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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:27 AM
Original message
Reminder: proliferation is a critical problem with nuclear energy
STUDY FINDINGS
For a large expansion of nuclear power to succeed,four critical problems must be overcome:

<snip>

Proliferation.
The current international safeguards regime is inadequate to meet the security challenges of the expanded nuclear deployment contemplated in the global growth scenario. The reprocessing system now used in Europe, Japan, and Russia that involves separation and recycling of plutonium presents unwarranted proliferation risks. pg. ix

- The Future of Nuclear Power
AN INTERDISCIPLINARY MIT STUDY

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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. How many times are you going to spam this paste buffer into the forum?
What is it about their mindset that makes the most virulently anti-nuclear posters
so fond of copy & pasting their favourite talking point all over the forum?
:shrug:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Until I am assured that posts about proliferation aren't moved out of the E/E forum.
If I have to keep educating people about, then so be it.
It's not my policy to move posts about proliferation out of the E/E forum.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It happened a total of one time.
Your reaction to it is typical of your behavior on this forum. The particular post you made was political, not environmental or energy based.

So touchy.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It happened several times.
And the MIT report is very clear - proliferation is a critical problem with nuclear energy.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. So you support research into newer reprocessing methods right?
US research labs are working on a process where plutonium is never extracted.

Rather than extra uranium and plutonium and then make fuel the goal is to simply extra the long lived anticidies and nuclear products leaving behind the still intermixed plutonium and uranium.

So I am sure you are in favor of that right? Since your goal is improving proliferation security not simply ending nuclear power in the United States.

Of course is we abandon nuclear power we no longer have any influence in the world. In case you haven't notice nuclear power will continue without us. In last 30 years the US hasn't built a single new nuclear reactor but 97 have been built around the world. There are 55 currently under construction so the rate of construction is accelerating.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Reprocessing isn't needed - the MIT report makes that clear.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 08:48 AM by bananas
And John Deutsch, one of the authors of the MIT report, called Bush's GNEP reprocesing plans "a goofy idea".

edit to add: analysis by National Academy of Sciences and Federation of American Scientists came to the same conclusion.

edit to add: links to NAS, FAS, etc analysis in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x200775

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Reprocessing doesn't make sense in US due to low cost of uranium and high supply.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 09:11 AM by Statistical
When compared to another other fuel source uranium is dirt cheap on a equivalent energy basis. The low cost of natural uranium makes any reprocess looks expensive by comparison. That doesn't mean other countries won't be interested in it for energy security reasons.

Personally I have never considered economics of reprocessing to be the benefit. High temperature reprocessing has the benefit of being able to reduce amount of waste generated. It also gives us the ability to remove useful medical & industrial isotopes. All spent fuel will eventually need to be stored. Reprocessing to store that spent fuel more efficiency may make sense someday. Current methods (like PUREX) are not useful though but that doesn't mean that future methods (especially high temp reprocessing) won't be useufl.


Still honestly speaking there is no real NEED to reprocess fuel in the United States anytime in the next century. Likely we should abandon the idea of a long term repository in the immediate future and implement interim-length storage facilities (good for 50 to 100 years) and look at what is the "next step" in a century (reprocessing or repository).

Since portions of the world are using reprocessing do you support continued funding to make that reprocessing safer and more proliferation resistant?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. ...
    Reprocessing doesn't make sense in US due to low cost of uranium and high supply.
    When compared to another other fuel source uranium is dirt cheap on a equivalent energy basis. The low cost of natural uranium makes any reprocess looks expensive by comparison.


Agree.

    That doesn't mean other countries won't be interested in it for energy security reasons.


Reprocessing doesn't do much for energy security. It might double the energy you get from your supply, but as long as a country belongs to and abides by the Non-Proliferation Treaty they won't have a problem with supply.

Example: India didn't belong to the NPT, they reached peak uranium, reprocessing didn't help much, they shut down 5 reactors and ran the rest at half power:

http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/pages_us_en/blog/blog/blog.php?onepost=1&post_id=6

India: Living Beyond its Nuclear Means
posted by M. V. Ramana on Nov 1st, 2007 <15:05h>
under: India, US-India Nuclear Deal
last edited on Nov 2nd, 2007 <06:15h>

On Monday, 21 October, S. K. Jain, the head of the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited announced that uranium fuel shortages had led to five of India’s 17 nuclear power plants being shut down and the rest were now, on average, at half power.

This crisis is no surprise. India has to rely on limited, poor quality, domestic uranium to both fuel its nuclear reactors, except for two very old imported U.S. reactors for which it is occasionally able to import fuel, and to produce material for its nuclear weapons program, and there is not enough to go around. Over the last few years, fuel shortages have forced the capacity factors of Indian nuclear power plants to fall from an average of about 75% in 2003-04 to 56% in 2006-07. The Department of Atomic Energy has been trying to open up many new mines around the country, but has been meeting stiff local opposition on environmental, public health, and social grounds.

