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Don't Hold Your Breath On Hydrogen Cars - Observer/Guardian

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 11:16 AM
Original message
Don't Hold Your Breath On Hydrogen Cars - Observer/Guardian
"It is hard to imagine oil companies and environmentalists in agreement on how to achieve greener travel. But now the car industry has made it clear the future fuel of choice will be hydrogen, and although the technology is still in its early stages, the big players in the climate-change debate are starting to speak the same language.

Car manufacturers have talked for a long time about the need to develop new fuel sources. Hydrogen is a clean gas, and when used in fuel cells to power cars, it produces nothing more harmful than water. Because fuel cells operate like batteries to create electricity through a chemical reaction, there is no combustion, and therefore no emissions.

But there are still a number of questions about hydrogen's viability as an alternative fuel, and one of these concerns the best way to produce it. Oil companies say obtaining hydrogen from natural gas is currently the easiest option. The main problem as far as environmental groups are concerned is that CO2 produced during this process will counteract hydrogen's benefits as an emission-free fuel. Although oil companies and environmentalists both see hydrogen as the goal, their reasons for this are very different. Jeremy Bentham, CEO of Shell Hydrogen, says it is a question of offering customers greater choice. 'This is not about reducing reliance on fossil fuels. We have seen development from coal to oil and now we are getting natural gas,' he explains.

EDIT

For now, at least, hydrogen fuel-cell cars are still a long way off. Developing hybrid technology has enabled the car industry to buy time while it carries out research, but there is no sign that fossil fuels will be phased out in the near future."

EDIT

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/carbontrust/story/0,16099,1511916,00.html
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Guardian
is behind the times.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why do you say that?
The article was right on the money. Did you even bother to read it? If so, what do you disagree with?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Everyone is trying
to hold back hydrogen. However we already have cars buses and trucks on the road using it.

Have done for some time.

Vested interests don't like it, but it's already here.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Those are prototypes...
They are very limited in number, like the "concept" vehicles produced for show purposes, and they are constrained by the lack of an infrastructure to support fuel-cell powered vehicles.

Of course the technology exists. No dispute with that, but there are huge challenges in creating the hydrogen cleanly, and in creating a whole new infrastructure to supply fuel to vehicles. That is what the article was discussing.

I disagree with your view that "the vested interests don't like it". Actually, the vested interests are supporting fuel-cell technology, but for the wrong reasons. They know it is a long way from being viable, and it allows them to stall on alternatives such as conservation through higher fuel efficiency standards and hybrid vehicle technology.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. You must be eavesdropping
on the folks (auto execs) at the next table at your (Bloomfield Hills) Chuck Muirs.

I disagree with your view that "the vested interests don't like it". Actually, the vested interests are supporting fuel-cell technology, but for the wrong reasons. They know it is a long way from being viable, and it allows them to stall on alternatives such as conservation through higher fuel efficiency standards and hybrid vehicle technology.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I have no idea where Bloomfield Hills is located...
...or what a Chuck Muirs is, but the real interests of the "vested interests" are pretty easy to figure out. They aim to stall real progress on fuel efficiency technology until they have squeezed every last drop of oil out of the ground.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'll get in a plug or two
Bloomfield Hills is where the auto execs live (fancy suburb north of Detroit)

Chuck Muirs is a tony reataurant chain in the Metro Detroit area.

I was joking that you were describing one of the many "dirty little secrets of the auto industry."
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Thermodynamics will do more to "hold back" hydrogen than we ever will
To say nothing of cost and complexity of scale.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yup
Losses in generating the electricity to electrolyze the water.
"Over voltage" and I2R lossses in electrolyzing the water to get hydrogen.
Energy to "compress" the H2 for storage and transportation - that is not "free."
JT losses on decompression/expansion.
I2R losses and overvoltage in the fuel cell.

The is no such thing as "Jeremy Rifkin Free Energy" - just "Gibbs Free Energy" and "Helmholtz Free Energy"
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. "Plug In" Hybrid
Maybe it's a "step backwards" -- but it offers a lot of pluses.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. "Vested interests don't like it"
Edited on Sun Jun-26-05 09:00 PM by SimpleTrend
That's what I think, too.

Hydrogen Myths PDF:

Myth #12. Since renewables are currently too costly, hydrogen would have to be made from fossil fuels or nuclear energy.


Hydrogen would indeed be made in the short run, as it is now, mainly from natural gas (particularly in North America), but when the hydrogen is used in fuel cells, total carbon emissions per mile would be cut by about half using ordinary cars, or by ~80+% using 5vehicles.105 That’s a lot better than likely carbon reductions without hydrogen, and is a sound interim step while zerocarbon ways to produce hydrogen are being deployed.


Natural-gas prices would have to rise astronomically before electricity priced at just the running costs of existing nuclear power plants, plus electricity or hydrogen delivery costs, could compete with gas reformers sited at or near filling stations.106 If this did occur, it might be a constructive but temporary use for nuclear plants as long as they are allowed and economical to operate. (That will be until the next big accident or sabotage incident, or repairs become too costly, or the regulatory system becomes politically accountable, or historic exemption from major-accident liability is removed — whichever comes first.) However, since electricity is fungible and nuclear plants are generally dispatched whenever available, any nuclear electricity used to make hydrogen would normally result in the displacement of that baseload generation into the increased operation of existing coal-fired plants, thus reversing any climate benefits from using the hydrogen. And, of course, nuclear power is not the only major way to expand U.S. electricity generation, let alone the fastest or cheapest way. U.S. installed nuclear power capacity now produces less total electricity than could cost-effectively come, for example, just from the ~400 GW of high-grade windpower potential on Tribal lands in the Dakotas.107


Long-term, large-scale choices for making hydrogen are not limited to costly renewables-ornuclear electrolysis vs. carbon-releasing natural-gas reforming:


Reformers108 can use a wide range of biomass feedstocks which, if sustainably grown, don’t harm the climate. Some can actually help the climate, such as reforming methane from anerobic digestion of manure that would otherwise release methane (a greenhouse gas 23 times more potent per molecule than CO2 over a 100-year horizon) into the air. In some cases, it may also make sense to gasify municipal wastes to make hydrogen.


