New power line almost ready at Japan nuke plant

[FBaggins]

TOKYO (AP) -- A nearly completed new power line could restore electric cooling systems in Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear plant, its operator said Thursday, raising hopes of easing the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Naoki Tsunoda said the new power line to Fukushima Dai-ichi is almost complete. Officials plan to try it "as soon as possible" but he could not say when.

Meanwhile, conditions at the plant appeared to worsen Wednesday, with white smoke pouring from the reactor complex and a dangerous surge in radiation levels forcing workers to retreat for hours from their struggle to cool the overheating reactors.


http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=NDBIS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-16-15-20-59

[leveymg]

1. Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but the pumps and pipes in #1-4 are melted

and probably inoperable.

Might help with the rods stored in the pool in the building behind #3, and reactors #5 and 6.

[MineralMan]

2. And you know this piece of information exactly how?

I've been following this story closely, and I've seen no such reports. So, where did you find out that those pumps and pipes are melted? What's your source of information. Or do you even know where those pumps are located at these plants? My guess is that you do not. Hint: They're not in the containment building.

[Wilms]

4. I'd just figure the pipes were busted in the explosions.

Were the motors previously swamped? Not sure how quick they'd dry, or what the effect of tsunami water would be on them.

[FBaggins]

7. Some things are bound to be broken.

And there's a chance that connecting power won't work right away.

But there are at least a dozen important things that aren't going right because of power loss. If half of them work again, it's a big plus.

[MineralMan]

14. I'm pretty sure they checked all that before running these emergency

power lines. Unless the Japanese power people are completely incompetent, that's what they'd do.

[FBaggins]

25. There's simply no way to know for sure

Until they flip the switch.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Most likely, the situation has changed since that plan was put into action.

Any one of the explosions could have damaged pump equipment. So, while the power may soon be available, the pumps may no longer be.

Still, I welcome some good news.

BBC indicated that reactor three had damaged pumps and valves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12724953

Other news sources described 3 of 4 pump systems were damaged in the reactor 3 explosion.
Who knows though, we'll see soon, hopefully.

[MineralMan]

10. No reason for them to be busted, or melted. The explosion blew the

exterior panels of the containment building off. The pipes are really, really strong stuff. As for the pumps, if they were destroyed, they wouldn't be bothering restoring the power. You see, you've made a statement for which you had no evidence. The pumps and pipes aren't melted, but you said they were, even though you had no knowledge of that at all. Then, when you got called on your erroneous statement, you tried to come up with something else. You don't know anything about that plant or its pipes or pumps, do you?

You see, the thing is that making statements based on nothing is just plain wrong. You don't know anything, but you post some crap that is untrue, and force someone like me to call you on it. Wouldn't it have been easier just to say nothing than to tell a story that you know nothing about?

What were you thinking? There are no melted pumps, motors, or pipes. If they were destroyed, do you think anyone would be running power lines through a disaster zone to them? Really?

Use some common sense, get some facts, then write. The only facts in evidence are that these power lines are almost complete. That says to me that they know that the rest of the stuff is still operable. They're there. You're not. They know about the equipment. You do not.

[Wilms]

18. Did I say melted? No.

That was another poster.

Did they begin efforts to repair power lines well before the explosions? I hope so. Do they have much of an idea of the extent of the destruction given ALL the circumstances? I wouldn't expect that. Should they nevertheless attempt to restore power? Sure. Will it help? Give it a few hours. We'll see.

[MineralMan]

21. You are correct. That was another poster. Still, my assumption is

that people on the scene do know whether the cooling systems are intact. If they were not intact, or they didn't know, I can't imagine that they'd have completed this power line installation. It's a major deal and there are many needs right now for electrical power, all across Japan. I don't think they would have continued unless they had good assurance that it would be worthwhile. It's not like running extension cords.

My apologies for the misdirected reply.

[Wilms]

24. I'll bet the people on the scene barely know.

And I ain't blaming them. The situation they're under suggests that the ability to assess is, understandably, limited.

A few days ago, when rolling blackouts were planned, I wondered why. I figured, correctly, that the earthquake and tsunami ungraciously did a lot of load shedding. Next we hear that the utility was surprised that demand was not as high as expected. Duh.

[joshcryer]

44. I think this news tells us one thing, the electrical infrastructure was wiped out by the tsunami.

You can see a lot of devastation in the before and after pics, but I honestly didn't think the apparent electrical stuff that was by the water was in any way necessary for the operation of the plant, I am beginning to think otherwise. Bad design decision if in fact the tsunami hit critical electrical infrastructure like that.

