protection, energy security, and powering a vibrant global economy.

There’s a catch, though: the private capital market isn’t investing in new nuclear plants, and without financing, capitalist utilities aren’t buying. The few purchases, nearly all in Asia, are all made by central planners with a draw on the public purse. In the United States, even new 2005 government subsidies approaching or exceeding new nuclear plants’ total cost failed to entice Wall Street to put a penny of its own capital at risk during what were, until autumn 2008, the most buoyant markets and the most nuclear-favorable political and energy-price conditions in history—conditions that have largely reversed since then.

This semi-technical article, summarizing a detailed and documented technical paper1, compares the cost, climate protection potential, reliability, financial risk, market success, deployment speed, and energy contribution of new nuclear power with those of its low- or no-carbon competitors. It explains why soaring taxpayer subsidies haven’t attracted investors. Capitalists instead favor climate-protecting competitors with lower cost, construction time, and financial risk. The nuclear industry claims it has no serious rivals, let alone those competitors—which, however, already outproduce nuclear power worldwide and are growing enormously faster.

Most remarkably, comparing all options’ ability to protect the earth’s climate and enhance energy security reveals why nuclear power could never deliver these promised benefits even if it could find free-market buyers—while its carbon-free rivals, which won more than $90 billion of private investment in 2007 alone, do offer highly effective climate and security solutions, far sooner, with higher confidence.

Uncompetitive Costs

The Economist observed in 2001 that “Nuclear power, once claimed to be too cheap to meter, is now too costly to matter”—cheap to run but very expensive to build. Since then, it’s become severalfold costlier to build, and in a few years, as old fuel contracts expire, it is expected to become severalfold costlier to run.3 Its total cost now markedly exceeds that of coal- and gas-fired power plants, let alone the even cheaper decentralized competitors described below.

Construction costs worldwide have risen far faster for nuclear than for non-nuclear plants. This is not, as commonly supposed, due chiefly to higher metal and cement prices: repricing the main materials in a 1970s U.S. plant (an adequate approximation) to March 2008 commodity prices yields a total Bill of Materials cost only ~1% of today’s overnight capital cost. Rather, the real capital-cost escalation is due largely to the severe atrophy of the global infrastructure for making, building, managing, and operating reactors. This makes U.S. buyers pay in weakened dollars, since most components must now be imported. It also makes buyers worldwide pay a stiff premium for serious shortages and bottlenecks in engineering, procurement, fabrication, and construction: some key components have only one source worldwide. The depth of the rot is revealed by the industry’s flagship Finnish project, led by France’s top builder: after three years’ construction, it’s at least three years behind schedule and 50% over budget. An identical second unit, gratuitously bought in 2008 by 85%-state-owned Électricité de France to support 91%-state-owned vendor Areva (orderless 1991–2005), was bid ~25% higher than the Finnish plant and without its fixed-price guarantee, and suffered prompt construction shutdowns for lax quality.

The exceptionally rapid escalation of U.S. nuclear capital costs can be seen by ...

As the Director of Strategy and Research for the World Nuclear Association candidly put it, “It is completely impossible to produce definitive estimates for new nuclear costs at this time....”5

By 2007, as Figure 1 shows below, nuclear was the costliest option among all main competitors, whether using MIT’s authoritative but now low 2003 cost assessment, the Keystone Center’s mid-2007 update (pink bar), or later and even higher industry estimates (pink arrow).6 For plants ordered in 2009, formal studies haven’t yet caught up with the latest data, but it appears that their As the Director of Strategy and Research for the World Nuclear Association candidly put it, “It is completely impossible to produce definitive estimates for new nuclear costs at this time....”5

By 2007, as Figure 1 shows below, nuclear was the costliest option among all main competitors, whether using MIT’s authoritative but now low 2003 cost assessment, the Keystone Center’s mid-2007 update (pink bar), or later and even higher industry estimates (pink arrow).6 For plants ordered in 2009, formal studies haven’t yet caught up with the latest data, but it appears that their billion of investment to supply electricity, while per-capita real income rose 79% (1975–2005).

