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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 04:08 PM
Original message
DOE explains why the nuclear industry collapsed in 1974
"Orders for new units fell off sharply after 1974 .. the chief reason ... was economic." ...
"In reality, nuclear power plants have always been costly to build and, for several reasons, became radically more costly between the mid-1960s and the mid-1970s."

Cancellations skyrocketed at the same time.
Charts of reactor orders, cancellations, and shutdowns by year.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/eh/eh.html

United States Energy History

<snip>

The success of the demonstration plants and the growing awareness of U.S. dependency on imported crude oil led to a wave of enthusiasm for nuclear electric power that sent orders for reactor units soaring between 1966 and 1974 (Figure 28). The number of operable units increased in turn, as ordered units were constructed, tested, licensed for full power operation, and connected to the electricity grid (Figure 29). However, the curve of operable units lagged behind the curve of ordered units somewhat because of the long construction times required for the large, complex plants. The total number of U.S. operable reactor units peaked in 1990 at 112.

Orders for new units fell off sharply after 1974. Of the total of 259 units ordered to date, none was ordered after 1978. Although safety concerns, especially after the accident at Three Mile Island in 1979, reinforced a growing wariness of nuclear power, the chief reason for its declining momentum in the United States was economic. The promise of nuclear electric power had been that it would, in the now-famous phrase, make energy "too cheap to meter." In reality, nuclear power plants have always been costly to build and, for several reasons, became radically more costly between the mid-1960s and the mid-1970s. Utilities began building large plants before much experience had been gained with small ones. Expected economies of scale did not materialize. Many units were forced to undertake costly design changes and equipment retrofits, partially as a result of the Three Mile Island accident. Meanwhile, nuclear power plants have also had to compete with conventional coal- or natural gas-fired plants with declining operating costs.

These trends disillusioned many utilities and investors. Interest in further orders subsided and many ordered units were canceled before they were built. By the end of 2000, 124 units had been canceled, 48 percent of all ordered units (Figure 30).

The average capacity factor of U.S. nuclear units--the ratio of the electricity they actually produced in a given year to the electricity they could have produced if run at continuous full power--has improved steadily over the years, and reached 88 percent in 2000. However, as operable nuclear power plants have aged, some have become uneconomic to operate or have otherwise reached the end of their useful lives. By the end of 2000, 28 once-operable units had been shut down permanently. The joint effect of shutdowns and lack of new units coming on line is that the number of U.S. operable units has fallen off since 1990 to 104. In its Annual Energy Outlook 2001, EIA projects that 27 percent of the nuclear generating capacity that existed at the end of 1999 will be retired by 2020. No new plants are expected to be built during the period.





<snip>


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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks good info to have!
in the call for NO nukes of any kind...K&R
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. International comparison
I'd be curious to see the costs and production numbers for international nuclear energy production. Countries still pursue nuclear energy and many including France have very large nuclear energy production capacities. I'm curious if the economics are as dismal there as they have been her.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Certain things are relative

We can burn a lot of coal. France can't.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. About the same
Edited on Fri Sep-03-10 05:27 PM by bananas
They both leveled off around 1990.

Number of global reactors from http://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/1602-The-global-nuclear-decline


Compare to US reactors from the OP:


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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. those countries are primarily command and control economies
Nuclear works best where no one has to make a profit, and the
taxpayers pick up the overruns.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Clean energy isn't currently competitive with dirty energy.
If we're expecting the markets to save us, right now there's very little chance that they will.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That isn't true.
Wind and solar both are well placed to displace fossil fuels under current pricing trends.

Nuclear power is the lone technology that has steeply rising cost that render it absolutely unable to compete with fossil fueled energy sources or renewables OR energy efficiency.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Got a date when this will happen?
Even a range would be fine. :hi:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. End coal subsidies and the date is tomorrow.
Coal is only cheap because it's heavily subsidized at every stage, much more so than wind.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. With all the subsidies coal and oil receive each year
Why in heck aren't they delivering on the promise of being "too cheap to meter?"

While I've got serious disagreement with the OP and his "source" (notice it's in quotes) it is true that the nuclear plant construction industry is shooting themselves in the foot with their greed. The cost projections for building new plants is ridiculous.

We should curtail all new nuclear plant construction unless they are modular and their components are mass produced -- in American factories! That'll bring the costs down. Or let the Navy take over the Nuclear power plants here in the US.

The cost overruns are primarily due to ignorance and greed on the part of the construction contractors. I say to hell with them! The Navy has a well trained staff that knows how to build nuclear power plants and they've never had a problem. Let's just let the Navy train some more nuclear plant construction people and let the Navy build all the nuclear plants from here on out.

Greedy construction companies, we're not buying your crap and you're not going to hide in the shadows and steal from the American tax payers this time! To quote Donald Trump, "You're Fired!"
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. There are a lot of areas where the EIA can be criticized, but nuclear isn't one of them...
Edited on Sun Oct-24-10 10:22 PM by kristopher
At least, being *overly critical of nuclear* isn't something I've ever heard the EIA accused of.

The greed you mention is reflected in the practice by vendors of using low estimates designed to lock in no risk contracts, not in the fact that they were forced to eventually reveal the actual costs.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the EIA as a source if you don't mind.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. The article you cited came to simplistic conclusions
Nuclear power went to its grave in the 1970s due to several factors, not just economic. The cost of new nuclear power plants is a fair question and the nuke construction industry appears to be shooting itself in the face (who needs Cheney) by their outrageous cost projections. But in the 1970s, cost was not the main factor being debated. Yet your article seems to focus on the cost issue alone, ignoring all others and that is what my comment was objecting to.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The cost issue is what killed it.
And the "outrageous cost projections" of nuclear vendors are not problematic because they are unrealistically high, they are problematic because they are fraudulently low.

