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HSBC Cuts U.S. Wind Power Forecast, Says Vestas `Best Positioned' in Slump

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 10:12 AM
Original message
HSBC Cuts U.S. Wind Power Forecast, Says Vestas `Best Positioned' in Slump
The London-based bank cut its U.S. forecast 14 percent to 6 gigawatts this year and by 33 percent to 5 gigawatts next year. It cited competition from cheap shale gas, uncertainty about federal clean energy legislation and a weak market for power purchase agreements, analyst James Magness said in an e-mailed note today.

A record amount of new orders leaves Vestas as the best- positioned wind-turbine manufacturer to gain market share, Magness wrote. Sales for the Randers, Denmark-based company will grow by about 25 percent next year, while the overall market grows 10 percent, he forecast.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-15/hsbc-cuts-u-s-wind-power-forecast-says-vestas-best-positioned-in-slump.html
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Alternative energy grows at the rate at which Big Energy desires it to grow
which is why it has remained essentially stagnate. :(
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. So much for that exponential growth we were promised
:shrug:
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The "NG will enable renewables" theory may not be working out so well either.
If cheap NG is acting as a competitor, then that's not enabling.

:shrug:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Exactly.
A technology is not revolutionary unless it takes the place of other technology regardless of efforts to keep the old technology around.

We won't have renewables as long as unclean fuels are still used, either through market interactions, or through the government allowing them to be used.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Actually it is working out exactly as envisioned
In spite of the economic slump renewables have continued in the state of sustained double digit growth (often approaching 50%/yr) they've been in for more than a decade. The move to ramp up natural gas is completely consistent with long term thinking that sees coal going by the wayside and the continued and accelerating deployment of various renewable technologies.

The "anti-renewable" technology attempting to replace coal isn't natgas, it is nuclear. But I'm happy to say that nuclear's opportunity to crowd out renewable energy is not looking that promising.

Sluggish Economy Curtails Prospects for Building Nuclear Reactors
By MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: October 10, 2010

WASHINGTON — Just a few years ago, the economic prognosis for new nuclear reactors looked bright. The prospect of growing electricity demand, probable caps on carbon-dioxide emissions and government loan guarantees prompted companies to tell the Nuclear Regulatory Commission that they wanted to build 28 new reactors.

The economic slump, which has driven down demand and the price of competing energy sources, and the failure of Congress to pass climate legislation has changed all that, at least for now.

Constellation Energy’s announcement on Saturday that it had reached an impasse with the federal government over the fee for a loan guarantee on a new reactor in Maryland is a sign of how much the landscape has been transformed.

Essentially, the Energy Department argued that Constellation’s project is so risky that the company must pay a high fee or provide other assurances of repayment if it wants the taxpayers to guarantee its construction loans. Constellation said the government’s demand was “unreasonably burdensome.”

The government is hardly the only one to question the economics of nuclear power right now. The...


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/11/business/energy-environment/11power.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&sq=constellation%20nuclear&st=cse&scp=3
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes, the fossil fuel industry envisions a future without clean energy for at least 30-40 years.
Just as they wanted.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Vestas...best-placed to gain market share in *the slump*
Leave it to our antirenewable nuclear "environmentalists" to try and spin a "slump" that results in a forecast of a 10% rate of growth.
The outlook for next year is particularly difficult to predict because of the global economic uncertainty that exists.

We see the same attempt to misleadingly frame the matter with their "discussion" of natural gas. Trying to turn one market forecast into a statement on the clear trends that governments around the world are trying to encourage is nothing short of nuclear mania induced madness.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Vestas calls itself in its company reports, the Vestas OIL, GAS and WIND company.
http://www.vestas.com/en/about-vestas/strategy/vision.aspx">Vestas, OIL, GAS and wind company.

They know what they are, even if mathematically illiterate purveyors of self delusion and indifference don't.

