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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 05:37 PM
Original message
Solar On Fire In California
http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/05/06/solar-on-fire-in-california/

This is the way it was supposed to work: As solar panel prices fell, solar power would become more affordable, and people everywhere would cover their roofs with glittering panels. Solar still has a long way to go to reach the promised land of "grid parity" -- electricity prices equal to what you can get from the grid -- but so far this year solar is hot in the nation's biggest market, California.

Even though state subsidies in California are falling, there were applications for nearly as many megawatts of commercial, residential and government solar power in California in the first four months of 2010 than there were in all of 2009, according to research by Mark Bachman of Auriga USA. (Big, utility-sized projects were not included in this analysis.)

The big reason, according to Bachman: Cheap panel prices offered by Asian manufacturers like Suntech Power, Sharp, Trina Solar, Yingli Green Energy and Kyocera Solar. Applications to California's subsidy program, the California Solar Initiative, added up to 252 megawatts through April, compared with 87 megawatts over the same period last year and 265 megawatts for all of 2009. That's a rate of applications that Bachman calls "staggering."

Bachman looks at applications for installations because they predict both the volume and mix of future panel sales and installations. "The data shows what's in highest demand, and the application trend is totally going to the Japanese and Chinese modules," he says. About one in five applications get canceled before installation; it takes an average of 188 days between application and installation.

<more>
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. we got our solar rooftop last june - half price after rebates nt
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Coco2 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. and still the WH & Congress fail to give the rest of us the same break as Calif does.
Guess the Coal. Gas & Nuke lobby money bought themselves a pres and a large sector of Congress.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Just a reminder - it was Ronald Reagan and the GOP that killed America's infant solar industry
in its crib

in the '80's

In 2007, Congressional and Senate Democrats fought the GOP tooth and nail to reinstate the solar tax credits that Reagan took away from American homeowners - they passed a tax credit to pay up to 30% of the costs of homeowner installations

In 2009, Obama and Democrats removed the $2000 cap on solar tax credits and extended them to 2016.

nice try though
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Coco2 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. too little, too late
reagan and crew killed the industry growth in the 80's it is true. However almost all of the real advances in efficiency and lowered production costs have come in the past 3-4 years. This is not the industry of the 'back-to-earthers', it is the industry of high tech. It is successful in many parts of the world, with wide deployment. That a bankrupt state with a disastrous housing crisis can still roll up huge demand for solar with its limited help has to tell you something: The other states and or the Feds are NOT helping! Period. that the WH has not even attempted to keep its campaign promises vis a vis alternative energy has told the story...it is NOT pro-alternative energy. Gee, did you forget the GREAT proclamation a couple weeks before the BP explosion? Yeah, you know the one where our President proposed opening up off shore oil drilling and exploration in waters that remained closed even in the Cheney dark ages?

Do not try and whitewash, or defend the energy policies of President Obama, you will look like a press flak, and expose even further the fetid stench that emanates from the WH when it comes to energy policy.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm sorry, but Obama has done a lot for conservation and renewable energy - $80 billion worth
http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/energy-and-environment

Progress

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act included more than $80 billion in clean energy investments that will jump-start our economy and build the clean energy jobs of tomorrow:

$11 billion for a bigger, better, and smarter grid that will move renewable energy from the rural places it is produced to the cities where it is mostly used, as well as for 40 million smart meters to be deployed in American homes.

$5 billion for low-income home weatherization projects.

$4.5 billion to green federal buildings and cut our energy bill, saving taxpayers billions of dollars.

$6.3 billion for state and local renewable energy and energy efficiency efforts.

$600 million in green job training programs – $100 million to expand line worker training programs and $500 million for green workforce training.

$2 billion in competitive grants to develop the next generation of batteries to store energy.

Increasing, for the first time in more than a decade, the fuel economy standards for Model Year 2011 for cars and trucks so they will get better mileage, saving drivers money and spurring companies to develop more innovative products.

The President issued a memorandum to the Department of Energy to implement more aggressive efficiency standards for common household appliances, like dishwashers and refrigerators. Through this step, over the next three decades, we’ll save twice the amount of energy produced by all the coal-fired power plants in America in any given year.

Supporting the first steps of a legally-binding treaty to reduce mercury emissions worldwide.

On Earth Day 2009, the President unveiled a program to develop the renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents. These regulations will enable, for the first time ever, the nation to tap into our ocean’s vast sustainable resources to generate clean energy in an environmentally sound and safe manner.

try again
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Coco2 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. ok, how about this....
~$300 Billion a year for the wars...complete with a NEW no bid contract(worth BILLIONS) with KBR while it is under investigation for MASSIVE fraud in previous contracts. A TRILLION dollars for Wall St, and an unlimited line of credit for the Fed Reserve. Yet a lousy $80 billion was allocated for dozens of so called 'Green' projects, more than half of them being merely partial participation or credits. No, your example only highlights the paltry efforts so far. Your turn to try again!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes - I have been pwned - OBAMA IS WORSE THAN BUSH!!1111
Edited on Mon May-10-10 06:04 PM by jpak
:rofl:
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Coco2 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. ridiculous childish response. I rest my case as presented.
n/t end of discussion. When infantilism enters into legitimate discourse...legitimate takes a hike.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. infantile anti-Obama nonsense is just plain stupid
yup!

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wouldn't it be up to your state to provide you the rebate.
In CA feds kick in 30%, CA kicks in another 20%.

If you want >30% rebate talk to your local legislature.
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Coco2 Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. My point is that it is a national issue...not a state one.
States cannot effectively(even if they had the tax dollars to try) deal with national policies and goals. Energy is a national concern, some even go so far as to say it is very important! No, Washington(the feds) control commerce, the Constitution says so, Energy and its distribution are national, therefor Washington is the responsible party, no less so than the national highway system or even national defense.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-10 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Got my panels up about two months ago
I've already saved over a ton of C02, according to the little meter. My bill is way down too. Whatever idiot said solar wasn't efficient obviously never had it.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. 3...2...1....
:evilgrin:
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. crickets from the anti-solar crowd. nt
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. If I saved a ton of C02 in roughly two months
How much C02 would America save annually if everybody had solar panels? Enough to put a major dent in our total carbon output, me thinks.

Another cool thing: I didn't have to pay a dime for my solar panels, at least not yet. Sonoma County has a program in which you can get solar panels installed and then pay them off with a slight increase in your property taxes for the next fifteen years. I will make back the increase in my property taxes with what I save in electricity many times over by the time I pay them all off.

Oh those damn govn'mt programs. They just don't wurk, yanno?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. This headline momentarily startled me...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Are you referring to the explosion of the Daggett plant?
http://www.basinandrangewatch.org/AV-explosion.html or something else.

According to the website maintained by the State of California, solar energy remains a trivial form of energy in the State: http://www.energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/ELECTRICITY_GEN_1997-2008.XLS

California produced (or imported) 724 GWh of energy from the solar wishful thinking scam in 2008, out of 307,141 GWh produced in the state, which like all places where "renewables will save us" rhetoric is treated with undeserved respect, is a dangerous natural gas hellhole.

The number of seconds in a year is still 31,557,600, just as it was years ago when we heard all sorts of soothsaying about the California solar miracle on this website while more and more and more and more gas plants were being (and are still being) built in California.

Thus the average continuous power for solar electricity in the State of California is a miserable 82 MW, this after years and years and years and years of wishful thinking bullshit.

Farts generated by the more than 36,000,000 Californians could produce this much energy if everyone connected their assholes to a tube that drained into the Morro Bay dangerous natural gas waste dumping gas plant.

Speaking of 36,000,000 Californians, 82 MW - if you can do math, and anti-nukes can't - means that each Californian gets about 2 watts of solar power on a continuous average.

By contrast, each Californian gets 973 Watts of average continuous power from dangerous natural gas.