The "article" posted by bananas (not me) is from the EIA, a government office with a strong bias IN FAVOR of the nuclear industry.

But hey, why let the facts get in the way of your dedication to truthiness.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I have a hard time telling the two of you apart sometimes. Sorry about that.
As to the rest of your comment, I'll just let history show you wrong and not waste my time.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. History has already rendered a verdict - stop burying your head in the sand
Edited on Tue Oct-26-10 08:30 AM by kristopher
You say the vendors cost estimates are inflated when you are directly contradicted by the record. Note the legend and who made what predictions.



And you might benefit from actually reading the paper behind the graph:
http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2009/11/26/the-economics-of-nuclear-reactors-renaissance-or-relapse
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Opinion piece
You rely on that opinion piece a lot but the method for cost analysis in the report is flawed. Garbage in = garbage out.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on nuclear power, I'm afraid. Your document shows solar power as having both a negative social and a negative environmental impact. It puts the document in perspective for me because it shows coal as having a HUGE social benefit. That should tell everyone about the objectivity of that particular report.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. No, it isn't opinion, it is a straight accounting of the cost claims.
If you have evidence that the methods are flawed, why not share them in an actual discussion instead using the oldest dodge in the book.

According to nuclear power proponents, there are no studies critical of nuclear power that have any validity at all, an argument which very quickly resolves itself as nothing more than a transparent dodge.

In this case you made a direct verifiable statement about the costs of nuclear power which is explicitly contradicted by the historical evidence in the study; so of course, "the study is flawed".

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yes it is an opinion
The paper basically looks at the cost projections of future projects and places those projections "in the context of the history of the nuclear industry with a database of the costs of 100 reactors built in the U.S. between 1971 and 1996." The assumption that the past will repeat itself is exactly that, an assumption. People on both sides of the issue can argue all day about whether or not it is a good assumption, but in the end all you have is differing opinions.

That being said, it is my opinion that assuming future reactors will be built the same way reactors were built from 1971 to 1996 is a very bad assumption. For one, the licensing process has changed dramatically. I have yet to hear from anyone on the anti-nuke side as to why that is irrelevant to projecting costs.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Luckily we don't need to wait for it to play out this time.
Edited on Tue Oct-26-10 02:50 PM by kristopher
The graph clearly shows that the increased scrutiny by outside analysts has exposed the low-ball cost estimates of the vendors and their friends BEFORE massive public funds have been committed. All of the planned plants are facing the same truths - in 2003 the costs were $2500/kw and nuclear industry projections said they would be $1500/kw by 2010.

Instead we are looking at actual projects that are 3X-4X that even though they *still* depend on a series of highly optimistic "assumptions" such as construction times with zero allowance for the high incidence of construction delays (a huge cost escalator).

No, the historical data Cooper charts clearly disproves the assertion made above.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. And that is a good thing
Hopefully the combination of a new regulatory scheme and more scrutiny on project estimates will avoid the problems that plagued the 1971-1996 era. Personally I doubt that we will see many large nuclear reactors built in the US. The only hope for new nuclear in the US is the smaller designs intended to allow some degree of "factory built" economies of scale. The problem is, the NRC does not consider approving those designs a priority...
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. trial period is over as it was supposed to have helped by now - 2010
Remember, the cost was supposed to be $1500/kw but instead it is coming in at closer to $10,500/kw all in.

The nuclear industry would make even the most ruthless used car salesman blush.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. And Lovins predicted renewables would provide 30% of our energy by 2000
By the same logic, should I declare the renewables "trial period" over as well?

If environmentalists keep bickering over their own pet solutions the only energy source that will continue to meet predictions is coal...
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Thank your friend Reagan for the difference...
Nuclear proponents are not "environmentalists"; embracing the use of nuclear is a marker for values placing priority on energy security - it is an anti-environmental stance and the right cannot spin it otherwise since they must totally ignore the consequences of how money could be better spent in areas that result in more greater and more rapid carbon reductions without the problems of nuclear wastes, nuclear arms proliferation and safety.

You cannot ignore those aspects of nuclear power and claim you prioritize environmental values.

C A N N O T

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. So who gave you a pointy hat...
...and made you Pope of the environmentalist movement?

James Lovelock, Stewart Brand, Patrick Moore, Bishop Hugh Montefiore...

Sorry Kris, but there are people whose environmental cred way outshines yours that are pro-nuke.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. It isn't about "cred" it is about values.
Informed endorsement of nuclear power is to environmental values

as killing an abortion doctor is to pro-life values.

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. No Kristopher, it is about humility
It is about accepting the opinions of people that disagree with you because you realize that you might be wrong.

I suspect, however, that thought has never once crossed your mind...
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. It is an opinion, and not a very informed opinion for that matter
The author tells you how they calculate the cost estimates for nuclear power?

The author explains why coal power receives high marks while both solar PV and concentrating solar thermal receive very low marks?

The piece is a very long and not very informative pro-coal fiction with a whole lot of charts and graphs.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
70. Nah, you need to build 190,000 turbines a year...
...to be able to avert catastrophic climate change. This doesn't include the hundreds of square miles of CSP and PV you have to build out.

It's a daunting task. But I agree that fee and dividend would go a long ways toward allowing us to achieve it, it's unlikely.
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OutNow Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, too cheap to meter
I got a chuckle out of that. Too cheap to meter.

I lived down wind from TMI. We sent our kids up to relatives in Connecticut at the first news of the accident. The "official" news was the typical bullshit, no measurable discharge, no reason to worry, etc.

I am so thankful for the brave folks in the scientific community, like Drs. Helen Caldicott and Michio Kaku, who were able to provide real information about the severity of the accident.

I had a protest button years ago that said "Nuclear Power, No Thanks". Maybe it's time to wear it again.
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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-10 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. You gotta be kidding....
>I am so thankful for the brave folks in the scientific community, like Drs. Helen Caldicott

The scientific community doesn't consider Caldicott a scientist.