It's notable that this piece of shit dangerous fossil fuel company suffered huge losses in the middle of the decade for being required to meet five year warranties on their worthless hunks of metal.

Their "solution" to this problem with their reliability did not lead them to improve the crappy gearboxes on their subsidized garbage, but rather to reduce the warranty period from five years to two years.

It is interesting to note that the most transparently dishonest people are the first to accuse others of dishonesty.

Have a nice day.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. And good for Vestas for moving into wind - beats the hell out of losing their shirts with nukes
Edited on Sat Oct-16-10 09:19 PM by kristopher
Some people can read the writing on the wall:
CBO estimate on nuclear loan guarantees

For this estimate, CBO assumes that the first nuclear plant built using a federal loan guarantee would have a capacity of 1,100 megawatts and have associated project costs of $2.5 billion. We expect that such a plant would be located at the site of an existing nuclear plant and would employ a reactor design certified by the NRC prior to construction. This plant would be the first to be licensed under the NRC’s new licensing procedures, which have been extensively revised over the past decade.

Based on current industry practices, CBO expects that any new nuclear construction project would be financed with 50 percent equity and 50 percent debt. The high equity participation reflects the current practice of purchasing energy assets using high equity stakes, 100 percent in some cases, used by companies likely to undertake a new nuclear construction project. Thus, we assume that the government loan guarantee would cover half the construction cost of a new plant, or $1.25 billion in 2011.

CBO considers the risk of default on such a loan guarantee to be very high—well above 50 percent. The key factor accounting for this risk is that we expect that the plant would be uneconomic to operate because of its high construction costs, relative to other electricity generation sources. In addition, this project would have significant technical risk because it would be the first of a new generation of nuclear plants, as well as project delay and interruption risk due to licensing and regulatory proceedings.


Note the price - $2.5 billion was to be only for the first plant. Future plants were, according to the assumptions provided by the nuclear industry, expected to have lower costs as economy of scale resulted in savings.

In fact, since the report was written (2003), the estimated cost has risen to an average of about $8 billion.

Wonder what that does to the “risk is that … the plant would be uneconomic to operate because of its high construction costs, relative to other electricity generation sources”?

Does that risk diminish or increase when the price rises from $2.5 billion to $8 billion?


From a presentation by John Holdren.
The renewable option: Is it real?

SUNLIGHT: 100,000 TW reaches Earth’s surface (100,000 TWy/year = 3.15 million EJ/yr), 30% on land.
Thus 1% of the land area receives 300 TWy/yr, so converting this to usable forms at 10% efficiency would yield 30 TWy/yr, about twice civilization’s rate of energy use in 2004.


WIND: Solar energy flowing into the wind is ~2,000 TW.
Wind power estimated to be harvestable from windy sites covering 2% of Earth’s land surface is about twice world electricity generation in 2004.


BIOMASS: Solar energy is stored by photosynthesis on land at a rate of about 60 TW.
Energy crops at twice the average terrestrial photosynthetic yield would give 12 TW from 10% of land area (equal to what’s now used for agriculture).
Converted to liquid biofuels at 50% efficiency, this would be 6 TWy/yr, more than world oil use in 2004.

Renewable energy potential is immense. Questions are what it will cost & how much society wants to pay for environmental & security advantages.



What does he say about nuclear?

The nuclear option: size of the challenges

• If world electricity demand grows 2%/year until 2050 and nuclear share of electricity supply is to rise from 1/6 to 1/3...

–nuclear capacity would have to grow from 350 GWe in 2000 to 1700 GWe in 2050;

– this means 1,700 reactors of 1,000 MWe each.



• If these were light-water reactors on the once-through fuel cycle...

---–enrichment of their fuel will require ~250 million Separative Work Units (SWU);

---–diversion of 0.1% of this enrichment to production of HEU from natural uranium would make ~20 gun-type or ~80 implosion-type bombs.



• If half the reactors were recycling their plutonium...

