Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Scrapping the Safe Nuke?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 11:51 PM
Original message
Scrapping the Safe Nuke?
Edited on Mon Oct-11-10 11:52 PM by bananas
http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2010/10/w84.php

Oct 06
Scrapping the Safe Nuke?
By Hans M. Kristensen

<snip>

The W84 was and probably is the safest of all the warhead types produced by the United States. It is equipped with more safety and security (surety) features than any other warhead: Insensitive High Explosives; Fire Resistant Pit; Enhanced Nuclear Detonation Safety (ENDS/EEI) with detonator stronglinks; Command Disable; and the most advanced Permissive Action Link (PAL G).

It may seem as an irony that the safest warhead is being scrapped at a time when the administration is asking Congress to authorize billions of dollars to increase the safety and security of the remaining warheads in the stockpile. But there is a twist.

<snip>

As a result, the W84 – and all other retired warheads currently in line for dismantlement – “will be assessed for reuse applications as appropriate,” NNSA told me.

Therefore, they said, “it would be premature to assume that components from the W84 operations will be for immediate disposal (scrapping).”

<snip>


This is another problem with nuclear proliferation - it's unlikely that the weapons built by India, Pakistan, Iran, N.Korea will have the same safety features as the ones built by NATO and USSR countries.

Note to moderators: this is posted in EE because the nuclear weapons have severe environmental effects (as well as the obvious human devastation). Also, nuclear proliferation is one of the major problems with nuclear energy, which is not only common sense and common knowledge, it's also specifically been pointed out by Al Gore, MIT's "The Future of Nuclear Energy", and numerous others.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Running out of real news or something?
... so you're having to re-hash one of your pet distractions (again)?

Slightly more honest "Note to moderators": this is posted in EE because the
certain posters just love conflating nuclear power and nuclear weapons in order
to feed the fears of the ignorant.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nope
Cost, safety, waste, and proliferation are well known as some of the major problems with nuclear energy.
Although most of my posts may have focused on cost, it would be incorrect to ignore these other major problems.
There are also additional problems, such as uranium tailings, etc.
The issue of nuclear weapons apart from nuclear energy is in itself a serious environmental problem.
See http://www.eoearth.org/article/Nuclear_winter
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Not with Thorium Cycle reactors... .... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Nuclear pushers rush from one discredited technology to another
Nuclear pushers rush from one discredited technology to another, and Lovins charts how they race from one design to the next as their claims of "This is THE solution!!" are confronted with by reality.


Open Access article

"New" Nuclear Reactors, Same Old Story
By Amory B. Lovins
Originally published in Solutions Journal, Spring 2009

The dominant type of new nuclear power plant, light-water reactors (LWRs), proved unfinanceable in the robust 2005–08 capital market, despite new U.S. subsidies approaching or exceeding their total construction cost. New LWRs are now so costly and slow that they save 2–20× less carbon, 20–40× slower, than micropower and efficient end-use.1 As this becomes evident, other kinds of reactors are being proposed instead—novel designs claimed to solve LWRs' problems of economics, proliferation, and waste.2 Even climate-protection pioneer Jim Hansen says these “Gen IV” reactors merit rapid R&D.3 But on closer examination, the two kinds most often promoted— Integral Fast Reactors (IFRs) and thorium reactors4—reveal no economic, environmental, or security rationale, and the thesis is unsound for any nuclear reactor.

Integral Fast Reactors (IFRs)
The IFR—a pool-type, liquid-sodium-cooled fast-neutron5 reactor plus an ambitious new nuclear fuel cycle—was abandoned in 1994,6 and General Electric's S-PRISM design in ~2003, due to both proliferation concerns and dismal economics. Federal funding for fast breeder reactors7 halted in 1983, but in the past few years, enthusiasts got renewed Bush Administration support by portraying IFRs as a solution to proliferation and nuclear waste. It’s neither.

Fast reactors were first offered as a way to make more plutonium to augment and ultimately replace scarce uranium. Now that uranium and enrichment are known to get cheaper while reprocessing, cleanup, and nonproliferation get costlier—destroying the economic rationale— IFRs have been rebranded as a way to destroy the plutonium (and similar transuranic elements) in long-lived radioactive waste. Two or three redesigned IFRs could in principle fission the plutonium produced by each four LWRs without making more net plutonium. However, most LWRs will have retired before even one commercial-size IFR could be built; LWRs won’t be replaced with more LWRs because they’re grossly uncompetitive; and IFRs with their fuel cycle would cost even more and probably be less reliable. It’s feasible today to “burn” plutonium in LWRs, but this isn’t done much because it’s very costly, makes each kg of spent fuel 7× hotter, enhances risks, and makes certain transuranic isotopes that complicate operation. IFRs could do the same thing with similar or greater problems, offering no advantage over LWRs in proliferation resistance, cost, or environment.