Its new houses, for example, now use one-fourth the energy they used to. Yet California is further accelerating all its efficiency efforts, because there’s so much still to save. McKinsey has found that efficiency can profitably offset 85% of the normally projected growth in U.S. electricity consumption to 2030.12 Just using all U.S. electricity as productively as the top ten states now do (in terms of Gross State Product per kWh consumed, roughly adjusted for economic mix and climate) would save about 1,200 TWh/y—~62% of the output of U.S. coal-fired plants.13

Saving electricity costs far less than producing and delivering it, even from existing plants....
...


Conclusion

So why do otherwise well-informed people still consider nuclear power a key element of a sound climate strategy? Not because that belief can withstand analytic scrutiny. Rather, it seems, because of a superficially attractive story, an immensely powerful and effective lobby, a new generation who forgot or never knew why nuclear power failed previously (almost nothing has changed), sympathetic leaders of nearly all main governments simultaneously, deeply rooted habits and rules that favor giant power plants over distributed solutions and enlarged supply over efficient use, the market winners’ absence from many official databases (which often count only big plants owned by utilities), and lazy reporting by an unduly credulous press.

Isn’t it time we forgot about nuclear power? Informed capitalists have. Politicians and pundits should too. After more than half a century of devoted effort and a half-trillion dollars of public subsidies, nuclear power still can’t make its way in the market. If we accept that unequivocal verdict, we can at last get on with the best buys first: proven and ample ways to save more carbon per dollar, faster, more surely, more securely, and with wider consensus. As often before, the biggest key to a sound climate and security strategy is to take market economics seriously.


Download this 15 page open access article:
Nuclear Power: Climate Fix or Folly?
Report or White Paper, 2009
http://www.rmi.org/rmi/Library/E09-01_NuclearPowerClimateFixOrFolly
This semi-technical article, summarizing a detailed and documented technical paper (see “The Nuclear Illusion”
(2008)), compares the cost, climate protection potential, reliability, financial risk, market success, deployment speed,
and energy contribution of new nuclear power with those of its low- or no-carbon competitors.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Um, isn't Amory Lovins the genius who announced in 1980 that nuclear power was DEAD?!?
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 08:28 PM by NNadir
Why yes, in fact he is.

What's he doing now, whistling in the dark because all over the planet nobody gives a fuck about his dumb fantasies?

He's another cog in the anti-nuke stupidity self-referential circle jerk of disinformation.

Since Amory, like the rest of the world's dumb anti-nukes is completely unfamiliar with how to do math, he is blissfully unaware that nuclear power is, by far, the world's largest source of climate change gas industry.

Of course, the dangerous fossil fuel industry pays him a lot of money. His list of contributors, and what a list of filth producing companies it is, is right on his website:

Mr. Lovins’s other clients have included Accenture, Allstate, AMD, Anglo American, Anheuser-Busch, Bank of America, Baxter, Borg-Warner, BP, HP Bulmer, Carrier, Chevron, Ciba-Geigy, CLSA, ConocoPhillips, Corning, Dow, Equitable, GM, HP, Invensys, Lockheed Martin, Mitsubishi, Monsanto, Motorola, Norsk Hydro, Petrobras, Prudential, Rio Tinto, Royal Dutch/Shell, Shearson Lehman Amex, STMicroelectronics, Sun Oil, Suncor, Texas Instruments, UBS, Unilever, Westinghouse, Xerox, major developers, and over 100 energy utilities. His public-sector clients have included the OECD, the UN, and RFF; the Australian, Canadian, Dutch, German, and Italian governments; 13 states; Congress, and the U.S. Energy and Defense Departments.

http://www.rmi.org/rmi/Amory+B.+Lovins

In my opinion, 100% of the anti-nukes are paid off by dangerous fossil fuel companies.

Lovins must be lonely now though, that Jeff Skilling, his Aspen pal, is serving prison for fraud.

