Edmunds Comparison Test: 2011 Chevrolet Volt vs. 2010 Toyota Prius PHV

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/comparison-test-2011-chevrolet-volt-vs-2010-toyota-prius-phv.html

Comparison Test: 2011 Chevrolet Volt vs. 2010 Toyota Prius PHV

Walking the Line Between Electricity and Gasoline

By Dan Edmunds, Director of Vehicle Testing | Published Dec 6, 2010

Electric car fans love the fact that gas stations are everywhere. It gives them plenty of chances to thumb their noses as they glide past in silence. They may enjoy their smug little ritual, but they're in the minority. The fact is, electric cars aren't very realistic for most people. They may get you to work and help you run a few errands, but their limited range means keeping a second gas-powered car around just in case.



The answer to this problem? Plug-in hybrids like the 2011 Chevrolet Volt and 2010 Toyota Prius PHV (plug-in hybrid vehicle). They combine two systems into one. They'll run on electricity when they can get it and keep on truckin' on gasoline, sans leash, when the batteries are spent.

But we must warn you; it takes more than the usual number-crunching to sort out what's what. When it comes to comparing plug-in hybrids like the Volt and the plug-in Prius, you can't merely focus on the gasoline side and assume the electricity is free.

The Real Cost of Plug-In Hybrids
We can measure what it takes to fill a battery just like we can write down the numbers at the gas pump. With that in mind, we tested each car's all-important electric range and the cost to refill their batteries. We used both the garden-variety 120-volt "level 1" wall outlets and fancy-pants 240-volt "level 2" chargers.

And when the juice ran out we kept on driving. Not just anywhere, though. We measured their gasoline fuel-efficiency by running a carefully calculated driving loop that was representative of typical driving.

We did this because observed electricity and gasoline consumption is a crucial missing piece of the puzzle and because, frankly, we're geeks like that. But if you're someone who's not so interested in all those hard-to-understand numbers, you might not be Chevy Volt or Toyota Prius PHV material.

FULL story and video at link.

[DissedByBush]

1. An all-electric would easily do it for me

For 99% of my travel.

If I could afford one.

[txlibdem]

4. Nissan Leaf is cheaper than the GM Volt

All-electric for me, that's for sure.

I am smart enough to know how many miles I drive in a day and that the Nissan Leaf or the Mitsubishi iMiev or the Coda EV (made in China, yecch!) would easily provide far more miles than I ever need to go.

If I needed more miles than those 3 could provide, I'd go with the converted GM Equinox or Saturn Sky/Pontiac Solstice from http://www.ampelectricvehicles.com/

It's time we all said goodbye to oil forever! We don't need it, many of us just think we do...

[DissedByBush]

6. We do need oil for a while

The problem boils down to a means of making power portable and economical.

Oil is still the most economical. Batteries to provide any kind of range are very expensive, and then you still have to pay for the power to fill them, and you have to replace them occasionally.

For hybrids, a recent study showed of all those on the market only the high-end Mercedes hybrid at $100,000+ is cheaper in the long run than its gas-only counterpart.

The Leaf and Volt are both far more expensive for me than a gas car.

But like much of automotive technology, I'll let those who can afford it buy it now. I'll buy it when it gets more commonplace and cheaper.

Especially used. I don't buy new cars. That is a great way of helping the environment because it's essentially a re-use of the energy and pollution dumped into creating the car in the first place.

[Nihil]

2. K & R and a guess ...

> We used both the garden-variety 120-volt "level 1" wall outlets and
> fancy-pants 240-volt "level 2" chargers.

Is it fair to assume that countries that have 240v mains supply as
standard, the "level 2" or "fast" charger will be the only option?

:shrug:

[TheWraith]

3. Not likely.

Charging speed isn't just about the voltage, it's about the current. In the US, 240 volt lines are designed for high-draw applications like clothes dryers and water heaters. So they're designed to push a LOT more energy through the line.

240 volt standard lines in other countries, however, are not designed to do that. They'll almost certainly have their own "level 1" type charger available for standard household current.