IFRs’ reprocessing plant, lately rebranded a “recycling center,” would be built at or near the reactors, coupling them so neither works without the other. Its novel technology, replacing solvents and aqueous chemistry with high-temperature pyrometallurgy and electrorefining, would incur different but major challenges, greater technical risks and repair problems, and speculative but probably worse economics. (Argonne National Laboratory the world's experts on it, contracted to pyroprocess spent fuel from EBR-II — a small IFR-like test reactor shut down in 1994—by 2035, at a cost DOE estimated in 2006 at ~50× today's cost of fresh LWR fuel.)

Reprocessing of any kind makes waste management more difficult and complex, increases the volume and diversity of waste streams, increases by several- to many fold the cost of nuclear fueling, and separates bomb-usable material that can’t be adequately measured or protected. Mainly for this last reason, all Presidents since Gerald Ford in 1976 (except G.W. Bush in 2006–08) discouraged it. An IFR/pyroprocessing system would give any country immediate access to over a thousand bombs’ worth of plutonium to fuel it, facilities to recover that plutonium, and experts to separate and fabricate it into bomb cores—hardly a path to a safer world.

IFRs might in principle offer some safety advantages over today’s light-water reactors, but create different safety concerns, including the sodium coolant’s chemical reactivity and radioactivity. Over the past half-century, the world’s leading nuclear technologists have built about three dozen sodium-cooled fast reactors, 11 of them Naval. Of the 22 whose histories are mostly reported, over half had sodium leaks, four suffered fuel damage (including two partial meltdowns), several others had serious accidents, most were prematurely closed, and only six succeeded. Admiral Rickover canceled sodium-cooled propulsion for USS Seawolf in 1956 as “expensive to build, complex to operate, susceptible to prolonged shutdown as a result of even minor malfunctions, and difficult and time-consuming to repair.” Little has changed. As Dr. Tom Cochran of NRDC notes, fast reactor programs were tried in the US, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the USSR, and the US and Soviet Navies. All failed. After a half-century and tens of billions of dollars, the world has one operational commercial-sized fast reactor (Russia's BN600) out of 438 commercial power reactors, and it's not fueled with plutonium.

IFRs are often claimed to “burn up nuclear waste” and make its "time of concern...less than 500 years" rather than 10,000–100,000 years or more. That's wrong: most of the radioactivity comes from fission products, including very long-lived isotopes like iodine-129 and technetium-99, and their mix is broadly similar in any nuclear fuel cycle.

IFRs' wastes may contain less transuranics, but at prohibitive cost and with worse occupational exposures, routine releases, accident and terrorism risks, proliferation, and disposal needs for intermediate- and low-level wastes. It's simply a dishonest fantasy to claim, as a Wall Street Journal op-ed just did,8 that such hypothetical and uneconomic ways to recover energy or other value from spent LWR fuel mean “There is no such thing as nuclear waste.” Of course, the nuclear industry wishes this were true.

No new kind of reactor is likely to be much, if at all, cheaper than today's LWRs, which remain grossly uncompetitive and are getting more so despite five decades of
maturation.


“New reactors” are precisely the “paper reactors” Admiral Rickover described in 1953:

An academic reactor or reactor plant almost always has the following basic characteristics:
(1) It is simple.
(2) It is small.
(3) It is cheap.
(4) It is light.
(5) It can be built very quickly.
(6) It is very flexible in purpose.
(7) Very little development will be required. It will use off the shelf components.
(8) The reactor is in the study phase. It is not being built now.

On the other hand a practical reactor can be distinguished by the following characteristics:
(1) It is being built now.
(2) It is behind schedule.
(3) It requires an immense amount of development on apparently trivial items.
(4) It is very expensive.
(5) It takes a long time to build because of its engineering development problems.
(6) It is large.
(7) It is heavy.
(8) It is complicated.

Every new type of reactor in history has been costlier, slower, and harder than projected. IFRs’ low pressure, different safety profile, high temperature, and potentially higher thermal efficiency (if its helium turbines didn’t misbehave as they have in all previous reactor projects) come with countervailing disadvantages and costs that advocates assume away, contrary to all experience.