[Wilms]

60. Nuclear reactors need lots of water, and electricity to pump it.

Not quite as much when the reactor is "shut down", but still a lot.

And you also need it for the spent fuel pools.

Absolutely reasonable design, as long as nothing goes wrong.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. Several news sources, including the BBC have reported explosion damage to pumps.

However, that does not necessarily mean it is true.

We shall see.

[leveymg]

13. Here are the photos and diagrams of the MKI cooling system

You can see that the external cooling water pipes aren't armoured, like the reactor core itself. The pumps may have survived the fires and blast if they were far enough on the other side of the outer wall, assuming that wasn't breached by the hydrogen explosion. Who's going to go inside to fix those inlet pipes?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/BWR_Mark_I_Containment,_cutaway.jpg/637px-BWR_Mark_I_Containment,_cutaway.jpg

[MineralMan]

16. I take it that you've never seen a nuclear power plant.

Those pipes are far stronger than you can believe. And the pumps are not in the containment building at all. It's all designed to withstand incredible stresses. Again, as I said before, they wouldn't be running these power lines if they didn't believe the equipment would work. Common sense - something the Japanese have in large quantities, but which seems in short supply in some other places.

[leveymg]

17. Have you? But, I can read a schematic and have an understanding of the effects that

overblast pressures have on water pipes that have been heated to 1000 degrees (or so). What's the impact of heat on temper strength of steel? The pipes don't have to melt to lose strength.

[MineralMan]

19. Actually, yes, I have. I watched the Diablo Canyon plant being

built, starting with day 1. I visited the site throughout its construction as part of an intervening group that was working to keep it from being built, as one of the people with engineering knowledge. We inspected the construction many times, so I got a very close look at how such a plant is constructed and at the materials that went into it. I pored over engineering diagrams and specifications for everything, including pumps and pipes and more. What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. The main cooling pipes are amazingly strong and overdesigned to a degree you cannot imagine. They would not be damaged in the explosion that took place in the outer containment building. The pumps are not in the containment building, and are far larger than any pumps you have probably ever seen.

Further, my comment about the Japanese not building these power lines if the equipment were not operable still stands. Why would they go to the enormous effort of constructing these lines? Again, you don't appear to understand the scale involved here, nor the amount of power required to run such equipment. I do. You are talking about things you do not understand and making statements that you do not have the knowledge to make.

I am, and have always been, an opponent of the use of nuclear energy to generate power. That does not mean that I do not have a great deal of respect for the engineering that goes into a nuclear power plant.

[leveymg]

34. I have tremendous respect for large-scale engineering and the intelligence that goes into it

I also know that this event was guaranteed not to happen, but it did, despite that engineering expertise.

Just like the Titanic.

BTW: I have seen comparable scale and type engineering aboard Navy ships and construction sites. I'll repeat what someone else said, please try not to be so obviously condescending. It weakens the effectiveness of the argument that you are trying to make, that is by and large good and reasonable.

[Duende azul]

28. You don't have any evidence for your assumptions.

Let me make an assumption too:
The japanese haven`t told you personally why they are bringing in the power lines.
So your claims are as substantiated as the ones of the other posters - not more, not less.

And it would be a good guess they may need power lines for a lot of purposes, even if the pumps don't work. They have to give it shot.
Under those circumstances they have to try everything.

So let´s wait and see and try to be less condescending.

[Statistical]

48. Important fact on the MK I the pumps aren't in the reactor building they are in the turbine bldg.

The irony is that this is considered unsafe as the generator building is less hardened. In this case it may end up saving the plant.

Take a look at this photo.



The small squares at the top are the reactors (#1 to #4).
The larger rectangles under them are the turbine buildings (also holds control rooms, machine shops, and non critical systems.

The inferior design of the MK I *might* have saved the pumps. Radiation would also be much lower in the turbine building so I would assume the workers did at least a brief inspection before beginning a 5 day job to rig temporary power lines to the plant.

The diagram also shows only a single "loop" but BWR MK I has two primary loops and numerous backup loops. As long as at least one loop is functional they should be able to get water flow going.

The single most pressing issue though is the spent fuel pond #4. There is no fuel in the actual reactor #4 so maybe the can salvage those pumps to redirect water to the pool.

[thereismore]

5. They are trying. I am thankful. nt

[gateley]

20. +1 I'm not sure I wouldn't have run for the hills. Brave, brave souls. nt

[Statistical]

47. The explosion in #4 was relatively small and there is no fuel in the reactor.

The pipes to the cooling pond are inside primary containment (concrete). There is a good chance that they survived.

