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Small uranium reactors, geothermal, hydroelectric, and natural gas will be bridge to thorium economy

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Christopher Calder Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 12:38 PM
Original message
Small uranium reactors, geothermal, hydroelectric, and natural gas will be bridge to thorium economy
I believe that small, modular uranium based nuclear reactor designs, combined with geothermal power plants, hydroelectric power plants, and natural gas power plants, are the cleanest way to gradually transition to Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors and other designs that use thorium as the primary fuel. Thorium is really our only major long term energy solution.

Hyperion Power Generation Inc. hopes to manufacture the Hyperion Power Module (HPM), which is a liquid metal cooled “fast” reactor. Each HPM-based electric plant generates 25MW of electricity and can be configured for steam only, co-generation, or electricity only. Inherent negative feedback keeps the reactor stable and operating at a constant temperature. HPMs use uranium nitride fuel and a lead bismuth eutectic coolant. At just 5 feet wide and 6.5 feet tall (1.5 meters by 2 meters), the reactor can be transported to site by ship, rail or road. The battery like HMP produces power for 8 to 10 years and is then shipped back to the factory for refurbishing and reloading. The company claims an estimated cost of 10 cents per kilowatt hour or less, and suggests the HPM could also power civilian cargo ships, which would save enormous amounts of diesel fuel and reduce global CO2 emissions. This very simple design is meltdown proof and the uranium it contains is not weapons grade.

SEE: http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/product.html

Two other United States companies are planning small, modular designs using more traditional light water technology.

NuScale - http://www.nuscalepower.com/ot-Scalable-Nuclear-Power-Technology.php

Babcock & Wilcox - http://www.babcock.com/products/modular_nuclear/

These small, safe, affordable uranium based nuclear reactors, along with geothermal, hydroelectric, and natural gas power plants will be a transitional step that leads the way to the ultimate human energy source, THORIUM. When you think nuclear reactor, you should think small and modular. That means assembly line construction, predictability, and easy to finance.

Thorium is so abundant in the earth’s crust that we will never run out of it. The state of Idaho alone has thousands of years worth of rich thorium deposits, and it takes very little thorium to produce huge amounts of energy. NASA rocket scientist turned nuclear engineer, Kirk Sorensen, stated that "The amount of thorium it would take to power my whole life is the size of a marble that would fit in my hand."

For the story on thorium power, see:

http://thorium.50webs.com/

To see why wind, solar, and biofuels are a complete disaster if used for large scale energy production, see: http://renewable.50webs.com/





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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. FWIW:
The http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Caatati">Caatati used thorium as a power source and they were assimilated by the Borg.

Just a thought...
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Do I get my atomic flying car, too?
I've been hearing promises about "safe nuclear power so cheap we can throw away the meter box" since the 1950s.



Gee, even comes with flashing cop light on top and a Dick Tracy wrist radio. Gosh, the 21st Century is so cool!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SCfwBkF65oY/SNPCdASuoVI/AAAAAAAAFDs/2FxhSSUZWtM/s400/Dick+Tracy+on+Wrist+Radio+talkinga+bout+rescue.jpg
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You'll love this old chesnut from 1938, then:
Edited on Sat Sep-25-10 05:01 PM by Dead_Parrot
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/05/08/new-efforts-may-harness-sun-light/



Note how it claims it will be "economically practicable for us to use at least a small portion of our now-wasted sunshine to run our factories, light our streets, cook our food, and warm our houses" not in a few years time but "a few years hence" - because the English language has evolved faster than the claims being made.

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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Uh-oh ...
Why do I sense an onslaught of Mark Z Jacobsen, Amory Lovins and other
unrelated spam being prepared in a desperate attempt to drown this thread
and any memory people may have had of that reply?

1938 eh? ... some things obviously take a long time to "perfect" ...
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. According to the article, 1747 saw the first tinkering with solar thermal...
...some French guy called Buffon. Sadly, any remarks he may have made along the lines of "in a few yearf, it shalle power alle the houses of Lyonne" have been lost in the intervening centuries.

It's a fun read, if you can think in olde horsepower.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Meanwhile, in the real world...
Edited on Mon Sep-27-10 07:50 AM by kristopher
Matching Utility Loads with Solar and Wind Power in North Carolina


Open Access Document
Executive Summary

Matching Utility Loads with Solar and Wind Power in North Carolina
Dealing with Intermittent Electricity Sources

by John Blackburn, Ph.D.
March 2010

Those reluctant to endorse a widespread conversion to renewable energy sources in the U.S. frequently argue that the undeniably intermittent nature of solar and wind power make it difficult, if not impossible, to provide reliable power to meet variations in demand without substantial backup generation. Several studies, concentrating on areas with ample sources of both wind and solar power have suggested that a combination of the two, when spread over a sufficiently wide geographic area, could be used to overcome the inherent intermittency of each separately, reducing the need for backup generation. Moreover, since the backup power is required at more or less randomly distributed times, the availability of baseload power, so strongly entrenched in utility circles, becomes more or less irrelevant.