With biomass, waste, and fossil-fuel feedstocks, reformers can also be coupled with carbon sequestration. Since 1996, Statoil ASA, Norway’s state oil company, has been reforming natural gas from a North Sea field and reinjecting 1 MT/y of separated CO2 into the reservoir (also a common method of enhanced oil recovery). This promising method can yield three profit streams — from hydrogen, enhanced hydrocarbon recovery, and carbon sequestration. However, it is centralized and hence incurs hydrogen delivery costs.


Another Norwegian firm, Aker Kværner Group ASA, is scaling up a plasma-arc process that separates hydrocarbons (typically natural gas or oil) into 48 mass percent hydrogen, 10% steam, and 40% carbon black, which can be used (for tiremaking, metallurgy, etc.) or simply stored in an inert or reducing atmosphere. No CO2 is released, so this process, operating since 1992, can also be a backstop in case basic problems emerge with carbon sequestration.109

Some experimental methods of sequestration, notably those that capture the carbon in blocks of artificial rock without requiring extra energy (the reaction releases rather than requires heat), may be capable of scaling down to serve decentralized reformers.


Nor is it generally true that electricity from renewable sources is uncompetitively costly, leaving no climate-safe source to run electrolysis except nuclear power. Florida Power & Light now sells the output of its 100-MW windfarms for 2.5¢/kWh (net of the 1.7¢/kWh production tax credit meant to offset the larger subsidies to fossil and nuclear power). That unsubsidized ~4.2¢/kWh busbar price is the cheapest new bulk power source known, emits no carbon, and is driving the 30–40%/y expansion of global windpower, which exceeded 31 billion watts by the end of 2002. Windpower has lately added more than twice the global capacity each year that nuclear power did in the 1990s.110 Europe plans to get 22% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2010 — 2.4 times the 2002 U.S. fraction or the official 2010 U.S. forecast — and is investing €2.12 billion on renewable energy R&D during 2003–06, mainly for hydrogen-related renewable sources. Solar cells, though currently much costlier than windpower (they cost ~8–30¢/kWh delivered to the customer), are growing even faster, and thanks to several recent technical breakthroughs, could approach ~5¢/kWh delivered in a decade or two — about competitive with the delivered cost of just operating existing nuclear plants, and ~2–3 times cheaper than new ones.


a. A hydrogen economy would require the construction of many new coal and nuclear power stations (or perhaps nuclear fusion stations).



This fear felt by many environmentalists is unfounded. New nuclear plants would deliver electricity at about 2–3 times the cost of new windpower,111 5–10 times that of new gas-fired cogeneration in industry and buildings, and 10–30+ times that of efficient use, so they won’t be built, with or without a hydrogen transition. Any hydrogen produced from their electricity would be 4–7 times costlier in energy content, or about 2–3 times costlier per mile, than oil at the highest prices ever observed.112 Further increasing nuclear power’s cost disadvantage, often by as much as tenfold, are 207 “distributed benefits” of decentralized resources recently described by RMI.113 Under no conceivable circumstances would a market economy choose nuclear power.


ZeroCarbon Hydrogen Methods

A recent Australian discovery for solar cells that produce hydrogen instead of electricity:
http://www.unsw.edu.au/news/adv/articles/2004/aug/Solar_hydrogen.html

Older technology on Solar Hydrogen
http://www.hionsolar.com/n-hion96.htm


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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have a friend in Holland
Edited on Sun Jun-26-05 11:51 AM by CountAllVotes
and he drives a 6 cylinder Mitsubishi that runs on propane and something else. He gets great mileage and told me that 20% of the people in Holland have this type of car.

Why do we not have these here? Why do we not know of these types of cars here?

Links:

http://www.vialle.nl/

http://www.bkgas.nl/

translator from Dutch to English:

http://babel.altavista.com/

If anyone knows more about this technology please let me/us know. He said it cost 35 cents a liter for what it runs on and that it is very clean and efficient! We MUST DO THIS NOW!!!

:D

:kick:

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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Umm....where do you propose to get the propane?
Not from natural gas fields, I hope. Natural gas is peaking in many parts of the world. Shipping LNG is costly and dangerous.
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PFunk Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Actually China may say something about that...
Since if you go by the recent NOVA episode they are really pushing alternate fuel source vehicles to head-off the possible crisis which current fossil fuel cars cause. And they are looking strongly at hydrogen cars as a solution. Once they can work out a cost-effective way of doing it.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I think the point is, all hydrocarbons are running out.
We can make cars that run on propane, methane, diesel, or any other hydrocarbon, but it doesn't matter that much, if we're getting it all out of the ground. It's all going away.

Now, if we put in place enough renewable power (or nuclear), we can manufacture these same fuels, taking the carbon out of the atmosphere. This cycle would be carbon neutral, and a rather effective way to run an energy economy.

But we're very, very far from having that capacity, and meanwhile people are fooling around with changing from one fossil fuel to another, as if that's going to solve our problems.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-05 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. except for the ones that are not running out
The supply of easy to pump crude, is tight.
The potential supply of previously unwanted,
extra heavy crude, is very large.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Then again, potentially it's NOT large.
And if it is large, can the global economy run itself on expensive, low quality oil? And if it can, will we kill ourselves by burning it?
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