Before Jeff started his stint in the pen, during the process of raping retirees, investors, customers, and pretty much every financial institution in the United States, Jeff was, how predictable is this: A big supporter of Amory's ideas.

http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/01/01-06skilling-qa.html

Amory Lovins is my personal poster child for the notion that there is NOT ONE anti-nuke who has a shred of integrity or honesty. If you look at the rhetoric of anti-nukes - almost all of whom are blind consumers - you will quickly discover that their moral calculus is so fucked up, so materialistic, that they can't believe that anyone would so something for any purpose other than money.

But of course, no such assumption need be made about Lovins. He is openly paid by the dangerous fossil fuel industry, and is damned proud of it too.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Of course you believe that there is some reason besides reason that reasonable people
...see no reason for nuclear power.

The reason for that is that you have a distinct inability to actually reason.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There is no such thing as a REASONABLE person who sees no reason
for nuclear power.

I have been quite clear that I think there is NOT ONE anti-nuke anywhere who has an ounce of sense or who is remotely informed.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. "I have been quite clear that I think ..."
I think not.
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abqmufc Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. So is the cricle jerk including the impacts of mining, milling????
Please take a look at the area in the Colorado Plateau. Look at the impacts of the Mexican Hat Mill. It closed over 40 years ago, yet the piles of radioactive waste still lies less than 400 yards from the San Juan River, which drains into the Colorado River...the life line of the West for water. That is one of many mills whose legacy is left today on the Plateau. Impacted is over 10 National Parks and Monuments, The waters of the San Juan, Green and Colorado rivers. Look at the over 2000 open uranium tailings piles (source US EPA, Navajo EPA estimates over 4000) on the Navajo Nation. Look at the impact of the Jack Pile mine on the area around Grants, NM and the Laguna Pueblo.

How is that the impacts of the mining and milling and the blatant blind eye turned to environmental laws and environmental justice when it comes to mining and milling uranium for your "clean energy?"

Quite frankly the pro nuclear seem to forget to mention all of these facts.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Shhhhhh...
nuke supporters love them some power but hate the reality of mining and waste.

They never seem to have answers for the countless recorded cases of cancer in the Navajo nation. And they seem also just fine with burying the waste and let someone else, many generations from now, worry about it.

The best one I always hear is, "we can recycle the waste like they do in Europe!!" If it was so great, don't you think the nuke corps would be doing just that? I mean, talk about good PR. But alas, they don't.

So quiet you! Don't bring reality into the discussion! Don't make me come back there!

LOL Cheers. :)
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Do you think corporations operate out of goodwill?
"The best one I always hear is, "we can recycle the waste like they do in Europe!!" If it was so great, don't you think the nuke corps would be doing just that? I mean, talk about good PR. But alas, they don't."

They don't do that here because it's cheaper to store it and buy fresh uranium. If you expect corporations to take money out of their pockets to serve the common good, then you probably also believe this nonsense that the fossil fuel industry is going to just put itself out of business by way of magical "free market forces."
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. So you get hot over the recycling issue but...
you didn't even bother to refute the mining and waste issues.

Nuclear has the same issues as coal. no way to deal with the waste, no proper way to deal with the mining and they seem to have issue with regulations (the cost thing).

We can go back and forth all day, but the facts remain.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You have to go back an awfully long way to find something to talk about.
You can only point to mining that happened under ridiculously lax safety standards in the 50s/60s, without any scientific measures to control heavy metal contamination. You can't point to a modern uranium mine causing these problems, because they don't. Nor for that matter do other methods of fuel production, such as seawater reverse leaching.

And no, nuclear doesn't have the same issues as coal. A nuclear plant produces 30 tons a year of well-contained waste, more than 95% of which can be recycled and reused. A similarly sized coal plant produces over 4 million tons of emissions, straight into the air and the water. There's a bit of a difference there.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Would you mind providing a relative toxicity per gram evaluation of those wastes
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 12:51 PM by kristopher
We will wait.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. How about we compare number of people killed by them?
About 40,000 to 70,000 people a year are killed by air pollution in the US, the lion's share of which is from coal-fired power plants.