This study examines these ideas with data gathered in the state of North Carolina. Contrary to the idea that such an arrangement will be subject to heavy backup requirements from conventional sources, the clear conclusion of the study is that backup generation requirements are modest and not even necessarily in the form of baseload generation.


In North Carolina the two largest potential renewable electricity sources are solar and wind generation. The former is the case almost everywhere in the U. S., the latter is also the case in North Carolina, given wind resources in the mountains, along the coast, and offshore, both in the Sounds and in the ocean. Hydroelectricity (now 2,000 megawatts (MW) and potentially 2,500 MW) and biomass combustion represent the other renewable sources available in the State. Solar and wind generation have some obvious complementarities. Wind speeds are usually higher at night than in the daytime, and are higher in winter than in summer. Solar generation, on the other hand, takes place only in the daytime and is only half as strong in winter as in summertime.

The study described here used hourly North Carolina wind and solar data for the 123 days of the sample seasonal months of January, July, October, and April. This entailed making 2,952 observations at each of three wind sites and three solar sites or 17,712 entries in all. In the absence of actual kilowatt-hour output data for long periods from functioning installations in widely separated locations, wind speed and solar irradiation were taken at the three sites each and converted to presumed wind and solar power outputs. Wind data was converted using the specifications of the wind turbines chosen for the study, shown below. Actual power readings for shorter periods from solar installations at two sites (from readings made in different years), were used to calibrate the presumed solar output at the chosen sites.

The generation patterns given by these sites were, for this initial exploration, taken to be representative of all of the sites in North Carolina. Solar and wind power generation constructed as outlined above were then scaled up to represent 80% (40% each) of average utility loads for the four sample months, with the remainder coming from the hydroelectric system (8%) and assumed biomass cogeneration (12%). The annual utility load was taken to be 90 billion kWh, a somewhat more energy-efficient version of the present 125 billion kWh load. Average hourly loads in each of the four seasons were taken from Duke Energy’s 2006 load profile. These were modified to show some reduction in summer and winter peaks as structures become more energy-efficient and enjoy disproportionate reductions in heating and especially cooling energy demands. The reductions were based on the author’s data set of measured energy use in more than one hundred North Carolina homes.

Wind generation was calculated from wind speeds using the cut-in, cut-out speeds and power curve for the General Electric 1.5 MW turbine (model 1.5xle). Solar generation was taken to be proportional to solar radiation at a ground level flat surface. Not surprisingly, wind generation from the three wind sites combined showed less variability than at each site separately. Solar generation did likewise, but with less variation to begin with. The literature suggests that day-by-day and hour-by hour wind variation would be further reduced by adding many more sites far enough apart to have somewhat different hourly wind regimes.

North Carolina has several means of evening out differences between variable generation and load from hour to hour within days, but very limited ability to carry stored energy forward from day to day. The hydroelectric system is already used as a means to meet peak demands with a generation system heavily oriented toward baseload generation. In addition, there is pumped storage capacity in the Duke Energy system amounting to 2,100 MW, of which 1,360 MW has up to 24 hours of storage. In the summer, hourly storage is supplemented by the capacity of some large commercial customers to make ice in off-peak times and then run air conditioning systems without running the chillers at peak times in the afternoon and evening. In addition, the two largest utilities now have some 2,000 MW of load control arrangements.

As smart grids are developed, some customers will be able to respond to real-time pricing, offering still more opportunities to shift loads during the day. Still other storage opportunities may arise when plug-in hybrid vehicles are in use and have two-way communications with grid operators. With these possibilities in view, days and hours were examined in the data set in order to determine how many days and hours would need auxiliary generation, either by purchase from other systems or by (probably gas turbine) back-up generation within the system.

As the day totals in each of the four sample months were examined, it was apparent that the sum of solar and wind generation, day by day in each month were approximately normally distributed, with standard deviations running about one-fourth of the mean. In January, for example, mean daily generation for the month was about equal to the 80% specified above. Daily total power generation for the sample month of January as well as the hourly power generation for a sample day in January are shown here. Larger versions of these charts as well as charts for other sample months and another sample day are shown in the main text. Day totals varied, with about half the days showing above average generation and half below average. Within the below-average days, two-thirds were below average by a quarter or less of the mean. Only very rarely was the shortfall more than half the mean. Some days with above-average wind and solar generation still had hours when supplemental generation would be needed, but not often.