[txlibdem]

5. Maybe if you have an older home but other than that you should have no problems

My home has an electric oven so I know I already have the necessary electrical service. There is also a 240 electric dryer plug but we use a gas clothes dryer. It's neat that they included both, though.

Level 2 chargers, which can recharge a pure electric vehicle overnight, require a dedicated 240-volt circuit with a capacity of at least 30 amps. Installing such a circuit requires a licensed electrician. But the cost of the circuit varies wildly. Some homes may already have a 240-volt, 30-amp circuit to run a clothes dryer or an electric oven. And some of these may have a 200-amp panel with enough room to install another powerful circuit. Even then, it's still going to cost homeowners to have an electrician pull wiring to your garage or driveway for a new circuit. The farther the charger needs to be from the panel, the more it will cost. (Remember, you can't use the existing dryer circuit; the charger needs its own.)

Many older homes with only 60-100 amp supply may need a panel upgrade to install a 240-volt circuit, which can cost several thousand dollars.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/09/nissan-leaf-electric-car-charger-installation-cost-proves-shocking.html
(Talk to your electrician about the 60 or 100 amp supply issue, since you'll be charging overnight when no clothes drying will be happening there should not be a conflict. A good electrician will tell you if you need to upgrade the service.)

The Nissan Leaf will limit the charge to 3.3 kilowatts at 220 volts, which is (unless my electronics class memory is failing) 15 Amps:

The LEAF will take 8 hours to charge its 24 kWh battery (note: 8 hours if you drain the battery down to zero) even when a Level 2 charger is rated at an average of 6 kW, although it can get up to 14.4 kW. At 6 kW you’d expect a 24 kWh battery to take 4 hours to fully charge. However, as Perry explained it, the LEAF battery will be throttled by its onboard Battery Management System to 3.3 kW… hence the approximately 8 hour charge time.

So, even if you get that Level 2 charge station installed in your garage and you max it out at 240 Volts and 60 Amps, you won’t be able to cut the charge time. So, if money’s a concern and it would cost you more to do the high end installation, you might want to settle for the cheaper lower voltage, lower amperage installation. Your LEAF won’t know the difference.

http://gas2.org/2010/05/27/nissan-leaf-will-include-fast-charge-capability-and-emergency-charging-cable-at-launch/

(Note that what I think he's saying is that a 220 volt, 30 Amp circuit would suffice since it's only going to draw 15 Amps anyway...)
*** again, the 8 hour charging time assumes you've drained the battery all the way down to zero; you've just driven 100 miles. That's not likely to happen and a lithium ion battery does not like to be taken down to zero (so limit that kind of thing to emergencies).

If you have a hobby built (DIY) electric car, the charger will allow you to manually set the limits for charging voltage and current. Make sure that you never exceed what the manufacturer of your batteries and/or Battery Management System recommend. You'll save some time each night but might shorten the life of your batteries (ouch!!!).

[Nihil]

9. OK - thanks for that (and to Wraith BTW)

An extra 15A circuit wouldn't be a problem but I'd have to check
as to whether our board could support an additional 30A circuit.

(It's largely academic at the moment as I'm happy with our 5-year-old
standard Prius and haven't got the money to change it at the moment
anyway ... but I'm still allowed to dream!)

:hi:

[PavePusher]

7. Screw those tubs.

Where's my god damn Li-ion EV1 that can do over 100 miles? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Or maybe a Tesla that average Americans can afford?

[DissedByBush]

8. We need a breakthrough in energy storage

The Tesla is basically a Lotus Elise with an electric motor.

That's about $60,000 worth of car with $40,000 worth of laptop batteries. I've never owned a car that cost as much as the batteries in this thing.

Honda's hydrogen seems to be doing fairly well though. The Honda FCX Clarity is on the road now in limited numbers and has normal car performance from hydrogen without the half-ton battery weight. The $140,000 production cost will come down drastically with volume production as opposed to electric vehicles where the battery price won't come down much absent some unforeseen technological breakthrough.

I want one. Honda is growing the number of refueling stations as it grows the number of cars available. Full production is expected around 2018.