<snip>


So let's be clear about their priorities.
They would rather build bombs than provide electricity for their children to read at night.
They would rather build bombs than provide electricity for factories and offices and hospitals.
Bush's "nukes for mangoes" deal was designed to allow them to devote their indigenous supplies to weapons,
to escalate their arms race with China and Pakistan.

    Personally I have never considered economics of reprocessing to be the benefit. High temperature reprocessing has the benefit of being able to reduce amount of waste generated. It also gives us the ability to remove useful medical & industrial isotopes. All spent fuel will eventually need to be stored. Reprocessing to store that spent fuel more efficiency may make sense someday. Current methods (like PUREX) are not useful though but that doesn't mean that future methods (especially high temp reprocessing) won't be useufl.


And future reprocessing methods might turn out to be too difficult, expensive, and messy to be useful.

    Still honestly speaking there is no real NEED to reprocess fuel in the United States anytime in the next century. Likely we should abandon the idea of a long term repository in the immediate future and implement interim-length storage facilities (good for 50 to 100 years) and look at what is the "next step" in a century (reprocessing or repository).


It's going to take decades just to transport the waste, whether to reprocessing centers or to repositories. A repository is going to be necessary even if we reprocess. I agree that we shouldn't expect any near-term solutions, the waste will have to be stored onsite or in interim facilities for the next 50-100 years and possibly much longer. We're going to have to pass the problem on to future generations.

    Since portions of the world are using reprocessing do you support continued funding to make that reprocessing safer and more proliferation resistant?


I support funding for IAEA monitoring of reprocessing facilities.
I support funding for people like Valerie Plame.
I wouldn't place a high priority on reprocessing research.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Seems reasonable.
MIT is in favor of open-cycle (once through) for at least next 50 years.

We should use economic and political pressure to get countries to adopt open-cycle nuclear fuel cycle. The hardest will be the French. If they shut down their reprocessing center and stopped exporting countries the whole world would drop back into open-cycle for at least a couple decades.

If it were up to me I would recommend:
1) have Obama reaffirm commitment to no reprocessing of fuel ... open-cycle
2) grants for uranium exploration. Larger known supplies make reprocessing even more of a non-starter.
3) have DOE begin plants for "interim-length storage" they are mandated to do so under NWPA.
4) use diplomatic pressure with France to get them to accept a moratorium on reprocessing
5) continue research into future reprocessing technology. Aqueous reprocessing is a dead end. High temp reprocessing research at Las Alamos could be funded for minimal amounts of money

In 50-70 years we could be at a point where majority of nuclear waste is safely stored in dry casks in interim-length storage say 5-8 region centers. Also we may have developed technology (either fast breeder, traveling wave, or reprocessing) to make that spent fuel very valuable for future energy. If we haven't then likely we are ready for a single deep geological repository.




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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Disparaging moderator actions probably isn't a good idea either.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. "If I have to keep educating people about, then so be it."
Typical.

Another "G-d speaks through me" know-all who justifies his spam by
pretending that he's "educating" anyone who disagrees with it.

:eyes:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. LOL - I quote the MIT report, and you think I'm quoting G-d?
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Really? Whereabouts in "the MIT report" did you find the following?
> Until I am assured that posts about proliferation aren't moved out
> of the E/E forum.
>
> If I have to keep educating people about, then so be it.
> It's not my policy to move posts about proliferation out of the E/E forum.

Or are you just changing the subject again (i.e., back to the OP rather than
the sub-thread involving your pontificating about "educating" people)?
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Maybe because some here don't get it
did you ever think of that? :hi:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Why are you giving a pass to those denying the link between nuclear power and proliferation?
Edited on Mon Apr-26-10 11:57 AM by kristopher
They are DELIBERATELY misinforming people with false statements. Plenty of us (with what you must find a peculiar set of ethics) find that practice repugnant.

So the better question than why is bananas repeating one of 4 basic findings of the MIT report is, why the hell are you NOT offended by ethical behavior that ANY parent would take their child to task for?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-10 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I'm not (as you probably well know)
> So the better question than why is bananas repeating one of 4 basic findings
> of the MIT report is, why the hell are you NOT offended by ethical behavior
> that ANY parent would take their child to task for?

1) You are making unjustified assumptions about my capacity for offence.

2) If I wanted a different question answered, I would have asked it.

3) My current objection in this sub-thread is to the use of unnecessary
repetition = spamming.

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. Reminder: There is no world government
We don't have the option of telling Europe/China/Japan/India/etc/etc/etc not to build reactors.

Adding reactors in the US has little to no proliferation problems... let alone "critical" ones.
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