When all the days and all of the hours were considered, it appeared that auxiliary generation amounting to 6% of the annual total generation would be sufficient to fill in nearly all of the gaps between hourly renewable generation and hourly utility loads. The backup generation amounted to purchases from other systems up to 5% of hourly loads, and 2,700 MW of gas-fired capacity. There were 17 hours in the four months considered when still more backup power would be needed, or a loss-of-load probability of .0058

The out-of-system purchases or back-up generation in the system dropped the wind-solar contribution to 78% of the load. These results are shown in Table 1 of the main text (online at www.ieer.org/reports/NC-Wind-Solar.pdf. )

The important conclusion is that intermittent solar and wind energy, especially when generated at dispersed sites and coupled with storage and demand-shifting capacities of a system like North Carolina’s, can generate very large portions of total electricity output with rather minimal auxiliary backup.

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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wouldn't it be lover-ly
Lover-ly
Lover-ly
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Where is one of these located
the page you link to looks like a sales brochure and nothing more. Has this been built or is it still in the imagination of the engineers who are so desperately wanting/needing money, or it seems that way from checking out the linked page.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. India has one going on line. Or it's already on line.
Try searching google. I think one of the Wiki pages has more info.

I've been pretty excited about this old and yet virtually ignored technology. It appears to be very good stuff.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Pursuing more nuclear powered energy producing plants is a waste of money, effort and mostly time
What is it that the pro nuke crowd can't see in this is what I'd like to be able to understand. Is living in denial an intelligent way to make important decisions concerning the well being of this planet that we all call home? I've been saying it for a long time, long before I found this place, that nuclear power is a big ass LIE. Just think of all the dangerous to the whole world nuclear bombs there is and how most of them came into existence and if that doesn't sit one back in his/her chair I don't know what would.

Lets stop the bullshit and get on with solving the very real problem called global warming. Nuclear energy is not the savior that some want to believe it is in fact it only compounds the problem.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We don't "see it" because we understand high school level math and science.
For instance, the fact that you can't practicably pave over 60,000 square miles with solar cells to produce he energy demands of the US.

And since you're apparently unaware, the world's nuclear arsenal was not manufactured from civilian reactors. You don't need a reactor at all in order to build a nuclear bomb.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. So you say proliferation isn't a problem...
The pronuclear contingent at MIT disagree with you.

Findings from MIT 2003 nuclear study "The Future of Nuclear Power"

Over the next 50 years, unless patterns change dramatically, energy production and use will contribute to global warming through large-scale greenhouse gas emissions — hundreds of billions of tonnes of carbon in the form of carbon dioxide. Nuclear power could be one option for reducing carbon emissions. At present, however, this is unlikely: nuclear power faces stagnation and decline.

This study analyzes what would be required to retain nuclear power as a significant option for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and meeting growing needs for electricity supply. Our analysis is guided by a global growth scenario that would expand current worldwide nuclear generating capacity almost threefold, to 1000 billion watts,by the year 2050.Such a deployment would avoid 1.8 billion tonnes of carbon emissions annually from coal plants, about 25% of the increment in carbon emissions otherwise expected in a business-as-usual scenario. This study also recommends changes in government policy and industrial practice needed in the relatively near term to retain an option for such an outcome. (Want to guess what these are? - K)

We did not analyze other options for reducing carbon emissions — renewable energy sources, carbon sequestration,and increased energy efficiency — and therefore reach no conclusions about priorities among these efforts and nuclear power. In our judgment, it would be a mistake to exclude any of these four options at this time.

STUDY FINDINGS
For a large expansion of nuclear power to succeed,four critical problems must be overcome:

Cost. In deregulated markets, nuclear power is not now cost competitive with coal and natural gas.However,plausible reductions by industry in capital cost,operation and maintenance costs, and construction time could reduce the gap. Carbon emission credits, if enacted by government, can give nuclear power a cost advantage.

Safety.
Modern reactor designs can achieve a very low risk of serious accidents, but “best practices”in construction and operation are essential.We know little about the safety of the overall fuel cycle,beyond reactor operation.

Waste.
Geological disposal is technically feasible but execution is yet to be demonstrated or certain. A convincing case has not been made that the long-term waste management benefits of advanced, closed fuel cycles involving reprocessing of spent fuel are outweighed by the short-term risks and costs. Improvement in the open,once through fuel cycle may offer waste management benefits as large as those claimed for the more expensive closed fuel cycles.

Proliferation
The current international safeguards regime is inadequate to meet the security challenges of the expanded nuclear deployment contemplated in the global growth scenario. The reprocessing system now used in Europe, Japan, and Russia that involves separation and recycling of plutonium presents unwarranted proliferation risks. .

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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Without looking it up I'd say that most of them were
Nuclear power is not the answer to our energy problems, it's that simple. Nuclear energy isn't even all that co2 negative when you take into account all phases of the operation from the origin to the grave. Speaking of grave we don't even really have a grave yard for the huge amount of irradiated materials that we have now that we wouldn't have had if not for nuclear powered power plants. Not to mention the added materials that ramping up nuclear energy would produce.
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