New Jersey Fire Fighters Worry About Solar Panel Dangers.

[NNadir]

Solar PV electricity is a trivial form of energy in New Jersey, just like everywhere else on the planet.

However it is claimed that New Jersey - where I live - has the second most solar PV installations after California. I have personal knowledge of four or five solar installations around here, but like I say, they are next to useless.

But nevertheless the few that are here have raised saftey concerns:

As I had mentioned at this past Monday’s Twp. Chief’s meeting, I went to the presentation put on by the State of NJ last night at Amwell Valley Fire concerning solar panels and the danger they present to the Fire Service.

The presentation lasted for about 2 1/2 hours and was what I believe time well spent. It really opened my eyes to the potential danger and problems they will be for us for any dwelling fire we will encounter where they are present. I’m going to attempt to give everyone a quick snapshot of what was covered.

The thing to know with solar panels are that they cannot be shut down - they are ALWAYS ENERGIZED. And they are energized with up to 600 volts of DC current...

...The final question which was asked really put things in prospective - someone asked that since Califorina is number one when it comes to Solar Panel Syatem installations, “…what do their Firefighters do when a structure fire involves these systems?” Answer was “… they let it burn!”
Please, I’m not suggesting that we adopt this strategy. But the reality is - I really don’t have an answer and it seems as if the Fire Service industry, nor the Solar Panel Companies, don’t either.
Just - please be aware and please be careful if you roll up to a structure where a solar panel system is installed - bottom line, if can kill you.

http://www.ftfd40.org/?p=111">Solar Panel System Dangers.

Of course, all of the anti-nukes here live off grid on their solar PV systems, which is why their here every night to tell us how great the solar PV life is. Their houses never burn down, so solar PV is great and the fire guy in Florence township is well, a scare monger.

[NYC_SKP]

1. So, are we supposed to take the word of "Jack Leechan" on the numbers?

600 Volts DC? Really?

:shrug:

[NNadir]

2. Nah...

I'm just being cute. I mean, we all know that the only deaths from energy that have ever mattered anywhere on this planet are Chernobyl's deaths.

Every single person at Chernobyl is worth 200,000 or more Banquiao deaths, and any deaths connected with solar energy - should it ever produce even 1% of the world's electricity (which it won't) - will either be the fault of Chernobyl, my fault, or the fault of the owner of the solar PV system.

All that said, solar panels are integrated with power systems, and it is well known that inverters are charged whether the solar PV system is connected or not.

I had a nice link from the NREL about this issue, but am not going to bother digging it up.

It is well known that during the months that roofs are covered by snow, inverters can be net consumers of electricity.

They are pieces of electronic crap, those inverters, and don't last all that long before becoming electronic waste.

It's real hard to get rid of electronic waste in New Jersey, inverters included. Maybe we can ship the burned out ones to China.

But the point is not to produce energy in any case. Fifty years of cheering have not made solar PV energy a significant form of energy in New Jersey or anywhere else.

[jpak]

5. LOL!!!!

whatevah

rofl:

[FREEWILL56]

16. Do not blind yourself with hatred of solar that twists many facts to suit yourself.

I have been long aware of your hatred of solar as everyone else here has also. In the past I have even agreed with you on some points as there are those that also spew falsehoods about solar in a pro-solar light, but falsehoods are falsehoods be it for or against solar. You have talked about solar deaths, but there has not been one on record attributable to solar that I am aware of. Nor has any proper and inspected installation caused a fire that I am aware of, but there has been at least one fire I know of from somebody making their own solar panels improperly.

Not all solar installations are grid tied and not all of them are high voltage dc from the pvs. A grid tied inverter is not active in producing ac power in the absence of utility ac power per NEC requirements on anti-islanding so your fear mongering is stupid in my eyes. It is electricity non the less when it is active and one does need to take steps to address it and the NEC does cover these. In case you are wondering the NEC gets input from electrical engineers as well as firemen, but is not dictated to from anybody that I am aware of. The NEC makes mistakes too, but few of them. In any case, the safety parameters are spelled out and covers this electricity source that you deny does anything positive. I will reiterate that it will not power the world or is an answer to all of our woes at this point and in fact solar is purposely held back from exceeding more than a few percent of our grid energy sources and not because of safety or performance issues with solar, but because of the usual energy conglomerate policies.

As to your statement on inverters, "....it is well known that inverters are charged whether the solar PV system is connected or not.", how in the hell can a piece of electronics, any electronics, be charged with electricity as you claim when no electricity source is connected to it? What a magician you must be and that would be the answer to our energy needs if it were true.

As for snow on roofs, that has little to do with snow on pvs as that melts away quickly from pvs and reflections of sunlight off of snow can actually increase power production. Pvs that are shaded though do not produce electricity and that includes the lack of sun at night. I should also mention that the pc you type your little anti-solar editorials on will be electronic trash long before most inverters. Pc lifespans do not compare to inverter lifespans and all electronics can be viewed as problematic for proper disposal per the newer standards of today which are more in line with thinking of the environmental impacts, but no radiation will come from an inverter or any piece of solar equipment except the sun itself.