Thorium reactors
Some enthusiasts prefer fueling reactors with thorium—an element 3× as abundant as uranium but even more uneconomic to use. India has for decades failed to commercialize breeder reactors to exploit its thorium deposits.

But thorium can’t fuel a reactor by itself: rather, a uranium- or plutonium-fueled reactor can convert thorium-232 into fissionable (and plutonium-like, highly bomb-usable) uranium-233. Thorium’s proliferation,9 waste, safety, and cost problems differ only in detail from uranium’s: e.g., thorium ore makes less mill waste, but highly radioactive U-232 makes fabricating or reprocessing U-233 fuel hard and costly. And with uranium-based nuclear power continuing its decades-long economic collapse, it’s awfully late to be thinking of developing a whole new fuel cycle whose problems differ only in detail from current versions.

Spent LWR fuel “burned” in IFRs, it’s claimed, could meet all humanity’s energy needs for centuries. But renewables and efficiency can do that forever at far lower cost, with no proliferation, nuclear wastes, or major risks.10 Moreover, any new type of reactor would probably cost even more than today’s models: even if the nuclear part of a new plant were free, the rest—two-thirds of its capital cost—would still be grossly uncompetitive with any efficiency and most renewables, sending out a kilowatt-hour for ~9–13¢/kWh instead of new LWRs’ ~12–18+¢. In contrast, the average U.S. windfarm completed in 2007 sold its power (net of a 1¢/kWh subsidy that’s a small fraction of nuclear subsidies) for 4.5¢/kWh. Add ~0.4¢ to make it dispatchable whether the wind is blowing or not and you’re still under a nickel delivered to the grid.
Most other renewables also beat new thermal power plants too, cogeneration is often comparable or cheaper, and efficiency is cheaper than just running any nuclear- or fossil-fueled plant. Obviously these options would also easily beat proposed fusion reactors that are sometimes claimed to be comparable to today’s fission reactors in size and cost. And unlike any kind of hypothetical fusion or new fission reactor—or LWRs, which have a market share below 2%—efficiency and micropower now provide at least half the world’s new electrical services, adding tens of times more capacity each year than nuclear power does. It’s a far bigger gamble to assume that the nuclear market loser will become a winner than that these winners will turn into losers.

Small reactors
Toshiba claims to be about to market a 200-kWe nuclear plant (~5000× smaller than today's norm); a few startup firms like Hyperion Power Generation aim to make 10¢/kWh electricity from miniature reactors for which it claims over 100 firm orders. Unfortunately, 10¢ is the wrong target to beat: the real competitor is not other big and costly thermal power plants, but micropower and negawatts, whose delivered retail cost is often ~1–6¢/kWh.11 Can one imagine in principle that mass-production, passive operation, automation (perhaps with zero operating and security staff), and supposedly failsafe design might enable hypothetical small reactors to approach such low costs?

No, for two basic reasons:

• Nuclear reactors derive their claimed advantages from highly concentrated sources of heat, and hence also of radiation. But the shielding and thermal protection needed to contain that concentrated energy and exploit it (via turbine cycles) are inherently unable to scale down as well as technologies whose different principles avoid these issues.
• By the time the new reactors could be proven, accepted by regulators and the public, financed, built, and convincingly tested, they couldn’t undercut the then prices of negawatts and micropower that are beating them by 2–20× today—and would have gained decades of further head start on their own economies of mass production.

In short, the notion that different or smaller reactors plus wholly new fuel cycles (and, usually, new competitive conditions and political systems) could overcome nuclear energy's inherent problems is not just decades too late, but fundamentally a fantasy.

Fantasies are all right, but people should pay for their own. Investors in and advocates of small-reactor innovations will be disappointed. But in due course, the aging advocates of the half-century-old reactor concepts that never made it to market will retire and die, their credulous young devotees will relearn painful lessons lately forgotten, and the whole nuclear business will complete its slow death of an incurable attack of market forces. Meanwhile, the rest of us shouldn't be distracted from getting on with the winning investments that make sense, make money, and really do solve the energy, climate, and proliferation problems, led by business for profit.

Amory Lovins, a student of nuclear issues since the 1960s, is Chairman and Chief Scientist of RMI. He is grateful to Drs. Tom Cochran (NRDC), Frank von Hippel (Princeton), and Hal Feiveson (Princeton) for generously sharing their insights.