---–the associated flow of separated, directly weapon - usable plutonium would be 170,000 kg per year;

---–diversion of 0.1% of this quantity would make ~30 implosion-type bombs.



• Spent-fuel production in the once-through case would be...

---–34,000 tonnes/yr, a Yucca Mountain every two years.


Conclusion: Expanding nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem is conceivable, but doing so will depend on greatly increased seriousness in addressing the waste-management & proliferation challenges.


Mitigation of Human-Caused Climate Change
John P. Holdren





Conclusion: Expanding nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem is conceivable, *but* doing so will depend on greatly increased seriousness in addressing the waste-management & proliferation challenges.


John P. Holdren is advisor to President Barack Obama for Science and Technology,
Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, and
Co-Chair of the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology...

Holdren was previously the Teresa and John Heinz Professor of Environmental Policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University,
director of the Science, Technology, and Public Policy Program at the School's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, and
Director of the Woods Hole Research Center.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holdren




Abstract here: http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/EE/article.asp?doi=b809990c

Full article for download here: http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/revsolglobwarmairpol.htm


Energy Environ. Sci., 2009, 2, 148 - 173, DOI: 10.1039/b809990c

Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security

Mark Z. Jacobson

Abstract
This paper reviews and ranks major proposed energy-related solutions to global warming, air pollution mortality, and energy security while considering other impacts of the proposed solutions, such as on water supply, land use, wildlife, resource availability, thermal pollution, water chemical pollution, nuclear proliferation, and undernutrition.

Nine electric power sources and two liquid fuel options are considered. The electricity sources include solar-photovoltaics (PV), concentrated solar power (CSP), wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, wave, tidal, nuclear, and coal with carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology. The liquid fuel options include corn-ethanol (E85) and cellulosic-E85. To place the electric and liquid fuel sources on an equal footing, we examine their comparative abilities to address the problems mentioned by powering new-technology vehicles, including battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs), and flex-fuel vehicles run on E85.

Twelve combinations of energy source-vehicle type are considered. Upon ranking and weighting each combination with respect to each of 11 impact categories, four clear divisions of ranking, or tiers, emerge.

Tier 1 (highest-ranked) includes wind-BEVs and wind-HFCVs.
Tier 2 includes CSP-BEVs, geothermal-BEVs, PV-BEVs, tidal-BEVs, and wave-BEVs.
Tier 3 includes hydro-BEVs, nuclear-BEVs, and CCS-BEVs.
Tier 4 includes corn- and cellulosic-E85.

Wind-BEVs ranked first in seven out of 11 categories, including the two most important, mortality and climate damage reduction. Although HFCVs are much less efficient than BEVs, wind-HFCVs are still very clean and were ranked second among all combinations.

Tier 2 options provide significant benefits and are recommended.

Tier 3 options are less desirable. However, hydroelectricity, which was ranked ahead of coal-CCS and nuclear with respect to climate and health, is an excellent load balancer, thus recommended.

The Tier 4 combinations (cellulosic- and corn-E85) were ranked lowest overall and with respect to climate, air pollution, land use, wildlife damage, and chemical waste. Cellulosic-E85 ranked lower than corn-E85 overall, primarily due to its potentially larger land footprint based on new data and its higher upstream air pollution emissions than corn-E85.

Whereas cellulosic-E85 may cause the greatest average human mortality, nuclear-BEVs cause the greatest upper-limit mortality risk due to the expansion of plutonium separation and uranium enrichment in nuclear energy facilities worldwide. Wind-BEVs and CSP-BEVs cause the least mortality.

The footprint area of wind-BEVs is 2–6 orders of magnitude less than that of any other option. Because of their low footprint and pollution, wind-BEVs cause the least wildlife loss.

The largest consumer of water is corn-E85. The smallest are wind-, tidal-, and wave-BEVs.