0 people have been killed by civilian nuclear power in the US.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. You just said that recycling was too expesive for the nuke corps...
so what is it? we recycle or we don't? Seems like you can't get your story straight regarding that issue.

In regards to modern health hazards, here you go... (many sub links on that one, take your pick)

Health Hazards for Uranium Mine and Mill Workers - Science Issues

http://www.wise-uranium.org/uhm.html

but just for grins, here are a few more...

Uranium Mining In Quebec – “a breath of optimism” or an environmental & health hazard?
http://acanadianfamily.com/2009/12/13/uranium-mining-in-quebec-a-breath-of-optimism-or-an-environmental-health-hazard-sept-iles-noranda/

Nuclear Caribou
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/4247

Part G : URANIUM AND THE ENVIRONMENT
http://www.sea-us.org.au/disc-guide/disc-guide-g.html

Why should I concern you with foreign sources?

Here's why...

Uranium Fuel Supply Adequate to Meet Present and Future Nuclear Energy Demand
http://www.nei.org/keyissues/reliableandaffordableenergy/policybriefs/uraniumfuelsupplyadequatepage3

Rebuilding the U.S. Uranium Supply Infrastructure
In 2007, uranium of U.S. origin accounted for 8 percent of the material purchased by the owners and operators of U.S. nuclear power plants. The remainder (47 million pounds) came from foreign sources.7


(that's 92% of our nuclear needs coming from outside the U.S.)
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Of course you leave out the explanation = Megatons to Megawatts program.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 03:43 PM by Statistical
"(that's 92% of our nuclear needs coming from outside the U.S.)"
That is the "truth" but not the whole truth.

We have had a program with the Russians since 2003 to permanently and safely dispose of their excess nuclear warheads.
We turn them into reactor fuel, the same nuclear weapons that were aimed at American cities in the Cold war are now powering American cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatons_to_Megawatts_Program

Since 2003 that has resulted in the permanent destruction of 15,000 warheads. 375 tons of Highly Enriched Uranium has been down mixed to about 7,500 tons of LEU which makes about 25,000 tons worth of fuel assemblies.

Part of our agreement with the Russians is MtoM fuel will be burned in same year it is transferred. The Russian don't really want to transfer enriched uranium to us so we can build bombs with it.

Given we have a contractual obligation until 2013 to buy that fuel the majority of our reactor fuel comes from that source.

Is it your opinion that loose nuclear weapons in former Soviet Union states is preferable to using "foreign" bombs as reactor fuel?

Unless extended that program will end in 2013 and we will need to begin mining (or reprocessing).
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Once again, you try to bury the issues in BS.
you don't answer the questions directly, but instead deflect.

Nice try, you lose.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The US/Russian program to conver warheads into reactor fuel is BS.
Demand for reactor fuel is finite. We have finite number of reactors and the amount of fuel they need is finite.

We are contractually obligated under Megatons to Megawatts program to buy surplus HEU (from Soviet nuclear weapons) for use in reactor fuel.

That program provides the lionshare of reactor fuel for our reactors. So how exactly is that BS?

We have no NEED for more domestic production until 2013 when the MtM program ends. If we produced 100,000 tons of LEU it would simply sit there.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Keep going...
Edited on Thu Apr-08-10 08:12 AM by Javaman
And just where do the Russians get their nuke material from? huh?

I gave you many links regarding the hazards of uranium mining yet you counter by saying that we used recycled russian nuke material?

Talk about disconnect. Yeah, no Russian ever mined uranium. :eyes:

So if it's not American miners getting poisoned, that's just fine?

LOL man, more of the nuke supports argument of "the end justifying the means".

You have yet to counter what I originally stated about waste, mining and regulations.

You chose to take the conversation off into a new direction, instead of dealing with the original issue.