As far as China is concerned, there are many fly by night outfits from there that are producing dangerous junk as well as a few legit manufacturers so one should use caution there. Look for certifications like NRTL, UL, CSA, etc..

As for me I am not impressed with the track records on these utility conglomerates with their own very poor service, reliability, and safety records, but most tolerate it like we tolerate your inane misleading opinions.

[Historic NY]

3. Fact vs Fiction: Firefighting & solar panels

Fact vs Fiction: Firefighting & solar panels (The Secret List)
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 Hey....
Regularly, "stuff" floats around the Internet that is less than technically accurate. Surprise. But it happens.
Look, we aren't talking about the mayor who said this week, that since they haven't lost anyone in his town in a fire, he could drastically reduce services and staffing...which is what we call "soon to be inaccurate"
Nope, this time it is about solar panels and firefighting operations.

While we didn't originally send anything about this on The Secret List, we did have some information that was sent to us as a submission that we posted on the website-and the info was inaccurate. Many of your probably saw the e-mail "floating around" on the "solar panel" issue as well. Due to the amount of submissions that come into www.FireFighterCloseCalls.com , it is impossible to not have something slip through once in a while, albeit rarely. We have always taken technical accuracy extremely seriously since we started The Secret List and the FFCC website 11+ years ago and we do our best.

We are fortunate and appreciative to have alotta readers. One of them is a San Jose (CA) FF. A FF who teaches classes on FF Safety related to PV (photovoltaic) systems, who has a degree in Solar Technology, and is also a member of the California State Fire Marshals PV Task Force. While we heard from many in the manufacturing community about this issue, we were very glad to hear from Fire Engineer Matt Paiss of the San Jose FD who wanted to offer some "firefighter" clarity to this discussion. It is an area we all need to be aware of, but as is often the case; a few misconceptions can create miscommunication.

We will turn this over to Matt so he can provide his training and knowledge to address the issues one by one so you can develop your own FD SOP:
1. Panels are only energized in daylight. Overcast days too, but NEVER at night. Scene lights will NOT energize the panels.
2. If the panels, or the roof are on fire, you will not get shocked by spraying water on them. Put the fire out.
3. The voltages of panels are anywhere from 24-48 volts each and generate from 125 to 200 watts in optimal conditions.

These panels are "strung" together in series to increase the voltages to 120 vdc to 400 vdc. While 600 vdc is possible, it is pushing the UL ratings of the enclosures, etc.. The current of these strings is usually from 5-9 amps. And that is only when there is a load (or put more simply, the inverter is sending the power back into the grid). If the inverter is off, there is no current only voltage, i.e. open circuit.

4. The inverters that change the power from DC to AC, are powered by AC. If you shut off the main service breakers, the inverter is OFF and there is NO AC power being sent into the structure. There are capacitors in the inverters that can hold a charge for about 5 min, but in the daytime the panels are producing power anyway. When the sun goes down....everything is de-energized.

FIREFIGHTER WARNING:
There is ALWAYS energized DC power in the conduit from the panels to the inverter IN THE DAYTIME. So, secure all utilities (per SOP's) and stay away from the panels and the conduit in the daytime. That is the danger.

5. Do not break a panel with your axe or related forcible entry tools. Each panel in the string could be carrying the FULL VOLTAGE of that string (120-400 VDC), not just one panel, so if you put a tool through it, you will very likely be getting the rest of the shift off....so don't do it....there is no need to do it, vent somewhere else, and kill the utilities at the main panel based upon your SOP's.

6. There are often junction boxes on the roofs (residential systems). If they do have fuses (not all do), and you pull a fuse while under load, you will very likely cause a fire. Not to mention the time it will take to open the box and do this. Bad idea-leave it alone.

7. In California, we will not let a house burn because it has PV Panels on the roof. I may not be able to put my hole in the best place, but I will put one in where I can when required.

Thanks Matt.

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/news

[Wilms]

6. Good stuff.

Electrical service is always a danger. I'm disappointed, though, that these panels don't have even the most rudimentary disconnect on each or at least the installation.

[jpak]

7. Ouch ouch ouch - the truth puts lies back in their hole

yup!

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Mostly accurate.

"4. The inverters that change the power from DC to AC, are powered by AC. If you shut off the main service breakers, the inverter is OFF and there is NO AC power being sent into the structure. There are capacitors in the inverters that can hold a charge for about 5 min, but in the daytime the panels are producing power anyway. When the sun goes down....everything is de-energized."

This is not always correct, when you are considering a PV system large enough to actually take the house off the grid, obviously. Different sized inverters operate in different ways. Smaller do-it-yourselfer systems, and large stand-alone systems alike, may require zero AC input to operate properly.

As long as the inverters are connected to any battery systems, you can assume they are energized as well. (but not the panels, which will be de-energized at night)

[Historic NY]

9. I spent 10yrs as a F.Comm'r so sometimes our own people spouted BS.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. No, it's a good list.