The US could theoretically replace all 2007 onroad vehicles with BEVs powered by 73000–144000 5 MW wind turbines, less than the 300000 airplanes the US produced during World War II, reducing US CO2 by 32.5–32.7% and nearly eliminating 15000/yr vehicle-related air pollution deaths in 2020.

In sum, use of wind, CSP, geothermal, tidal, PV, wave, and hydro to provide electricity for BEVs and HFCVs and, by extension, electricity for the residential, industrial, and commercial sectors, will result in the most benefit among the options considered. The combination of these technologies should be advanced as a solution to global warming, air pollution, and energy security. Coal-CCS and nuclear offer less benefit thus represent an opportunity cost loss, and the biofuel options provide no certain benefit and the greatest negative impacts.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Why would fossil fuel company move away from highly profitable fossil fuel?
Talk about failing Econ.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. They were never in fossil fuel, they started in engineering
NNadir was talking a load of complete bollocks about 'oil and gas'.

# 1898 - Vestas founded by H.S. Hansen, a blacksmith, in the small town of Lem in Denmark. He and his son, Peder Hansen, manufactured steel windows for industrial buildings.
# 1945 - Peder Hansen established the company VEstjyskSTålteknik A/S, whose name was shortened to Vestas. The new company, which initially made household appliances, started to produce agricultural equipment.
# 1970s - During the second oil crisis, Vestas began to examine the potential of the wind turbine as an alternative source of clean energy.
# 1979 - Vestas delivered the first wind turbines. The industry experienced a genuine boom at the start of the 1980s, but in 1986 Vestas was forced to suspend payments because the market in the United States was destroyed due to the expiration of a special tax legislation that provided advantageous conditions for the establishment of wind turbines.

http://www.vestas.com/en/about-vestas/profile/vestas-brief-history.aspx
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. No, you are very, very wrong; they have NEVER been a fossil fuel company
Vestas is a wind turbine company. It does not sell oil or gas. It never has. What it says, in one part of its website, is "Wind, Oil and Gas is Vestas’ vision, which expresses the ambition of making wind an energy source on a par with fossil fuels." So, they want to be as big as the huge oil and gas companies that supply so much of the world's energy. That's where the 'oil and gas' phrase comes from.

I realise that you're hoping no-one will check to see what your link says, because you're counting on them thinking "yet another boring piece of crap from NNadir, why bother looking?", but you are being highly misleading.

It is not a fossil fuel company. Your claim is incorrect, wrong and misleading. You have the gall to accuse others of dishonesty in the same post. You have no shame.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Somebody has an objective of prohibiting fair discussion and enlightenment in this forum
The methods were presented in college composition/speech class: choose a hot (controversial) topic, use loaded phrases, use personal attacks, et cetera, ad nauseum.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Damned dude, I didn't think even you were that low...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. "Difficult to predict." Which is why you've failed to give me wind projections in over a year.
You send me off to some corporate wind site and I spent days trying to find legitimate projections. They don't exist because the wind industry doesn't want to have to eat its hat.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I have no idea what you are blathering about.
Get a grip on reality.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Got any projections?
Tell you what, I'll go one further. Of the several greenpeace scenarios, which do you think is most likely?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. And I STILL have no effing idea what the hell you are talkiing about
I'm afraid I don't have the same monomania for you that you seem to have with me. Your remarks and observations wouldn't be worth paying any attention to at all if it were not for the fact that you actively seek to deceive on behalf of your love of the nuclear power industry.

So if you have some sort of bone in your craw about "projections" then state it clearly, and if it has any worth I'll address it.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm pointing out that you lack any data to back up half the shit you say.
The wind industry is not going to do squat to stem AGW.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. So you've been stalking me about some supposed dodge but when confronted...
Edited on Sun Oct-17-10 08:45 PM by kristopher
You run away with your tail between your legs.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I have no idea what *you're* talking about.
I haven't been "stalking" you at all, but if it makes you feel better to call it stalking when someone calls you on your BS, that's OK with me.
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