And since you can't deal with those topics you go for the tried and true method of obscuring.

I know you are passionate about nuke power, but the reality is, until the industry deals with those issues I mentioned above, they will always have an uphill battle.

Just the facts.

reply rationally or irrationally, I won't respond, so I'm giving you a free last word. LOL use it wisely.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. No I simply questioned your statement that US gets 90%+ of uranium from foreign sources.
Edited on Thu Apr-08-10 09:21 AM by Statistical
Your words:
In 2007, uranium of U.S. origin accounted for 8 percent of the material purchased by the owners and operators of U.S. nuclear power plants. The remainder (47 million pounds) came from foreign sources.7

(that's 92% of our nuclear needs coming from outside the U.S.)


I am not sure why you felt the need to include this. While it is true it is misleading and has nothing to do with uranium mining dangers.

Likely you included it to insinuate the US doesn't have the reserves, mines, or ability to be energy independent when it comes to Uranium? Pretty common fake argument used by those who oppose nuclear energy.

The 90% foreign sources is simply a result of MtM program and not due to any inability to mine uranium domestically.
Had you not felt the need to including that misleading stat I wouldn't have even responded.


As far as the dangers of uranium mining:

Uranium mining is dangerous dirty work but then again so is iron mining, aluminum mining, coal mining, and even rare earth element mining. 90% of worlds supply of rare earth elements (used in electric motors and high power generators) come from Thorium seams which are radioactive). Uranium mining deaths are not statistically higher than any other mining (or other heavy industry) deaths.

The greatest danger from Uranium mining is build up of Radon (naturally occuring radioactive gas). Early mines were not well ventilated resulting in radon build up. There were lots of unecessary deaths. The govt provided compensation to uranium miners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_Exposure_Compensation_Act

Today EPA/NRC standards for Radon limits and monitoring in mines is much greater now. Far more people die from Radon in their homes (due to lack of monitoring/testing) than die from Radon in mines.

Uranium is NATURALLY RADIOACTIVE. It has been radiating the earth for billions of years and will keep on doing that for billions more regardless of if we mine it or not.

Radon gas in homes (produced from underground Uranium decay) kills 21,000 people a year in the US alone.
http://www.epa.gov/radon/pubs/citguide.html

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. What the hell are you talking about?
"so what is it? we recycle or we don't? Seems like you can't get your story straight regarding that issue."

You're trying to obfuscate something that's very simple. In the US, spent fuel isn't recycled because it's not required. Fresh uranium, and storing the old stuff, is too cheap. In Europe, they care a lot more about the spent fuel issue, so they make a point of reprocessing. It's not exactly a difficult idea to follow.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. US has a 100 year reserve of Uranium and a 2000 year reserve of Thorium
That is at current burnup and current number of reactors.
Obviously more reactors will deplete that faster and higher burnup will deplete that slower.

The nations doing reprocessing the most tend to be nations where their uranium reserves relative to their nuclear fleet are small.
Economics are not static all over the world.

Currently given low price of mining & enriching in the US along with the massive amount of surplus weapons we have been converting into fuel for last decade and a half it is simply far more expensive to reprocess fuel than make new fuel.

That will change over time. Lowest costs reverses are tapped first. As reserves deplete the cost rises. Eventually we will reach a point where cost of reprocessing (recycling) uranium is cheaper than mining new uranium.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And yet, you talk nothing about mining and waste. :)
cheers.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not a single member of the public has been killed by nuclear energy in the US.
Not one. Ever.

Mining of any material causes waste. Steel, aluminum, rare earth elements (used in electric motors/generators).

Uranium tailings are mostly rock with small amount of natural uranium. They are less radioactive than the uranium that was in the earth to begin with.