Her scientific ignorance is such that you can hoist her on her own petard.
I heard her recently on a radio program saying that if one took a single
kilogram of plutonium and dispersed it uniformly in the atmosphere, it
would kill all life on Earth.

As a result of atmospheric nuclear testing prior to the 1962 ban; there are
a few metric tons of plutonium in the atmosphere.

So the amount of plutonium actually in the atmosphere is a few thousand
times the amount that Caldicott claims would kill all life on the planet.

Don't say Caldicott and scientist in the same sentence.

Read what real scientists say - read the Rogovin Report - and you will see
that TMI was a very minor event in terms of public health Of course the
anti-nukes don't want to believe that - but it is the truth.

That's why the Courts dismissed the lawsuits over TMI:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/tmi.html

Dr. Greg
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. Yet another wonderful example of your thinking; thank you so much.
You wrote: "The scientific community doesn't consider Caldicott a scientist."

The implicit statement you make is that those who agree with your positions are within the "scientific community" and those disagreeing with you are not part of "the scientific community".

That damned fake Scotsman is everywhere, I'm telling you...



I would be very grateful if you could provide a succinct definition of what constitutes "the scientific community" in your view, as I'm afraid it isn't possible to determine without checking in with you just what disciplines and people are part of this extremely curtailed "scientific community" for whom you claim to be the exclusive agent.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Apparently the more-economic choices were coal and NG
:(
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. The most economic choices were efficiency and demand reduction
Edited on Sun Sep-12-10 03:02 AM by bananas
nuclear energy was way at the bottom of the list.
And it still is.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. That does not refute that coal and NG are preferred solutions.
Sorry but it doesn't.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Sure it does
Unless a person deliberately ignores the trends and forecasts of all academic and financial experts on the topic. Renewables are already competitive with fossil fuels and they are becoming more competitive every day. You are just eager to paint a picture where nuclear power must be mandated in spite of the way it would squander vast amounts of very scarce resources.

By all appearances you are far less interested in the most effective solution to climate change than you are in promoting the misconception that we must build nuclear power plants no matter what.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. "Renewables are already competitive with fossil fuels"
Which is why renewable investment is only .02% of global GDP. :rofl:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. kick. nt
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Chart of reactor orders per year - fell like a rock in 1974
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/2009/0813/the-bumpy-road-to-nuclear-energy



The bumpy road to nuclear energy
By Mark Clayton, Staff Writer for The Christian Science Monitor / August 13, 2009

In 1974, President Nixon announced Project Independence – a plan to build 1,000 nuclear stations. But of the 253 reactors eventually ordered by the US electric industry, 71 were canceled before construction began, according to a tally by the antinuclear group Beyond Nuclear.

Of the 182 construction permits granted by government commissions, 50 were abandoned in construction with billions in investment lost and 28 were closed before their 40-year licenses expired – including the Three Mile Island plant’s Unit 2.

<snip>


http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/2009/0813/nuclear-power-s-new-debate-cost

Nuclear power’s new debate: cost
Issues of safety and waste make way for a focus on funding.
By Mark Clayton, Staff Writer for The Christian Science Monitor / August 13, 2009

<snip>

ALTOGETHER, NUCLEAR-INDUSTRY BAILOUTS in the 1970s and ’80s cost taxpayers and ratepayers in excess of $300 billion in 2006 dollars, according to three independent studies cited in a new nuclear-cost study by the Union of Concerned Scientists.

New guarantees in coming years could also leave US taxpayers picking up the tab if nuclear utilities defaulted on their loans. In 2008, the Government Accountability Office said the average risk of default on Department of Energy guarantees was about 50 percent. The Congressional Budget Office projected that default rates would be very high – well above 50 percent.”

On that basis, the potential risk exposure to US taxpayers from federally guaranteed nuclear loans would be $360 billion to $1.6 trillion, depending on the number of power reactors built, the Union of Concerned Scientists’ study found.

“You want to talk about bailouts – the next generation of new nuclear power would be Fannie Mae in spades,” says Mark Cooper, senior fellow at Vermont Law School’s Institute for Energy and the Environment. Dr. Cooper is among several economic analysts who contend that – waste and safety issues aside – nuclear energy is too costly.

<snip>

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. So what if nuclear only buys 5% the amount of carbon reduction as efficiency? Who cares?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick. nt
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. This report gets basic facts wrong
In reality, nuclear power plants have always been costly to build...

It is interesting that the report does not include any statistics or examples that support this statement. The reason is simple: it is an outright lie. A few historical facts concerning the costs of constructing nuclear power plants reveal the following:


Commonwealth Edison, the utility serving the Chicago area, completed its Dresden nuclear plants in 1970-71 for $146/kW, its Quad Cities plants in 1973 for $164/kW, and its Zion plants in 1973-74 for $280/kW. But its LaSalle nuclear plants completed in 1982-84 cost $1,160/kW, and its Byron and Braidwood plants completed in 1985-87 cost $1880/kW — a 13-fold increase over the 17-year period. Northeast Utilities completed its Millstone 1,2, and 3 nuclear plants, respectively, for $153/kW in 1971, $487/kW in 1975, and $3,326/kW in 1986, a 22-fold increase in 15 years. Duke Power, widely considered to be one of the most efficient utilities in the nation in handling nuclear technology, finished construction on its Oconee plants in 1973-74 for $181/kW, on its McGuire plants in 1981-84 for $848/kW, and on its Catauba plants in 1985-87 for $1,703/kW, a nearly 10-fold increase in 14 years. Philadelphia Electric Company completed its two Peach Bottom plants in 1974 at an average cost of $382 million, but the second of its two Limerick plants, completed in 1988, cost $2.9 billion — 7.6 times as much. A long list of such price escalations could be quoted, and there are no exceptions.


http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter9.html

These are the real facts about constructing nuclear power plants, and to claim that nuclear power plants "have always been costly to build" is simply a lie. No, they were never cheaper than coal plants, but they used to be much more competitive that they are today. Certainly the increase in prices from the early 1970's to the mid 1980's is partially due to the high inflation the US experienced during that period, but a simple exercise in math will tell you that inflation alone cannot explain a 10-15 fold increase in construction costs. No, the reality is that nuclear power became more expensive over the course of a decade and a half as a result of a concentrated, deliberate plan of obstruction by anti-nuclear zealots.