[txlibdem]

10. Don't fall for the hydrogen hoax.

Hydrogen was trotted out by Bush as a convenient excuse for killing the electric car, aided and abetted by the auto corps and a traitor on the board at CARB. Over $1 Billion has been spent on hydrogen research and it is no closer to production than it was 20 years ago.

The only thing hydrogen is good for is as a photo op for lazy politicians who don't want to tackle the real problems: getting us off of oil and making batteries with greater range at far less cost so we can all afford electric cars.

As for the cost coming down, I don't think so. Fuel cells still cost between $50,000 to $150,000 (the lower cost one only good for use as a hybrid because of its low power output). What's the point of putting a hugely expensive H2 fuel cell into a hybrid when we've had batteries for that since 1995. The cost has gone from $1 million to $150,000 over that 20 years of research. Hydrogen looks like it might be made ready to begin production right about the same time as we run out of oil. Funny coincidence, no?

[Kolesar]

11. With ya' ... eom

[DissedByBush]

12. The Honda example shows that false

Honda's cost per car was a million only a few years ago, now down to around $140,000. Volume production will solve the affordability problem, unlike batteries.

For the portability of power equation, hydrogen packs more power into a smaller and lighter space, and it can be refueled in a fraction of the time as electricity.

Environmental? Batteries are not very environmentally friendly to produce, and you have to replace them every several years. Very bad.

Hydrogen's problem is only fuel availability.

But then batteries have that same problem as you need massive amperage outlets to charge these things in any decent amount of time. The Tesla uses 70 amps at 240 volts to charge in 3.5 hours vs. 5 minutes for the Honda. Older houses usually have only 60 amps. Most modern houses have 100 amps, leaving little room to run anything else while charging the car. You'd need to get one of those 200 amp upgrades.

In volume, utilities are already saying their infrastructure can't support massive ownership of electric cars. There's just not enough juice in the grid.

Hydrogen hybrid? I'm thinking pure hydrogen. Honda's 134 horsepower sedan already goes the standard ~300 miles per tank. It does this without needing to haul around a half-ton battery or have an overly-complex gas burning hybrid arrangement.

No closer? Honda is currently leasing 50 of them in Southern California where hydrogen fueling stations are available (and more in other countries) and plans full production by 2018.

Honda Japan is not related to any convenient Bush excuses. GM's pathetic attempts may be, but that's just GM.

[txlibdem]

13. Any good religion must be clung to desperately, I guess

Your religion, it seems, is The Cult of The Hydrogen Hoax. I obviously won't dissuade you nor even dent your fanatical devotion to the creed. I respect your opinion, I just don't share it.

But let's talk facts. Hydrogen cars have been researched since 1979. Over $1 Billion has been spent on bringing their costs down, on bringing them to market -- FOR SALE. So after all that time, effort and MONEY has beens spent, how many fuel cell cars can you walk into your local dealer and purchase today? Aaaaaaah, ZERO. How many are produced for people to lease? Can you walk into your local Honda dealer and sign the papers to lease a Honda fuel cell vehicle today? Aaaaaah, NO.

Let's ask those same questions of the electric car, shall we? Can you buy an electric car today? Why, yes. Yes you can. You have a choice between the Nissan Leaf, the Chevy Volt, the Coda Sedan, the AMP Equinox or Solstice or Sky, and then you can always break into the piggy bank and purchase a Tesla Roadster.

Well, well, well. It seems like $1 Billion doesn't buy what it used to, eh? These electric vehicles were developed almost entirely by private money, the government has only been giving any help to electric cars and batteries since 2008. Now that's interesting...

Hydrogen sucks on the government teet for decades and produces nothing for sale while the electric car has been almost entirely funded by private companies and is producing cars you can buy TODAY. On December 11th the first Nissan Leaf was delivered to a gentleman in San Francisco, with tens of thousands to follow in the coming months.

[DissedByBush]

14. Religion?

I'm apparently seeing the "I hate hydrogen" religion.