Now #1 & #3 I agree they likely are toast. Still power gives them more options.

Number #2 is also questionable. There are backup pumps and pipes. Reactors have a lot of redundancy. A lot would depend on their location.

[Poll_Blind]

3. Fingers crossed for millions!

PB

[drm604]

6. I'm skeptical about the state of the pumping equipment and pipes

but I'm hoping that this works.

[FBaggins]

11. Me too.

But as I said above. There are lots of things that could help that currently lack power. If even a FEW of them come back on line, things improve.

Would be a nice change.

[drm604]

27. Exactly.

They have to try.

[MineralMan]

12. Why are you skeptical. Do you suppose that they ran these power

lines through a disaster area without checking to see whether the equipment was operable? Would you do that? Do you think the Japanese are stupid? Of course they checked to see if the equipment would operate if it got power. Then they rushed to complete the new power lines. Do you have any actual information about the condition of those pumps and piping? No? Then you must think the Japanese are idiots. I don't share that view.

[bananas]

22. Of course they would run the lines without checking

They're in a desperate situation.

[drm604]

26. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder but try to calm down.

No, I do not think the Japanese are idiots. I'm tempted to say a bunch a things that you must think, but I won't do it because I have no idea what you think and, unlike you, I won't claim otherwise.

Now, to answer your questions: Maybe they can't get to the pipes to check them. Maybe they have no way of telling for sure if the pumps will work until they have power to test them. Maybe they're running the power lines in the hopes that they'll work. That doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable thing to do, especially considering how dire the situation appears to be.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. The explosions have occurred over a span of time.

As has the stringing of new power lines.

What was there to be powered when they started may no longer be. I hope it is. But it may not. It may no longer exist. It may exist, but no longer be operational.


Still, I will hope for the best.

[subterranean]

8. I don't see them reporting this on NHK.

Maybe they don't want to get people's hopes up prematurely.

[subterranean]

15. Now they just mentioned it.

They said they couldn't work on the connection yesterday because the radioactivity levels were too high. They hope to start this morning.

[snappyturtle]

9. Has anyone heard even a whimper or whisper about a new power

line before this? I think the gov't and TEPCO could have benefited greatly had they told the public that they were working on this. imho

edit: went to the Tokyo Electric Power Co. website...no mention there of a new power line :shrug:

[JBoy]

23. I see it as a positive that this news seems "sudden"

They may have had some show-stopper issues to sort out before it would even be possible. The announcement now tells me the probability of it actually working may be higher and more imminent.

If they'd announced this a few days ago, which is when they probably started working on it, they might have had to backtrack, meanwhile everyone would have been screaming "where the hell is that power line?"

[snappyturtle]

33. I suppose but in the meantime people agonized. Considering how

patient the Japanese people are even under terribly adverse circumstances, I still think a hint of hope would have helped. Instead, the people think they're on their own and tptb aren't doing anything. imho

[CabalPowered]

30. No

It took me by surprise. I read yesterday the plan was to hook up 10 GE Turbines. They were being prepped in Florida. There was no mention of an ETA.

[snappyturtle]

35. Yes, I heard that too and I wasn't very hopeful because the way

everything seemed to be deteriorating, I feared the turbines couldn't arrive soon enough.

[kristopher]

36. They need the power for 5 and 6 coolant pumps to operate without human presence

that is a deduction from the overall scenario

[FBaggins]

37. Can you explain what "deduction from the overall scenario" means?

n/t

[kristopher]

38. Not to someone that can't understand that sentence.

[FBaggins]

39. Oh give me a break.

Are you saying that hooking up power makes things worse?

And do you seriously think they just plan to "hold on" on the two that haven't been trouble yet and have no thought for the four in trouble?

[joshcryer]

41. Right now the 50 are risking their lives to keep radiation from spreading using hacks...

...if the system can be made operational again the radiation would go down and allow more people to come back and help.

It's actually really bizarre the reasoning used in the OP you responded to.

[FBaggins]

42. Par for this particular course.

But I thought I would at least ask.

[SpoonFed]

43. Um... excuse me...

Can you explain what "Can you explain what 'deduction from the overall scenario' means?"

Hahahah. I'm glad you're still making me laugh.

[kristopher]

50. I think you asked the wrong question

I just reviewed the thread and this time I was in the full thread view. You put "deduction from the overall scenario" in quotes and I presumed you were being a smart alec because 1) it is a pretty clear statement and 2) you like to ask pointless questions just to annoy me.

However, I suspect my sentence wasn't clear enough both because the pronoun wasn't capitalized making the sentence in the body look like a continuation of the header; which in turn alters the noun which "that" points to.

"That" was referring conclusion I expressed in the header.

Original:
They need the power for 5 and 6 coolant pumps to operate without human presence

that is a deduction from the overall scenario

Rewrite:
They need the power for 5 and 6 coolant pumps to operate without human presence.

That conclusion is a deduction (or extrapolation if you prefer) from the overall scenario I've observed over the past several days.


Lyman from UCS made the same point on Rachel several hours later.

Maybe we could try to raise the level of our discourse a bit? I'm game if you are.

[FBaggins]

53. See? All you had to do was rewrite it so that it made sense.

I don't see why you need all the bluster if you were going to admit that.

All I did was ask you what you meant.

[kristopher]

54. Don't tell me our history has no relationship to how you read my posts.

I'll take it from your attitude you used my olive branch to scratch your ass.

[FBaggins]

55. I try for it not to be.

I hope you remember that I treat your original posts very differently than when you spam the same stuff over and over and over because you consider it to be the final word on the matter... or when you treat any disagreement as proof that your interlocutor must be a paid shill of the enemy.

I'll take it from your attitude you used my olive branch to scratch your ass.

You're reading "attitude" where it doesn't exist. I'm just cautioning you that an attempt at greater civility (regardless of which of us thinks the other has the problem) can't work if you approach the discussion with the assumption that anyone who won't accept your premise as gospel must be uncivil... the olive branch doesn't last long.

[kristopher]

56. Well, I tried. Have it your way.

[FBaggins]

59. That was "tried"?

So what you really meant was "I want you to start being nicer to me" ?

[joshcryer]

40. They need the power for 5 and 6 coolant pumps to normalize the reactor.

Right now they have what is called a "hack." They're pumping in seawater via some other means to get the reactors cooled. This is an uncertain situation which is putting lives at risk. Bringing power back to the pumps would give them more control over the situation and allow them to continue cooling the reactor down. It also would save lives because it would minimize the flare ups that have been happening and ultimately allow the spent fuel and the reactor core to be safely disposed of.

[madokie]

45. Whats the chance that after all that has happened that power to the plants

will restart the cooling systems. Seems to me that there is a good possibility that that system has been damaged beyond repair dues to the dangers. No chance of sending in workers to do much repair work so Is this really good news?

I truly wish it were but I'm not so sure

[Throckmorton]

46. At this Point, any auxiliaries they can re-energize will help

Even lighting and communications.

Will the Emergency Core Cooling, Spent Fuel Pool Cooling, or Shutdown Cooling systems operate and at what level? That question, I nor anyone else on this board can answer, as we am not there.

Restoration of off-site power is a logical goal, even this late in the game.

BTW, all of these cooling systems use Service Water (Sea water pumped from an intake structure) as there ultimate heat sink. This may be the biggest sticking point, as these pumps all but certainly were submerged in salt water by the tsunami.

[madokie]

49. I agree wholeheartedly,

any thing will be an improvement over the present situation. I wish the best for them as they are my brothers and sisters we're talking about here.

[Statistical]

51. Remember there are multiple reactors and multiple cooling systems.

While it is unlikely that everything survived any portions that can be returned to normal will free up resources for the other striken parts.

Essentially you have 12 potential danger areas.

Reactor 1 - bad
Reactor 2 - bad
Reactor 3 - very bad
Reactor 4 - no fuel loaded - no risk
Reactor 5 - stable
Reactor 6 - stable

Fuel Pond 1-3 - unknown likely bad
Fuel Pond 4 - extremely critical (likely largest threat right now.
Fuel Pond 5-6 - water is evaporating but based on last measurement they have about 2 days before rods are exposed.
Site Fuel Pond - low risk, low heat, but eventually needs cooling.

Now not everything survived but maybe they get primary pumps and cooling ponds pumps in reactor 5 & 6 online. Then those emergency generators could be used elsewhere. Maybe the primary cooling system in say reactor 2 is dead but the emerency cooling system works.

So while it is unlkely that electricity solves everything it can maybe reduce the scope of the problem from 12 danger areas to a few.

[kristopher]

52. You consider the dry pool in 4 to be "no risk"?

Perhaps that needs a tad bit of clarification? Because 90 tons of waste on fire with no containment sounds pretty risky to me. You've something else you are judging by, no?

I thank you for the post, otherwise it is very clear.

[Throckmorton]

57. Well, he did not say that

Seems Like:

"Fuel Pond 4 - extremely critical (likely largest threat right now."

About covers that.

[kristopher]

58. You are right. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm out of here to try to get some rest, I have barely slept since the quake hit.