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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Standard and unsupportable nuclear industry propaganda
"Come on baby, come on back home; I promise I won't beat you anymore. I'll do it better this time..."
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Unsupportable?
Let's see. The report that I cited lists the costs of constructing 13 different nuclear reactors to prove its point. The report in the OP lists none.

Now, which conclusions are unsupported?

:rofl:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. And the explanation for the negative learning curve also found in France's program?
18 out of how many in France and the US?

Sounds like cherry picked data to me. You want everyone to believe that the lessons learned from the early reactors were only positive from the point of view of construction times and cost and that all cost inflation was due to interference through the regulatory system by "activists" (how did you get that conservative sneer to come across the internet?) when in fact most of of the cost and construction problems were related to a negative learning curve that kept revealing ever more difficult to address safety issues.

I suppose you are right, though. We should have just built about 10,000 Chernobyl style reactors and just let it go at that. After all if safety is so unimportant, why even bother with any improvements that cost anything?


The following paper is not copyrighted and may be downloaded at the author's website http://www.vermontlaw.edu/Academics/Environmental_Law_Center/Institutes_and_Initiatives/Institute_for_Energy_and_the_Environment/News_and_Publications.htm


POLICY CHALLENGES OF NUCLEAR REACTOR CONSTRUCTION,
COST ESCALATION AND CROWDING OUT ALTERNATIVES

LESSONS FROM THE U.S. AND FRANCE FOR THE EFFORT TO REVIVE THE U.S.
INDUSTRY WITH LOAN GUARANTEES AND TAX SUBSIDIES

MARK COOPER

...

FINDINGS: COST ESCALATION
The report finds that the claim that standardization, learning, or large increases in the
number of reactors under construction will lower costs is not supported in the data.
 The increasing complexity of nuclear reactors and the site-specific nature of deployment
make standardization difficult, so cost reductions have not been achieved and are not likely
in the future. More recent, more complex technologies are more costly to construct.
 Building larger reactors to achieve economies of scale causes construction times to increase,
offsetting the cost savings of larger reactors.
Comparing Pressurized Water Reactors, which are the main technologies used in both
nations, we find that both the U.S. and French nuclear industries experienced severe cost
escalation (see Exhibit ES-1).
 Measured in 2008 dollars, U.S. and French overnight costs were similar in the early 1970s,
about $1,000 per kW. In the U.S. they escalated to the range of $3,000 to $4,000 by the mid-
1980s. The final reactors were generally in the $5,000 to $6,000 range.
 French costs increased to the range of $2,000-$3,000 in the mid-1980s and $3,000 to $5,000 in
the 1990s.



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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Cherry picking is theoretically possible
Edited on Fri Oct-22-10 01:13 AM by Nederland
It is also exceedingly easy to prove. The report cites 13 examples, then makes a very specific claim at the end: "A long list of such price escalations could be quoted, and there are no exceptions."

So if you think the report cherry picks its data, come up with a counter example. Like you said, the examples cover only a fraction of the total number of reactors, so how hard can it be?

As far as your claims of a "negative learning curve", the facts do not support that assertion. A basic review of the safety records of all US nuclear reactors shows that the increased regulatory requirements and last minute design changes that drove costs through the roof did not make plants built later on safer. In fact, there is some evidence that last minute design changes made in the name of safety in fact made the plants less safe. These issues are covered in Chapter 6 of the report I linked to.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. The study I cited above conclusively disproves your thesis.
Edited on Fri Oct-22-10 11:46 AM by kristopher
It simply isn't true that the initial round of reactors were cheap and that we could be building such reactors right now for the same costs; it's an absurd claim.

Improvements in safety were the primary reason for the disruption that design failures and mistakes resulted in because the consequences of failure are so significant in the nuclear industry.

If a flaw is found while building a coal plant for example, the safety consequences of how the repairs/modifications are made are far less front and center to the decision on how to deal with those flaws than it is in nuclear plants.

It is the same problem they face today - nuclear is an intensely complex system that demands absolute perfection by its nature.

The secret to Honda Motors reliability is tied directly to the goal they set for their vendors of a 0% failure rate in all components they purchase from the vendors. The auto industry standard is one failure out of ten thousand. By raising their standards in an attempt to decrease breakdowns, Honda increased the cost of producing their auto by about 20%.

The same principle is at work in nuclear plant cost escalation. And when it is tied to what are basically one-off systems as dangerous and complex as nuclear plants, the outcome was a forgone conclusion.

The REAL problem then as now is that the early prices and price forecasts were simply overoptimistic projections by governments and corporate entities that were acting with fewer ethical restraints than used-car salesmen.
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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. REALLY???
Improvements in safety were the primary reason for the disruption that design failures and mistakes resulted in because the consequences of failure are so significant in the nuclear industry.
=======================================================

Could you itemize what improvements and changes there were and
why they were so expensive.

"It is the same problem they face today - nuclear is an intensely
complex system that demands absolute perfection by its nature."

The above statement shows a TOTAL IGNORANCE of the design
philosophy of a nuclear power plant. Nuclear power plants
are designed with the philosophy of "defense in depth".
Nuclear power plants are designed to be fault-tolerant.