1 A.B. Lovins et al., “Nuclear Power: Climate Fix or Folly?,” RMI, 31 Dec. 2008,
www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Energy/E09-01_NuclPwrClimFixFolly1i09.pdf.
2 E.g., Tom Blees's Prescription for the Planet, skirsch.com/politics/globalwarming/ifr.htm, and three retired Argonne National Laboratory physicists' 2005 Scientific American summary article at www.nationalcenter.org/NuclearFastReactorsSA1205.pdf.
3 See www.columbia.edu/%7Ejeh1/mailings/20081229_Obama_revised.pdf.
4 For a third type often proposed, see J. Harding, “Pebble Bed Modular Reactors—Status and Prospects,” 2005, RMI Publication #E05-10, www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Energy/E05-10_PebbleBedReactors.pdf; S. Thomas, “The Economic Impact of the Proposed Demonstration Plant for the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor Design,” Aug 2005, www.psiru.org/reports/2005-09-E-PBMR.pdf; www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?storyCode=2030985, 6 Sep 2005.
5 Such reactors, called “fast reactors” for short, do not slow down their neutrons with a “moderator” like water or graphite. They therefore don't depend on a small fraction of “delayed” neutrons to keep the chain reaction going, so they require different means of control and safety.
6 See www.nationalcenter.org/NPA378.html.
7 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor.
8 W. Tucker, 13 March 2009, online.wsj.com/article/SB123690627522614525.html.
9 Most proposed thorium cycles need reprocessing to separate U-233 for use in fresh fuel. Some also use 20%-enriched uranium-235, which needs very little further enrichment to become bomb-usable. Diluting U-233 with U-238 also makes more separable plutonium. See A.B. Lovins, “Thorium Cycles and Proliferation,” Bull. atom. Scient. 35(2):16–22 (1979), 35(5):50–54 (1979), 35(9):57–59 (1979), all at books.google.com/books?id=GgsAAAAAMBAJ&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0#all_issues_anchor.
10 See ref. 1.
11 Id.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Post the same thing again and again and again. Still doesn't make it right.
The US operated a test bed Thorium reactor successfully for years. They finalized the design and by the time they were done making necessary adjustments to the initial plant design all the bugs were worked out. They had at that point a fully working Thorium reactor. Stating that India cannot do it is the height of irrelevancy. India cannot put a man on the moon either. Does that mean that we cannot and never did?!?

Stating that Thorium is 3 times as abundant as Uranium is technically true but the Thorium cycle produces many times the electricity as a Uranium cycle reactor so the Thorium resource will last many times longer than Uranium, pound for pound. And the refining and processing of the Uranium to make it suitable for today's nuclear reactors belies its 1/3 abundance compared to Thorium.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrGregory Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. How about for the USA?
Cost, safety, waste, and proliferation are well known as some of the major problems with nuclear energy.
=====================================================================

First - there are reactor designs like the IFR that CAN NOT be used
for making nuclear weapons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/interviews/till.html

QUOTE:

Q: So it would be very difficult to handle for weapons, would it?

A: It's impossible to handle for weapons, as it stands.

It's highly radioactive. It's highly heat producing. It has all of the characteristics that make it extremely, well, make it impossible for someone to make a weapon.

UNQUOTE

However, what is wrong with the USA using a technology that can be
used to make nuclear weapons? Are you afraid the USA is going to
be a nuclear proliferant?

I have news for you - the USA ALREADY HAS nuclear weapons. It also
has ALL the fissile material it needs for its stockpile. The USA
STOPPED MAKING plutonium and HEU about two DECADES ago.

The USA does make tritium - because tritium is used in US
thermonuclear warheads and because it is radioactive with a
12 year half-life; you have to continually replenish it because
it goes away on you. It turns into He-3, and that doesn't do
what the weapon needs to be done.

The USA nuclear weapons enterprise doesn't need a nuclear power
program to keep it going. As I said before; the USA used to
use special reactors at Savannah River to make tritium, and now
uses a couple TVA power reactors as a cost cutting move.

If the TVA reactors went away - the DOE would use some other
reactors instead. So making a nuclear power industry go away
DOES NOTHING to make nuclear weapons go away.

Dr. Greg
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Been looking in the mirror lately I see :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Nah ... too scary :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Recommended to no avail
Can't be having this information out there now can they
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The infomation is there.
Happily, the educated majority knows that it sucks fucking canal water through a fucking straw. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well if you aren't a big ball of information I don't know what is
:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's right, cupcake.
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC