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John Michael Greer identifies the beginning of catabolic collapse in the USA

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 08:29 AM
Original message
John Michael Greer identifies the beginning of catabolic collapse in the USA
The onset of catabolic collapse

The central idea of catabolic collapse is that human societies pretty consistently tend to produce more stuff than they can afford to maintain. What we are pleased to call “primitive societies” – that is, societies that are well enough adapted to their environments that they get by comfortably without huge masses of cumbersome and expensive infrastructure – usually do so in a fairly small way, and very often evolve traditional ways of getting rid of excess goods at regular intervals so that the cost of maintaining it doesn’t become a burden. As societies expand and start to depend on complex infrastructure to support the daily activities of their inhabitants, though, it becomes harder and less popular to do this, and so the maintenance needs of the infrastructure and the rest of the society’s stuff gradually build up until they reach a level that can’t be covered by the resources on hand.

That America is a prime candidate for catabolic collapse seems tolerably clear at this point, though I’m sure plenty of people can find reasons to argue with that assessment. It’s considered impolite to talk about America’s empire nowadays, but the US troops currently garrisoned in 140 countries around the world are not there for their health, after all, and it requires a breathtaking suspension of disbelief to insist that this global military presence has nothing to do with the fact that the 5% of our species that live in this country use around a quarter of the world’s total energy production and around a third of its raw materials and industrial products. The United States has an empire, then, and it’s become an extraordinarily expensive empire to maintain; the fact that the US spends as much money on its military annually as all the other nations on Earth put together is only one measure of the maintenance cost involved.

That being the case, the question is simply when to place the first wave of catabolism in America – the point at which crises bring a temporary end to business as usual, access to real wealth becomes a much more challenging thing for a large fraction of the population, and significant amounts of the national infrastructure are abandoned or stripped for salvage. It’s not a difficult question to answer, either. The date in question is 1974.

That was the year when the industrial heartland of the United States, a band of factories that reached from Pennsylvania and upstate New York straight across to Indiana and Michigan, began its abrupt transformation into the Rust Belt. Hundreds of thousands of factory jobs, the bread and butter of America’s then-prosperous working class, went away forever, and state and local governments went into a fiscal tailspin that saw many basic services cut to the bone and beyond. Meanwhile, wild swings in markets for agricultural commodities and fossil fuels, worsened by government policy, pushed most of rural America into a depression from which it has never recovered. In the terms I’ve suggested in this post, the US catabolized most of its heavy industry, most of its family farms, and a good half or so of its working class, among other things. It also set in motion the process of catabolizing one of the most important resources it had left at that time, the oil reserves of the Alaska North Slope. That oil could have been eked out over decades to cushion the transition to a low-energy future; instead, it was pumped and burnt at a breakneck pace in order to deal with the immediate crisis.

I disagreed vehemently with Greer a few years ago, because his concept of catabolic collapse was far too benign for my apocalyptic frame of mind at the time. I’ve since largely come around to his way of thinking, though I still remain skeptical that the coming restructuring of our civilization will take anything like the 400 years it took the Romans. We have technology that allows us to do everything faster these days, and that includes collapse.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 08:39 AM
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1. " far too benign for my apocalyptic frame of mind"
'nuf said.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You left out three vital words.
'nuf said.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I love you too, GG!


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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. We all change our minds about things as we learn more.
So far I've changed my mind about the perils of peak oil, the importance of overpopulation relative to overconsumption, the probability of the imminent catastrophic collapse of civilization, the risks posed by atmospheric CO2 and my attitude towards nuclear power.

It's been a good couple of years. :thumbsup:
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
5. your last sentence:
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guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. There is still hope
Edited on Fri Jan-21-11 10:30 AM by guardian
the dream lives on... DOOM DOOM DOOM.


The doomers now worship global warming instead of the The Alpha-Omega Bomb





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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. so sour
this is what you've got now hm ?
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. While we do have the tech...
doesn't mean we have the willingness to do it.

since the political conversation is basically controlling the issue, it will be more about convincing the unconvinced and the uninformed about the speed as to how fast we need to act.

There are always solutions, but generally speaking, the longer we wait, those same solutions become more and more difficult to achieve.

Rarely in the history of civilization have humans properly or adequately prepared for the future and if they do, it is also very rare that the planning goes beyond 5 years.

Long term thinking, in regards to saving society, is a political gideons knot.
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. The sky is falling!
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Well, not so much. It's more like The history is cycling!
We're looking at long-term cycles from the very short point of view of a single human lifetime.

When we read about the "fall" of Rome, for example, it's kind of a misnomer, because in any given lifespan back then, things looked "normal" -- maybe a little different normal than Grampa's normal, but it's not like everybody was dropping everything and ducking for cover to escape falling shards of empire.

Systems rise, systems decline, history breathes -- inhale, exhale. American exceptionalism doesn't exempt us from these cycles, much as we might wish otherwise.

Right now, it happens that we're at an inflection point, between inhale and exhale, and Greer and others find it instructive to gather the particulars of what factors are shaping our present cycle, using previous ones for comparison.

For industrialism, the main factor is the decline of its defining resource, petroleum. There are other factors, of course, but they tend to be interrelated.

So, interpreting it as mere alarmism is a little misleading, because this stuff just doesn't happen that fast. Granted, a lot of people first exposed to the realities of peak oil can get very nervous and over-mobilized about the implications -- but humans will surely be adept at finding their "new normal" in good time, even if, as GG suggests, it's likely to be a tad more frequent nowadays than it was back then.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
9. How is this the same or different than
1) planned obsolescence, or 2) the fact that for many goods in the marketplace it's cheaper to buy something new than it is to fix a broken old thing? :shrug:

TIA. :hi:
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. My take is that
Edited on Fri Jan-21-11 12:56 PM by GliderGuider
It's more like burning the furniture for heat. The furniture may be old, but once you burn it, it's gone. The entropy of the entire system increases. With planned obsolescence the plan is for it to wear out so you replace it with something new. In catabolic collapse there is less new stuff, so some discarded or broken stuff isn't replaced. As a result the overall level of civilization declines over time.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. BFD - all we have to do is invade Canada and take what we want
problem solved

:D
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh yeah? Tough luck, we're ready for ya...
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-11 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Interesting year, 1974
I've always pegged 1974 as the actual end of the era we know as "the sixties." Having begun with the death of JFK and the escalation of the Vietnam adventure into a war, it ended with the resignation of Nixon and the Arab oil embargo.

The latter brought our loss of innocence about energy vulnerability due to petroleum. That was also shortly after the peak of North American oil production. In 1974, in addition to the oil shock, we also saw the beginnings of the "last-gasp oil" reprieves/band-aids that Greer analyzes in this piece: the North Slope field started in the US, and the UK had its North Sea motherload.

It had the effect of hitting the snooze button for us and gave us the likes of Reagan, Thatcher, SUVs and the rise of "free-market" globalism.

Interesting to note that once North Slope oil started flowing in 1977 (they were building the pipeline before that), production peaked there only two years later. We "burn the furniture" mighty fast in these parts!

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. It's close to my estimate of 1972 as "peak civilization"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=235474&mesg_id=236107

bananas Mar-13-10

16. We reached peak civilization around 1972

How do you measure the extent of civilization?
One metric would be the distance it extends to.
We sent people to the moon on a regular basis from 1969-1972.
Another metric is the civility and humanity of the justice system.
The US death penalty was declared unconstitutional between 1972-1976.
So the peak was around 1972, plus or minus a few years.

That doesn't mean civilization won't eventually surpass that, I hope it will.
That peak was largely driven by the cold war.


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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. No way -- we didn't even have digital watches yet.
:hi:
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guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Naw, your metrics are all wrong
Edited on Mon Jan-24-11 11:46 AM by guardian
THIS is how you define peak civilization...the worlds biggest hamburger. Conclusive proof that peak civilization occurred in 2010.

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. 2017
six years from now, assuming that current trends continue, Chindia will be consuming ALL available oil in the market. None left for others.

Naturally, that means the current trends cannot continue for six years or less. That would seem to imply that the denial about the end of growth economy is going to evaporate relatively soon.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I take your point, here’s a quantitative look at the situation in Chindia


The sum of China and India’s actual consumption and production figures from 1965 to 2009 (from the BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2010) was projected out to 2020 using a third-order polynomial.

The projections show flat production at 5 mbpd, with consumption rising from 12 mbpd today to 22 mbpd in 2020. The gap that needs to be filled by imports rises from 7 mbpd today to 17 mbpd in 2020.

The world export market currently contains about 44 mbpd of crude oil, and is showing signs of entering a decline. The 17 mbpd of Chindia imports represents 38% of today’s global export market, and possibly 50% or more of the smaller export market in 2020.

Your point remains unchallenged. It’s inconceivable that such a situation could occur, so economic growth as we have known it may be all but over.
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