It's similar to the approach taken by the airliner industry,
except to an even greater degree with a nuclear power plant.

The engineers that designed the plant know that "absolute
perfection" is UNATTAINABLE. Therefore, nuclear power plants
are designed to be fault tolerant.

It is a popular MYTH that a nuclear power plant is a "Swiss
watch" and everything has to work perfectly or there is a
disaster.

Even though jet engines are extremely reliable, modern jet
airliners are designed so that they can still fly with failed
engines. If your airliner has 2 or 3 engines, it will fly with
just 1 engine. If your airliner has 4 engines, it will fly with
any 2 engines. See how that works? The engineers don't assume
that the engines are perfect. They provide for a positive result
when an airliner experiences engine failure.

Likewise with a nuclear plant. The nuclear plant, however, has
an even greater degree of redundancy and backup systems than the
airliner. The nuclear power plant is designed such that if parts
or entire systems fail, the power plant can still cope with the
degraded condition. Absolute perfection is NOT required.

Why do people that have ZERO experience or knowledge of physics
and engineering assume that engineers must be DUMB? They assume
that the engineers designed some complex system that is so FRAGILE
that the slightest imperfection causes a massive failure?

Do people really "think" ( term used loosely ) like that. Gads,
those people must be really brave to get on airliners. They must
"think" ( used again for lack of a more descriptive word ) that
they are right on the brink of disaster every minute they are
in the air.

Dr. Greg

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. When you don't have the truth on your side, create a strawman, eh?
Edited on Sat Oct-23-10 05:50 PM by kristopher
This is basically a rehash where you wrote

You wrote, "...then we should stop building anything complex, because the complexity is always going to sink us.
Fortunately, the above statement is HOGWASH. Nuclear reactors are complex. However, we know and understand those complexities, and we design reactors that WORK."


And I responded:
This is an example of a reactor that worked as designed. The amount of planning that didn't prevent this event is nearly unimaginable. So are the potential worst-case consequences....


The rest is here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=262570&mesg_id=262801



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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Evidently you don't understand "fault tolerant"
This is an example of a reactor that worked as designed. The amount of planning that didn't prevent this event is nearly unimaginable. So are the potential worst-case consequences....
-----------------------------------------

Evidently you don't understand the term "fault tolerant"

Being "fault tolerant" doesn't mean that something is not
going to go wrong. It means the consequences have been mitigated.

For example, a Boeing 777 airliner which has 2 jet engines is
fault tolerant with respect to loss of an engine. The fact that
the Boeing 777 is fault tolerant of engine failure does NOT
mean that the Boeing 777 will never have an engine failure.

It means that if a Boeing 777 does have a failure of one engine,
it will continue to fly. The Boeing 777 doesn't immediately
crash when it has an engine failure.

Likewise, the nuclear power plant is fault tolerant. That doesn't
mean that something won't go wrong. It means that when something
goes wrong, it doesn't automatically mean a disaster.

In the case of Davis-Besse, something went wrong. However, when
things went wrong, did we immediately have a disaster? NO!!!

The Davis-Besse has been so overblown by the anti-nukes.

That's what happens when the nuclear power plants are so
error free, that the anti-nukes have to take what they can
get.

Dr. Greg

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. There were no "improvements in safety"
Improvements in safety were the primary reason for the disruption that design failures and mistakes resulted in because the consequences of failure are so significant in the nuclear industry.

As the report I linked to clearly shows, the changes demanded by regulators DID NOT result in safer plants. In fact, they frequently resulted in plants that were LESS safe.
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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. CONCUR!!!
As the report I linked to clearly shows, the changes demanded by regulators DID NOT result in safer plants. In fact, they frequently resulted in plants that were LESS safe.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I concur. One of my graduate school classmates was a
startup engineer for General Electric, assigned to the
Commonwealth Edison, now Exelon, LaSalle County Station.

He told me that LaSalle was designed when the requirements
were such that for a Design Basis Earthquake, if the movement
of a section of piping was 1/32 of an inch, then that point
had to have a "snubber", a hydraulic damper. During the
construction, the NRC relaxed the requirement to 1/8 of an
inch. Therefore, LaSalle was designed to a higher standard.

LaSalle had snubbers where the movement was greater than
1/32" but less than 1/8". Therefore, LaSalle had snubbers
were they weren't required. However, as far as the NRC
is concerned, the fact that it was not required by the
NRC made those snubbers, "non-functional" components.

The NRC made them remove the snubber and put in a solid support.

Why the NRC just couldn't allow the plant to operate when
it met a standard that was higher than what was required.
But, no - they had them downgrade the over-built system
to meet the newer, lesser, requirement.

Dr. Greg



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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. EXACTLY!!!
Certainly the increase in prices from the early 1970's to the mid 1980's is partially due to the high inflation the US experienced during that period, but a simple exercise in math will tell you that inflation alone cannot explain a 10-15 fold increase in construction costs. No, the reality is that nuclear power became more expensive over the course of a decade and a half as a result of a concentrated, deliberate plan of obstruction by anti-nuclear zealots.
============================================================

I remember a seminar during my graduate student days at MIT on the
problems of the nuclear industry. The seminar speaker showed that
the troubles in the nuclear industry started just as the Vietnam
War was winding down. When it was clear the war was winding down,
the Vietnam-era protesters looked around for something else to
protest, and nuclear power was their victim of choice.

One of the biggest problems, as I elucidated in my history of
Shoreham, is the regulatory uncertainty. Uncertainty is something
that businesses have a tough time with because they don't like to
"bet the company" on a gamble.

