Nissan: Leaf electric car orders above capacity

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"Nissan Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn says the automaker has received 13,000 orders in the U.S. and Japan for its new electric car, the Leaf, exceeding production capacity.

Ghosn said Thursday the company is seeking to add capacity to meet demand. The first models of the zero-emissions Leaf will be delivered to customers in December.

Ghosn said he's bullish about Nissan's future as demand grows in emerging markets like China, and consumers warm to electric cars.

Nissan's current production capacity for the Leaf means it would have made less then 12,000 of the cars by next March."

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9FLQBCO0.htm

[tinrobot]

1. Get ready for dealer gouging.

It wouldn't surprise me if dealers tacked a few grand on to the price for the first year or two.

[wtmusic]

2. Funny you mention.

"Nissan Leaf to be victim of heavy dealer price gouging?

"Nissan set the price of its upcoming Leaf at an almost unbelievable $25,280 after incentives. The announcement pretty much shocked the industry and Nissan has stuck to it. Questions poured in almost immediately asking how Nissan could possibly price the Leaf so low. Others wondered if Nissan would lose money on each Leaf sold and some were even eager to know how much the battery pack cost to produce.

Well, Nissan has answered those questions, but one still remains: How can dealers be prevented from price gouging customers to guarantee that the price of a Leaf won't skyrocket as soon as it hits the lot? To this, Nissan has no answer. The company told GM-Volt.com that it releases a manufacturer's suggested retail price but has no control over individual dealer pricing."

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/19/nissan-leaf-to-be-victim-of-dealer-pricing-gouging/

I've got a deposit down but I'm not going much above sticker. If the Prius is any indication, dealers were still gouging 10 years later.

[Duckhunter935]

3. Nice car but should use smart model

Ordered my car via internet fixed price. Put my 99 dollars down and paid balance when car arrived. Had the final price when I confirmed the order on the internet. Dealer could not mess with price.

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4. I bought a Saturn that way ten years ago

I believe it was their second year in business, and you knew exactly what you were paying.

Is Smart still selling that way? It seems like when a model takes off, they throw away that paradigm.

[Donnachaidh]

5. get ready for electric companies demanding BIG rate hikes because of

the electric cars being put on the grid.

Both dealers and electric companies are probably counting the extra charges the can hit consumers with.

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6. Unlike gasoline, at least electricity prices are regulated

I'm sure they will demand higher prices, but unless they can justify them (added capacity) they won't get them.

[Statistical]

11. Well not exactly. Most wholesale power is moving to deregulated markets.

Still unlike gasoline there are a large number of diverse producers of electrical energy making any collusion in prices far more difficult.

Also you have the whole magnitude thing.
Average EV going 12 miles is going to use 2.5 to 3.0 MWh annually.
US power consumption is about 4000 million MWh.
So we get 10% of the cars using electrical power in next decade (unlikely) that would be about 25 million vehicles or 75 million MWh.
Less than 2% of current electrical generation.

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12. In CA with the 2001 electricity crisis fresh in mind, it's moving slowly

Just last month the phase-in of SB 695 began, which allows citizens to purchase power directly from electric service providers (ESPs) but there are limits on how much energy independent providers can provide in each market.

I think the idea is supposed to be analogous to long distance service.

What they didn't get right the first time around was the idea that electricity is far more of a necessity than long distance telephone service. If they get it right this time, it would make EV ownership only more attractive.

[Statistical]

18. CA still remains highly regulated.

The CA energy market is an utter mess. Many interchanges have very little excess capacity so open wholesale market is difficult to accomplish.

Still even if resident can't buy power directly from ESP the markets in most place on wholesale side are already deregulated.

Very simplified version of how it works.

My home for example is serviced by Dominion Power. They maintain the lines, the grid. At every 15 minute interval wholesale power providers place their rates on wholesale auction system. Lowest rates win and they supply power to the grid. Dominion acts as a middle man. Buying power from wholesale market passing that cost on to consumer and charging for delivery.

* To make it more confusing Dominion also has wholesale power generation facilities so some of the power dominion the utility buys comes from dominion the wholesale provider.

The larger point is that for any grid there are dozens (sometimes hundreds) of power providers and those providers are using a variety of technologies all with fluctuating prices. It is virtually impossible for anyone to "corner" the electric market like you can with a single centralized commodity: oil.

[Kringle]

8. how do they know what the electricity is for? nt

[Donnachaidh]

24. they'll figure the spike in useage is for the cars.

Doesn't take a whiz to figure that out.

[Statistical]

25. What "spike"

Every 5% of vehicles on road being replaced with EV increases annual electrical demand by 1%.


Power companies would utterly love to see EV take off. Wholesale power prices constantly fluctuate based on difference between supply and demand. Overnight power is essentially worthless. There is way way way way way to much capacity and demand is a tiny fraction of capacity. There is so much capacity that sometimes (due to subsidies) the price of power drops to negative. That's right power producers PAY PEOPLE to take overnight power when demand is lowest.

EV with smart chargers that charge vehicle between midnight & 6am would be a massive boom for power companies. How do you make people charge between midnight & 6am? Simple. Offer them a lower rate between those hours.

[tinrobot]

26. If the price of power goes up, you always can install solar

Solar is already price competitive with the grid, panels are down to about $1/watt at some places.