[txlibdem]

15. No, you're seeing the One Billion Dollars flushed down the toilet in search of profitable H2

Hydrogen is a red herring whose sole purpose is to keep Americans addicted to oil until the last drop is pumped out of the ground.

I choose freedom from oil. You make your own choice. My next car will be 100% electric, maybe
Nissan Leaf
Mitsubishi iMiev
Coda Sedan
AMP equinox
AMP sky
AMP solstice

In 2012, my choices will also include the Ford Focus EV.

or, if my current vehicle lasts longer than I think it will, then an all-electric car from VW, Chrysler, GM, Audi, Toyota, Honda, etc.

I love that all these electric vehicles will have cost the American tax payers practically nothing compared to hydrogen, which soaks up tax payer dollars like a sponge with nothing but a few outrageously expensive leased vehicles to show for it. No thanks, hydrogen. I'll be perfectly happy with my electric vehicle.

[DissedByBush]

16. How many billions to solar? n/t

[txlibdem]

17. Are you trying to suggest that you can't purchase solar panels today?

My gosh, your facts are just twisted like a pretzel. I feel sorry for you. Let me summarize the difference.

Over $1 Billion with NOTHING out of it. That's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell cars.

Who cares how much went to solar: you can buy it today or any day you choose and the price keeps going down year after year. That is the difference between a technology that works (solar) and a fantasy that will never materialize (Hydrogen and fuel cell cars).

[DissedByBush]

18. Solar took its time to mature

It isn't even very efficient yet, and billions are still being poured in.

You just have a hatred of hydrogen, preferring heavy, toxic batteries.

[txlibdem]

19. I can put enough solar on my roof to power an EV for $10,000

Wasted billions versus a few billion that has paid off with successful products that are available for purchase just about everywhere. And just as with the electric car, solar has not been draining tax payer dollars all of its existence like hydrogen hoax has.

Someone needs to take an economics course. They're cheap at your local community college. I highly recommend it for you.

[DissedByBush]

20. And the tech for solar started in the 50s

A half century of subsidies, grants and tax breaks gets you that solar for $10,000, which in itself is the reduced subsidy/tax break price to you.

Most solar still isn't at the lifetime break-even for true cost.

[txlibdem]

21. Hydrogen was discovered by Henry Cavendish in 1766

So what's your point? It's been almost 150 years and we STILL haven't found a low cost way to use hydrogen to power our cars and homes. How much funding has research into Hydrogen received since 1766???

[DissedByBush]

22. The Sun was discovered a few million years ago

And only in the last 50 years have we found not-so-low-cost ways to use it to power homes.

You must have stock in solar or battery companies to hate the alternatives so much.

[txlibdem]

23. No I just hate idiot politicians who line corporate pockets with giveaways of my tax dollars

That is all Hydrogen is and all it will ever be. Until we run out of oil, perhaps, then research will begin in earnest.

Hydrogen is just another waiting game to keep us addicted to oil while the most profitable companies in the history of mankind continue to pollute the planet and rake in obscene profits.

[DissedByBush]

24. Then we should stop the solar subsidies

And the hybrid and electric car subsidies.

That's billions going into the pockets of corporations with the government's help.

[txlibdem]

25. Sure, right after we end all the subsidies for oil, gas, coal, plastic, pharma, etc.

Don't gripe about a couple of years of tiny subsidies for green jobs and stuff that we DO want. Start wondering why we're still subsidizing oil: THE MOST PROFITABLE corporations in the history of the world! Start wondering why we should subsidize coal when that is what is going to end up killing us all! Start wondering why we should have natural gas subsidies (well, maybe these should be ended after coal and oil because nat gas is far less polluting than either of those).

Why don't you google the free use of public lands for oil and gas exploration. Check into the environmental rules that get bent or forgotten in favor of the coal industry: mining and coal power plants both.

[DissedByBush]

26. Change of subject, but true

Bribes and pork are the only reason I can think we subsidize oil.

[txlibdem]

27. You got it, that's probably 90% of it

I'll grant the last 10% as an honest desire to keep the people in fossil fuels related jobs.