The problem isn't the technology or construction problems. The
problem is political. If the "wrong" politician, like Governor
Cuomo in the case of Shoreham, gets elected, then the project can
effectively be canceled. From the Dept. of Energy:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/analysis/nuclearpower.html

"There are several reasons why there are no firm plans to build new nuclear power reactors. First among these in the short term is that many if not most regions of the Nation presently have surplus baseload generating capacity. There are exceptions to this conclusion. California imports much of its base load electricity needs but also effectively discourages new production from the typical base load power sources, coal and nuclear. This short term base load surplus must be worked off before any new nuclear construction can be seriously considered.

A longer-term reason why no nuclear power has been built is that the capital costs of building a new nuclear power plant have historically been high. There are also considerable financial costs and risks related to the long construction periods in the industry. The last completed nuclear reactor, Watts Bar-1, took 24 years to complete. There has been a history of regulatory uncertainty. The extreme case is the Shoreham plant on Long Island that was essentially completed before it was decided that it would not be allowed to operate. Policy issues such as spent fuel disposal methods, liability insurance questions, and overall safety concerns on the part of the public have also adversely affected nuclear construction."

One of the biggest problems is just plain IGNORANCE. We've seen
that played out so many times on this board. So many have been
gullible enough to swallow "hook, line, and sinker", the propaganda
from the anti-nukes. So many here have had erroneous perceptions
about the physics, the insurance situation, waste disposal, safety,
and a whole plethora of issues.

I hope that those problems will be mitigated when people learn more.
Of course, I don't hold out much hope for those that fall into the
two classes of "unable to learn" and "unwilling to learn".

Dr. Greg

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. LOL - you're blaming it on anti-war protestors!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I remember a seminar during my graduate student days at MIT on the
problems of the nuclear industry. The seminar speaker showed that
the troubles in the nuclear industry started just as the Vietnam
War was winding down. When it was clear the war was winding down,
the Vietnam-era protesters looked around for something else to
protest, and nuclear power was their victim of choice.

IT WAS THE SAME DAMN HIPPIE PROTESTORS THAT STOPPED THE WAR!!!
WE COULD HAVE WON VIETNAM IF IT WASN'T FOR THEM DAMN HIPPIE PROTESTORS!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
One of the biggest problems is just plain IGNORANCE. We've seen
that played out so many times on this board. So many have been
gullible enough to swallow "hook, line, and sinker", the propaganda

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Ummmm...
You do realize that just because the "hippie protesters" were right about the Vietnam War doesn't mean they were necessarily right about Nuclear Power...
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. They were right about both
And just like there were a lot of veterans at the anti-war protests,
there were probably a lot of nuclear engineers at the anti-nuclear protests.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. I doubt that very much
there were probably a lot of nuclear engineers at the anti-nuclear protests.

I've never seen any polls describing support for nuclear among nuclear engineers, but there are polls that show that anti-nuke sentiments are linked to lower levels of education. I guess people who can actually grasp statistics and understand what is meant by 1-in-a-billion tend to be pro-nuke... :shrug:

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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nuclear collapsed from arrogant incompetence, ...
I remember well the struggles in California in the 60's and 70's
First PGE tried to build reactors on top of every active fault in the state, they constantly lied about the geology, nuclear science, economic feasibility, safety, you name it.
The Humboldt reactor, closed the dirtiest reactor in the country until the TMI mishap . Then the Bodega Bay fiasco, where PGE lied constantly during permitting hearings. Bodega Bay plans were eventually defeated then came the Diablo Canyon debacle. Same geological questions, thenafter many hearings they were required to change the already constructed design, with seismic retrofitting. Construction costs skyrocketed. Later it was discovered, the retrofit supports were constructed back wards because someone reversed the blueprints. Bechtel corp was called in to study and fix the problems. Bechtel had a similar SNAFU at Edison's San Onofre reactors installing both reactor vessels back wards. Even with such remedial competence, Bechtel found over six thousand construction errors in the Diablo Canyon facility.
Now one would think final licensing might be a problem but funding political coffers can work wonders. The construction and licensing costs now are well over 1000% of initial estimated costs and are politically hoisted onto the rate payer, rewarding incompetence, dishonesty, and arrogance.
It was this standard of procedure that led to the collapse of the nuclear industry.

link ~~ http://energy-net.org/01NUKE/CALIF.HTM
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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. REALLY????
Edited on Fri Oct-22-10 10:46 PM by DrGregory
Bechtel had a similar SNAFU at Edison's San Onofre reactors installing both reactor vessels back wards.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really??? I thought I was familiar with all the problems.

First, here are pictures of the two types of reactor vessels:

PWR:


BWR:


With it's R-Z cylindrical symmetry, when you say it was installed
"backwards", then am I to assume that the vessel was installed
"upside down"?

Given the cylindrical symmetry of the nuclear reactor vessel, could
you please explain to the readers what you mean when you said that
it was installed "backwards". What does "backward" mean in this
case?

One end of the reactor has the bolt-on head, and the builders were
so dumb as to install the reactor with this bolt-on head in the
downward position???

What does the statement that the reactor was installed "backwards"
mean?

Dr. Greg
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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Other Articles support the Unit 2 reactor vessel at San Onofre,
was installed backwards. This has been admitted by Bechtel. Unlike the link in the original post, these sources confine the problem to Unit 2 at San Onofre.

~~link~~ http://www.citizen.org/documents/profilebechtel.pdf

"In 1977, Bechtel installed the reactor vessel of California's San Onofre Unit 2 reactor 180 degrees backward, a detail that went undiscovered for seven months." lv. (footnote)

footnotes ~~
liii
Moody, Roger.. “The Gulliver File Mines, people and land: a global battleground.” Work on Waste. July, 1992. http://www.e-
tip.org/english/level1/wastenots/wn201.htm
liv
Ibid.
lv
Ibid.

following the source ~~

http://www.sea-us.org.au/gulliver/bechtel.html
~~snip~~

It is also the corporation which put the San Onofre reactor on backwards (6).