[izzybeans]

7. I'll take one, minus the slogan on the side.

Why ruin a perfectly good car with a tacky graphic like that? Though the Hummers that say "Small Penis" on the side are perfectly fine by me.

[madokie]

10. Use a heat gun and remove that

if it bugs you. I've done it it works, well not on a leaf mind you but on a vw scirocco

[madokie]

9. Hell warm to an electric powered car

I'm hot for one

[Javaman]

13. Nice car but way to rich for my wallet. $28,000 to $35,000 (that's with the tax credit)

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1033846_2011-nissan-leaf-price

A well equipped C-class vehilce runs in the $28,000 to $35,000 range, without the $7500 tax credit the car will be expected to enjoy. If they are factoring that in, consider $35,500 to $42,500.

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14. Old info.

$25,280 after fed rebate.

If you happen to live in CA you get an additional $5000 rebate, plus 50% off the $2,500 (estimated) charger.

Total before tax/license: $21,530.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index?dcp=ppn.39666654.&dcc=0.216878497#/leaf-electric-car/index

[Javaman]

15. Still too rich for me. I don't care about the before taxes and license amount.

it's the after that I want to know.

It still will be in the 23-24k ball park.

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16. It's not for everyone

Nissan will be losing money for awhile, but at this price point they should be able to grab market share from the Prius and be profitable within three years.

[Javaman]

17. perhaps.

but the argument of "it's not for everyone" kinda falls flat with me.

If we only make alt fuel cars that only the well off can afford, then once again a huge portion of this nation is passed over.

I know the costs associated with making alt cars, but until one is made that is affordable for the average person, alt cars won't take off.

That was the thing about henry ford, like him or not (I'm not a big fan of his for other reasons), he did create a car that his workers could afford. he did that by not just cutting its cost to make, but by also raising his workers salaries.

the issue with all alternative cars and energy solutions is; they are all still beyond the reach of average people due to cost.

The double edged sword of trying to convert an auto fleet to something better during a bad recession is a challenge.

And frankly, until the recession abates (if ever), the quest for converting America's driving habits will be a very tough nut to crack.

In times like this, people will drive what they have until it dies and even then do everything they can to limp it along.

But I digress.

[wtmusic]

20. That's me.

In my family we're driving a 1995 Windstar, 100,000 mi, second transmission; and a 2002 Taurus, also pushing 100,000 mi.

My conversion electric car is getting new batteries next month and is used for everything local.

http://www.aspire-ev.com

It cost $15K and is perfect for errands and my wife's short commute (she recharges at work). Though it's very low-tech with only 40 miles of range, it made me a believer.

I have a deposit down on a Leaf, and if the markup isn't ridiculous that will replace one of the gas guzzlers in December.

[Statistical]

21. How is $25K not affordable for average American?

$25K financed over 72 months with 20% down is about $330 a month.

Even better fuel savings at 1000 miles per month are about $100 - $150 per month making the effective payment much lower.

While Leaf might not be affordable FOR ALL Americans it is a stretch to say it isn't affordable by MOST Americans.

[Javaman]

22. must be nice to be you.

The only chance I had to afford a new car was when the cash for clunkers came out in june of last year, then in july, they changed the standards. My car which was once part of the list was no longer because it went from an average of 18 MPG according to the rebate in june to 19 MPG in july, so I was shit out of luck.

contrary to your "everyone should be able to afford one" mentality, everyone can't afford one. But then again, perhaps you don't get out much and realize there is a recession going on. Must be nice.

I only took you off ignore to respond. You are now ignored once again.

[Statistical]

23. Not for you since you ignore people without reading BUT others might be interested

contrary to your "everyone should be able to afford one" mentality
Nice Strawman. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread made such a claim.

I never said EVERYONE can afford one.
I simply said the AVERAGE American can afford one.
You said the AVERAGE American can't afford it. I pointed out they can.

Your words:
"the issue with all alternative cars and energy solutions is; they are all still beyond the reach of average people due to cost."

Average American can afford this.
It is right in line with average selling price of new vehicles in the US.


Adjusted for inflation the average selling price of new vehicle has been between $20K & $25K for some time now.

Hell if the price was $15K there would still be people who couldn't afford it. Just because <100% of the population can afford something doesn't mean it is useless.

[Statistical]

19. One thing to consider is lifecycle cost.

When you factor lifetime energy costs the Leaf is much cheaper.

Say you have a choice between 2 vehicles:
Nissan Leaf: $25K out the door price
Ford Fiesta: $15K out the door price (33 mpg)

The leaf is "$10K more expensive" (although you are getting a new vehicle.

Now lets say that electricity averages $0.10 per kWh over next decade and gasoline averages $4.50.

You drive 120,000 miles per decade at which point you will look for new vehicle.

Energy cost for Leaf 0.25Kwh per mile * 120,000 = 30,000 kWh (30 MWh) * $0.10 = $3000 energy cost.
Energy cost for conventional vehicle 120,000 miles / 33mpg = 4,000 gallons * $4.50 = $16,400 energy cost.

Capital + Energy
Nissan Leaf: $28K
Used 30mpg conventional: $31K

The reality is more complex because you need to compare insurance, maintenance, interest, residual/ressale value, also discount future costs by time to get PV, etc. Still it does illustrate how despite a higher sticker price EV can have lower lifecycle cost.