Anyone who argues that solar is an alternative to dumping dangerous natural gas waste in Earth's atmosphere is wholly and totally full of shit and delusional.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. sickfuckery
yup!
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. So much for the Green Economy that is supposed to lift US
If we importing solar, so much for Green Jobs in the US
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. We can thank Ronald Reagan and the GOP for killing off the US solar industry
they went after the solar inustry tooth and nail.

they killed it

they killed those jobs

yup

we could have had a vibrant solar industry in this country with good high-paying PV manufacturing jobs.

but nope

we don't
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. But Obama promised to change all that - remember?
Well?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. He is - here in Maine schools and colleges are getting PV arrays, wind turbines and pellet boilers
thanks to that nasty old corporatist Obama

yup!
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Made in the US?
Doesn't answer the original concern - why are all the solar panels used in the CA solar "explosion" being made in China?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Because Chinese labor costs are a fraction of what they are in the US
and China has built 1+GW per year PV manufacturing plants

Should Obama go to war with China?
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. So there was never any hope of Green Jobs to begin with?
We just surrender?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Solar retailers & installers, inverter & meter manufacturers etc. are all Green American Jobs
and you can thank a republic for killing the US solar industry

yup!
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. So we get the service jobs, China gets the good manufacturing jobs
How long until the meters are built in China because it is cheaper?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. There is HUGE growth potential in these industries
we've just scratched the surface.
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Not if we keep buying from China
Or is that what you are talking about...
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You are trying to proclaim an industry winner
when less than a small fraction of one percent of the demand has started to present itself. In other words, your claims are short sighted and full of shit.
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Teka Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. How so?
Will this "demand" ever present itself?

And if China is dominating a small market now, what makes you think it wouldn't dominate a larger market?

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. they get manufacturing jobs that pay shit - that's why they have them
BTW over the last 10 years the US exported hundreds of MW of PV panels to the EU

and the US is a major manufacturer of polysilicon used to make PV cells

so yes - we have those jobs

and more to follow
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Really?
It isn't, say, thanks to some state program?

For instance, Yarmouth HS installed grid-ties PVs in 2007. Does the president have a time machine that we could be using for more effective missions?

I see 17 schools involved in Efficiency Maine's program... but why aren't you giving credit to Gov Baldacci?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Maine got $30 million in stimulus $ for renewables and $96 million for 600,000 smart meters
and yes, Baldacci, Maine Dems and Obama get all the credit

yup!
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Christopher Calder Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. Solar is hot only because it is a government welfare program.
The "renewable energy” craze/fad is about religious zeal and blind faith, not about science. Renewable energy schemes are currently politically correct, but they will never be mathematically, economically, or rationally correct. Large scale wind and solar projects represent a victory of poetic symbolism over honest substance. Solar and wind power are both heavily subsidized by Federal and state governments, and our Federal Government is bankrupt, as is the government of California. So we are printing up money we do not have to pay for inherently inefficient, non-cost effective energy schemes which can never work well enough to survive on their own merit in the energy marketplace. Does that make sense to you?

The church of renewable energy means well. The greatest tragic blunders of human history have been instigated by people with the best of intentions, but a lack of honest reasoning ability. When you believe in something with religious fervor and ignore all of the provable facts because your emotions are more powerful than your reasoning power, that is when disaster strikes.

Nations are living organisms that run on energy. The more energy nations have, the easier it is for them to become rich. When you raise the cost of energy sky high through inefficient and ineffective energy production schemes, you weaken the nation and make it difficult to maintain a high standard of living. All of the new, hip renewable energy schemes are so weak and inefficient that they demand endless government subsidies just to exist. We are not talking about seed money for basic research, which can often be rationally justified. We are talking about every day operational subsidies for wind, solar, and biofuels to compete in the energy marketplace. On their own, without constant government handouts, they would all quickly collapse and disappear under the weight of their own inefficiency. The marketplace weeds out bad ideas on its own automatically, but we won’t let the marketplace function properly because we have picked false winners based on dishonest environmental symbolism.