~~ lower on same page~~

Among Bechtel's notable mishaps are the following:

The Humboldt Bay, California, plant was one of the first operating nuclear power plants to be shut down permanently, in 1977, after it was discovered it was sitting directly on top of an earthquake fault.

Consumers Power Co of Michigan sued Bechtel for US$300 million in 1974 when its Palisades plant broke down shortly after it started operation. Bechtel agreed to a US$ 14 million settlement.

Portland General Electric Co sued Bechtel for US$32 million after severe leaks in the steam generator tubes of its Trojan nuclear plant shut it down, and the discovery that it did not meet earthquake standards set by the NRC. Bechtel countersued, and an out-of-court settlement was reached in 1981.

The 420-ton reactor vessel of its San Onofre Unit 2 was installed 180 degrees backwards in 1977: this was not discovered for seven months, a fact other nuclear engineers found incredible. San Onofre also sits near an earthquake fault. Unit 1 has been shut down by the NRC until it meets federal seismic standards after being almost constantly plagued with other mechanical problems preventing its operation.

~~ snip ~~ end excerpt

I tried to follow the sourcing on footnote (6) above, but it is apparently listed in the book by author Roger Moody, The Gulliver File Mines, people and land: a global battleground. I do not have access to this book.

Another article mentions the same installation problem, linked below.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6669

~~snip~~

And Don May, the president of California Earth Corp who has been fighting the plants since the 1960s, says that the future cost could be much higher because there is a major fault line about two miles away that is overdue for an earthquake. What worries him most is the fact that Bechtel installed one of the reactors backwards.

"The way the reactor has been installed at the site means that the seismic braces will exacerbate the impact of an earthquake rather than reduce it. In addition the reactor walls have been worn down to half their original thickness from constant bombardment." May explained. "If there is an earthquake, Lord help us."

Bechtel admits that the reactor was installed backwards but that's about it.

"There was not and is not any increased seismic risk," says Jeff Berger, a spokesman for Bechtel. "Bechtel, as the original constructor, would not be aware of reactor wall thinning problems. In-service inspections are typically conducted by the utility or subcontracted to the reactor supplier," he added.

~~snip~~ end excerpt

Now I don't pretend to be a nuclear scientist or nuclear expert of any kind, but several articles from differing sources state the reactor vessel was installed 180 degrees backward. This has been admitted by Bechtel.

There are differing opinions as to whether this is unsafe, but who would you rather trust? Independent engineers or engineers and/or press representatives from the company that couldn't read their own blueprints and install the vessel correctly?

I stand by my post above, and the SNAFU description of Bechtel's track record. Bechtel's many projects in the nuclear energy field, do not inspire confidence in design, construction, integrity, or corporate responsibility. Their attitude has been demonstrated to pass arrogance and embrace criminal negligence, falsifying documents, witness intimidation, to name just a few instances worth comment.

I remember Bechtel Corp. from the 60's, 70's, 80's and setting anathema aside, how can one deny the history of Bechtel's actions.





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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. And what happens when you have circular symmetry....

Now I don't pretend to be a nuclear scientist or nuclear expert of any kind, but several articles from differing sources state the reactor vessel was installed 180 degrees backward. This has been admitted by Bechtel.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes - now THINK about it.

As you can clearly see, the reactor has rotational symmetry.

The internals have Cartesian ( X-Y ) symmetry.

So tell me what the effect is if you install something with
circular and internally Cartesian symmetry 180 degrees out
of phase with what you wanted.

Think of it this way. The wheels of your car probably have
5 lug nuts on 5 lug bolts. You tell your mechanic to install
the tire in a specific orientation on the wheel.

You mechanic screws up and installs the tire in one of the
other 4 possible orientations. What is the problem?

What problems do you "think" ( term used loosely ) this
180 degree rotation of the cylindrically symmetric reactor
caused?

Dr. Greg

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caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. The vessel is installed inside a building
The building and its environment almost certainly do not have perfect symmetry about a vertical axis through the reactor vessel. There may be asymmetries in the mechanical supports, connections to other systems in the plant, etc. that you can't see in a generic drawing of a reactor vessel. I haven't been able to find any detail on the San Onofre reactor vessel itself, but while the vessel as a whole has a certain rotational symmetry it wouldn't be at all surprising if there were asymmetries in the connections to the structure of the building, control systems, etc.

Bechtel doesn't seem to be denying that they goofed, so I'm not sure why you're insisting that it didn't happen. They also say that there has been no fundamental problem operating with the unintended orientation. The main import of the mistake seems to be its use by people seeking to stop nuclear power to say we can't trust Bechtel to build complicated power plants when they make construction errors like this.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. When I read some of the posts like what you're replying too
the old saying of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit comes to mind. You're fighting a losing battle with the good doctor as he is a fraud at best, a lying asshole at the least. Yes a reactor vessel can be installed backwards as there is inlets and outlets that are not the same. It would be kinda like connecting the top radiator hose coming from the engine to the bottom of the radiator in an automobile.

PS I wouldn't waste my time on this one, but thats just me. :-)
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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Evidently someone doesn't understand "symmetry"
Edited on Sun Oct-24-10 03:43 PM by DrGregory
Yes a reactor vessel can be installed backwards as there is inlets and outlets that are not the same. It would be kinda like connecting the top radiator hose coming from the engine to the bottom of the radiator in an automobile.
====================================================

The argument above is vacuous. Unlike the reactor, the radiator
doesn't have up / down symmetry. Therefore, reversing the hoses
up / down certainly does make a difference.

However, because of the lack of symmetry, the argument is totally INEPT.

The better analogy is the one I proffered with the lug bolts
on the wheel. The wheels and lug bolts have a rotational symmetry
similar to that found on the reactor.

I think we all understand what happens if you install the wheel on
the lug bolts in different orientations.

"PS I wouldn't waste my time on this one, but thats just me."

I wonder why you don't take your own advice?