Uranium is natural. It has been radiating this planet for billions of years. Radon gas (danger all over the world) is produced from natural decay of uranium.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL priceless simply priceless...
The Navajo Uranium Mining Experience, 2003-1952
http://www.sric.org/uranium/navajorirf.html

A peril that dwelt among the Navajos
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/nov/19/nation/na-navajo19

Navajo Uranium Radiation Victims
http://sonic.net/~kerry/uranium.html

Lung cancer among Navajo uranium miners.
http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/content/81/4/449

Compensation of Navajo Uranium Miners
http://www.wise-uranium.org/ureca.html

U.S. agencies to clean up uranium on Navajo land
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0620uranium0620.html

Decommissioning Projects - USA
http://www.wise-uranium.org/udusa.html

The Forgotten Navajo: Uranium contamination
http://pavementpieces.com/the-forgotten-navajo-uranium-contamination/

FALLOUT: Cold War-era uranium mining leaves a poisoned legacy for the Navajo
http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/special_report/forgotten_peopl/

Shall I go on? we are done. You can argue all day long, but you won't win this one. And winning is far from the point, there are Native Americans dying every day because of Uranium tillings. That's the battle that needs to be won.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. Gee, an employee of Exxon, Shell, and Walmart saying "let the free market do it."
The only reason I'm surprised is that he's actually being so open about the right-wing free-marketeer impulses that underly his nonsense. The attempt to sell the idea that Walmart and the fossil fuel industry will magically clean up their act of their own free will, and that the coal industry will simply see the light and shut itself down, is even more laughable than this borderline AEI propaganda paper.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Lovins a right winger? ROFLMAO
If you get any further out in fruitloop land they are going to come for you with a net.

NUCLEAR POWER IS A RIGHT WING DARLING AND HAS BEEN SINCE DAY ONE.

What Lovins advocates is understanding basic economics and applying them to the goals of fixing our energy systems in order to save the planet. Considering that basic economics show that nuclear power is such a boondoggle, and considering how devoted you are to kneeling at the temple of Uranus, I can see how you would reject that idea.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Lovins is advocating what he's paid to advocate.
He's in the employ of dozens of corporations who have a vested interest in little regulation and the status quo of fossil fuel use, and magically, Lovins "scientifically" advocates leaving energy policy alone and letting the corporations do their thing, since they obviously have our best interest in mind. Do you think that the American Enterprise Institute is somehow unbiased when they put out studies talking about how superior it is to have no regulation on industry? Or that the tobacco companies' research disproving a link between smoking and cancer is wholly honest and truthful? This is buying "expert" testimony to support the continued activities of coal and oil companies, pure and simple.

Is industry-sponsored research and spin somehow okay when it's something you agree with?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Lovins doesn't advocate for those industries.
He designs energy efficiency innovations anywhere he can. Is your claim that we should not use energy efficiency measures everywhere we can?

The ONLY people that bitch about Lovins is the NUCLEAR POWER INDUSTRY. They hate him for good reason too; in a time when their lies dominated public discussion he revealed the fundamental wrongness of their technological approach to boiling water - "Using nuclear fission to boil water is like using a chain saw to cut butter."

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. "Using nuclear fission to boil water is like using a chain saw to cut butter."
Edited on Wed Apr-07-10 03:06 PM by Statistical
Depends on how much butter you need to cut. Chain saw for a single stick of butter is overkill. 1000 metric tons of butter likely means a butter knife is not up to the task.

We need a lot of emission free power, trillions of kwh of emission free power.
Nuclear reactors provide a massive amount of power from a single ton of fuel.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. At the highst monetary and envirnmental cost of all the options.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Not true, but if you prefer faith over facts, there's little I can do to convince you. nt
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Lovins advocates letting corporations do as they like, and greenwashes them for it.
Do you really believe that bolting a few solar panels on top of a Walmart changes their entire ecological impact? Or that BP, Shell, Exxon, and the dozen other fossil fuel companies that fund Lovins are doing it so that he can teach them how to stop burning fossil fuels?

It's greenwash. Plain and simple. They want someone to say from an "environmentalist" stance that the very best thing is to let the market do as it pleases, an approach which will give us another hundred years of coal and oil.
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