Wind and solar schemes have tremendously large negative ecological footprints and are not environmentally benign as renewable energy cultists insist. Wind and solar schemes are so inefficient at collecting highly diffuse natural energy sources that they take up millions of acres of land to get the job done, and badly. Capital construction costs are far higher per usable kilowatt hour for renewables than for old fashioned 2nd and 3rd generation light water nuclear reactors. Wind and solar systems require backup power sources to provide energy when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shinning, which inflates their true costs tremendously. Wind and solar schemes do much more harm to the environment than using nuclear power, geothermal power, and natural gas. The only efficient “renewable” energy source for large scale energy production is hydroelectric power, and environmentalists want us to tear down dams, not build new ones.

Countless politicians and environmentalist gurus have promoted biofuels as a substitute for using oil, but biofuel farming has caused fertilizer price hyperinflation, farm land price inflation, and basic food price hyperinflation all over the world, while actually increasing environmental damage and greenhouse gas release. Whenever you raise the cost of food you cause more people to die of malnutrition and related illness around the world. Currently, the global starvation rate is estimated to be about 20 million people a year, and biofuel enthusiasts are responsible for a significant number of those avoidable deaths. Have they ever apologized? No! Have any of the environmentalist and government promoters of the MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) fuel additive disaster ever apologized for all of the water pollution they caused by demanding we all burn MTBE in our cars? No! The environmental movement is full of irresponsible, irrational minds falsely posing as saviors of the planet.

We need positive environmentalism that takes the time to think things through and uses reason instead of religious fervor to make decisions. No developed, industrialized society can possibly survive on expensive, inherently unreliable, weak and fluctuating wind and solar power. Wind and solar power are so expensive they will collapse our economy if we try to use them for more than just symbolic environmental window dressing.

The human food supply has been tragically shrunk by the criminal stupidity of turning our food into fuel, and we humans face an inevitable massive kill-off in this century unless we protect our topsoil from needless biofuel farming. Biofuel advocates now want us to mine our precious topsoil by turning “crop waste” into corrosion promoting, water contaminated, low energy ethanol fuel. Removing unused portions of plants that are normally plowed under increases the need for nitrogen fertilizers, which release the most potent greenhouse gas of all, nitrous oxide. Residual post-harvest crop biomass must be returned to the soil to maintain topsoil integrity, otherwise the rate of topsoil erosion increases dramatically. If we mine our topsoil for energy we will end up committing slow agricultural suicide like the Mayan Empire.

There is a very real alternative to the renewable energy fiasco. By using abundant thorium as fuel we can have an endless supply of affordable, superior quality synthetic gasoline without destroying large amounts of land, without explosions and oil spills, and without producing significant amounts of toxic waste.

Please read my web page on the positive alternative to the renewable energy hoax.

"Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor" at: http://thorium.50webs.com

Christopher Calder - nonprofit food security advocate, registered Democrat


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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. what a stupid post
:rofl:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. +1
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. NNincompoop has a new nonsense spouting companion
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. I thought you didn't like NNadir.
:shrug:
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. sarcastic? he's good for some very cheap laughs
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Greyskye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
41. "Renewable energy is a false religion"

Yet you advocate hydro - including specifically the proposed Auburn Dam. Are you aware that there is a fault line underneath that spot? How do you propose paying for the ongoing needed maintenance on the failing hydroelectric infrastructure that you so rightly acknowledge as having helped build this country?

Water power is the only useful renewable energy source for large scale energy production because the water that naturally accumulates behind dams is full of concentrated kinetic energy. Hydroelectric power helped build the United States, and our large legacy hydroelectric dams continue to give us affordable, carbon free energy. The amazing Hoover Dam, which spans the Colorado River, has an average annual net electricity generation of 4.2 billion kilowatt hours, which is produced at a cost of just .0186 cents per kilowatt hour. Opportunities to build new hydroelectric projects, such as the Auburn Dam in California, should not be overlooked.


You promote a molten salt reactor. According to wiki, one of the drawbacks of that design is "High neutron fluxes and temperatures in a compact MSR core can change the shape of a graphite moderator element, causing it to require refurbishing in as little as four years of operation." Sounds like money needs to be poured into this to the same degree that you decry money being spent on renewable energy sources.

You do have one soul mate on this forum. Wonder when he'll show up?
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