Dr. Greg

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DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. VACUOUS concerns
Edited on Sun Oct-24-10 03:36 PM by DrGregory
The building and its environment almost certainly do not have perfect symmetry about a vertical axis through the reactor vessel. There may be asymmetries in the mechanical supports, connections to other systems in the plant, etc. that you can't see in a generic drawing of a reactor vessel.
-----------------------------------------------------

I don't need the generic drawings. As a former reactor
design physicist for the national labs, I know the designs
of the reactors in much greater detail than shown in the
generic drawing.

Bechtel doesn't seem to be denying that they goofed, so I'm not sure why you're insisting that it didn't happen.

WHERE did you get the idea that I am denying they goofed.
GADS I get so sick of people doing what is in essence a strawman.
You MISINTERPRET and MISREPRESENT what someone says, and
then you attack your MISINTERPRETATION!!!!

Evidently lessons in reading comprehension are in order.
I didn't say that they didn't goof. I am saying it doesn't matter.

Do you understand the distinction between saying it didn't happen
and saying it doesn't matter?

Read my analogy from the previous post. You tell your auto mechanic
the exact orientation for the new tire on your car. You tell him
which hole in the wheel to match up with which lug bolt.

Your mechanic goofs and installs the tire in one of the other 4
orientations that are possible. How much of a problem is this?
Is your car going to be less safe because the mechanic installed
the tire in one of the other orientations?
Is the car's performance going to be adversely impacted due to
the tire being installed in a different orientation from the one
you specified.

Please tell us what problems have arisen given that Bechtel reversed
the orientation of the reactor vessel?

If you can't say what the problems are, then why are you complaining?

The last I heard, San Onofre Unit 2 has been operating just fine
since August 1983. Nearly 3 decades of safe operation and people
start complaining about something they know absolutely ZILCH about?

Before you start taking pot shots, you should be sure your gun is loaded.

Dr. Greg

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caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. "WHERE did you get the idea that I am denying they goofed." from post 28
"WHERE did you get the idea that I am denying they goofed.
GADS I get so sick of people doing what is in essence a strawman.
You MISINTERPRET and MISREPRESENT what someone says, and
then you attack your MISINTERPRETATION!!!!"


I'm sorry, someone else must have written post #28 on this thread, where someone responded to

"Bechtel had a similar SNAFU at Edison's San Onofre reactors installing both reactor vessels back wards."

with

"Really??? I thought I was familiar with all the problems."

I think an ordinary, reasonable reader would take this as denying an error had been made.

This was then followed by

"Given the cylindrical symmetry of the nuclear reactor vessel, could
you please explain to the readers what you mean when you said that
it was installed "backwards". What does "backward" mean in this
case?

One end of the reactor has the bolt-on head, and the builders were
so dumb as to install the reactor with this bolt-on head in the
downward position???

What does the statement that the reactor was installed "backwards"
mean?"


You really can't have it both ways - either there exists a meaningful sense in which the installation was "backwards" and Bechtel admits to it, or the whole notion of such an error is nonsensical (the apparent position taken by the mysterious author of post 28) - which suggests Bechtel made no error to admit to.

I think we agree that the answer is that Bechtel did indeed make an error in the installation and that this error did not materially affect the safe operation of the plant. If that was the message Post 28 was supposed to convey it failed miserably.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
40. But..but..but...what about hippies and Greenpeace? We were told they done it!
:D
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Well, that's what Greenpeace likes to claim, isn't it? (nt)
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
53. I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that they were being litigated into bankruptcy...
before the plants were even built.

Mostly by people who's knowledge of engineering didn't even extend to basic hand tools.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. No, it didn't.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. What was the cause then?
What caused reactor costs to increase 10-15 times from 1971 to 1986?
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
74. *Crickets* (nt)
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. Not in 1974
In 1974, reactor orders fell like a rock and cancellations of existing orders skyrocketed.
It's not because suddenly in 1974 there was massive litigation.
It wasn't because of Three Mile Island - that was in 1979, five years later.
It wasn't because of Jane Fonda and "The China Syndrome" - that was also in 1979.
It wasn't because of the "No Nukes" concert - that was also in 1979.
Look closely at this graph (I linked to the source somewhere upthread):


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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. Were there regulatory changes that may have slowed/stopped the construction of those plants?
For the record, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I honestly don't know much about the period other than going to anti-nuke demonstrations with my parents (I was 5 in '74).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. In 1974 the country was reeling from the first oil embargo...
At the time much of our electricity came from oil, not coal as it does today. Therefore one of the effects was to transition the oil electric sector to an alternative.

Coal and natural gas was far less expensive than nuclear and they won. The initial promise that nuclear could deliver inexpensive power had been undermined by the requirement that it meet an incredibly high bar for safety performance due to the incredibly severe consequences should the systems fail, and safety costs money.

There was simply no place for more nuclear in that economic environment.

The choices today to replace coal lead to a similar outcome for nuclear in that nuclear is still far too expensive directly *and* it carries with it substantial external costs relative to the alternatives that are not able to be priced into the product adequately.

At the link below there is a graph about 2/3s of the way down the page that shows yearly economic activity. You can see the circumstances that led to the end of the nuclear buildout there.

http://www.frbsf.org/education/activities/drecon/answerxml.cfm?selectedurl=/2008/0801.html

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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Projected demand did not materialize
Utilities had made unrealistic projections off how much demand for electricity would increase. As the 1970's unfolded and the projected demand did not materialize, utilities realized that they did not need as much capacity as they thought and stopped ordering new plants and canceled many existing orders. This was not unique to nuclear, utilities canceled plans for all types of power plants in the mid to late 1970's. A good history of the time period is here:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/chg_stru_update/appa.html
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. litigated into bankruptcy? Got any proof
Or are you are just making stuff up and putting it on the internet??
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