Just went with a bit of an absolute in that one item, which undoubtably applies to SOME PV systems, just, unfortunately not all of them.

The Old Man was an industrial electrician, so I picked up a thing or two. I'm going to start small with my house, move a system or two at a time off onto PV/batteries. Things like porch lights and stuff can just go. They aren't needed, and just produce light pollution anyway.

[Statistical]

12. Not just large PV but even grid tie with backup PV.

Essentially a hybrid. Remains connected to grid but also has a bank of batteries. When grid goes down the inverter isolates and acts like an off-grid setup.

So there are some systems in which killing the mains isn't sufficient. Still I think overall the "risk" from solar power is substantially overblown. Far more dangerous stuff inside a home during a fire. Take air compressor tank for example, aresol cans, other flammable material, loaded firearms, etc.

[Nihil]

13. As you say ...

> Still I think overall the "risk" from solar power is substantially overblown.
> Far more dangerous stuff inside a home during a fire.

I sometimes wonder how dangerous domestic ammunition stores are for firemen
but there are plenty of other hazards around before you get to consider PV.

:shrug:

[Statistical]

14. Believe it or not unloaded ammo is really no risk.

Ammo not supported by a chamber tends to simply split. Without something to contain and direct the force in one direction it is essentially harmless.

Ammo loaded in chamber of firearm that is heated to ignition will function exactly the same as if someone pulled a trigger.

Mythbusters (among other places) investigated this.

[Nihil]

15. OK - thanks for that!

> Ammo not supported by a chamber tends to simply split. Without something
> to contain and direct the force in one direction it is essentially harmless.

Learn & live :-)

[Merlot]

4. They said the same thing about hybrid/electric cars

[Ready4Change]

10. Solar installations I've viewed in MD...

Solar installations I've viewed in MD are required to have external cut-off switches. Fire Department can pull that and the panels are no longer connected to the house or the grid. Instantly. No calls needed to the power company. No dealing with a maze of wires hanging from the nearest telephone pole, or wondering where underground power wires (like in my neighborhood) run before connecting with some neighborhood transformer somewhere.

One switch, next to the power meter. Done.

[Statistical]

17. If there is only a single switch it is between inverter and grid (AC side) not panels & inverter

For complete safety you should have 2 cutoff switches:

Hopefully this text diagram helps:

----power lines to house ---- (AC CUT OFF) -- AC wiring -- inverter ==== DC wiring ==== (DC CUT OFF) ====== PV Panels

Most localities only require an AC cutoff switch that isolates the home (and inverter) from powergrid but doesn't isolate the panels from inverter. Not sure about MD but VA code for example requires a lockable cutoff switch located on the outside of residence within 10 feet of power mains but this only isolates the AC side of circuit.

[FREEWILL56]

18. I have no problem with anyone wishing to add a switch to the DC side of things.

My problem with the op is that he stated that the inverter will stay energized even when the solar is disconnected. See no AC and no DC and it still will shock you according to the op and that would make the inverter an energy source of which it is not. He's just rambling on in his quest to make solar evil.

[Ready4Change]

23. I don't know if it has an external DC cutoff.

I confess I don't know about that. I know there's an external cut off of the connection to the grid. Not sure how DC power is routed to the charge controller, inverter and intertie. It could well be without an external cutoff until it is changed to AC and connected to the grid through that switch.

Something for me to check out, next time I visit my friend.

[IDemo]

19. "600 volts of DC current..."

Fail.

[FREEWILL56]

20. 600v is not current.

If you don't know what you are talking about then you shouldn't jump into it. Furthermore, none of them will ever reach that point as that is the upper limit of NEC certification on all of the wiring and inverters. Most GT inverters fall between about 150vdc-500vdc and there are some that have batteries that will not exceed up to 48vdc.

If I were a teacher giving you a grade, it is you that would fail as you don't know much about it. Don't feel bad as few do know that much about it with some like the OP just spreading unfounded fear into those that don't know any better and the OP does not know any better either as he blind sided himself in his quest to bring solar down. I don't care if the OP likes it or wants it, but ultimately he is trying to dictate what you or I can get if we were to so chose.

[Kolesar]

21. It was an "editorial mistake"

volts is not current

[Nihil]

22. Psst ... I think that was precisely IDemo's point ...

> 600v is not current.

... hence the "fail" comment in his reply.
:shrug:

> If you don't know what you are talking about then you shouldn't jump into it.

Nah ... too tempting! :evilgrin:

[IDemo]

24. You're not real quick on the uptake, are you?

That was the entire reason for the wording of my post. The quotation marks mean that I'm pointing out the misuse of units by the OP.
The "fail" was assigned to the author of the OP, who should know better.

[FREEWILL56]

25. My apology.

I thought you were stating something totally different. Then I can believe we are in agreement pertaining to this thread?

[IDemo]

26. Accepted

And yes, we are in agreement.