TEPCO workers not warned of radiation risk

[jpak]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110326003217.htm

Tokyo Electric Power Co. knew of the possibility of highly concentrated radioactive leakage at its Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant's No. 3 reactor, but it failed to alert workers before three of them were exposed to radiation Thursday, it was learned Saturday.

The worker's exposure to highly radioactive ankle-deep water in the turbine building connected to the No. 3 reactor was most likely due to TEPCO's failure to share information about the leakage of radioactive materials with the workers, the company admitted.

Another cause of the mishap was the failure on the part of the workers to pay attention to the pool of radiation-polluted water while laying power cables in spite of radiation alarms sounding, according to TEPCO.

The company had detected 200 millisieverts per hour of radiation leaking from the first basement of the turbine building of the No. 1 reactor on March 18, six days before the accident.

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[angstlessk]

1. Is that criminal in Japan?...n/t

[FBaggins]

2. So I guess the alarm going off for a couple hours doesn't count?

I'm sure they could have been given better training... But it's hard to believe you could walk onto the site of a a reactor accident that the whole country knows about AND carry your own personal radiation alarm screaming "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" for 2-3 hours ... And hen blame someone for not tellIng you that you might run into radiation.

[PamW]

3. Perhaps....

I'm sure they could have been given better training... But it's hard to believe you could walk onto the site of a a reactor accident that the whole country knows about AND carry your own personal radiation alarm screaming "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" for 2-3 hours ... And hen blame someone for not tellIng you that you might run into radiation.
=========================================

Perhaps these workers are so-called "environmentalists".

That would explain it.

PamW

[shraby]

4. Workers in a plant who deal with the radiation are all highly

trained and understand the dangers. They undergo training several times a year. These people knew what they were facing.

[FBaggins]

8. But are these regular plant workers?

Or are the electricians from other areas brought in for the emergency?

[shraby]

11. Those are most likely plant workers who work in rad areas.

They would be monitoring any electricians while the electricians are working to keep them as safe as is possible under the circumstances.
No workers untrained in rad protection would be allowed to work without health physics techs monitoring them. Under all rules that would never happen.

[ebayfool]

15. Not regulars. Liberal_in_LA has a post @ them ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x748470

Fukushima crisis: radiation fears grow for low-paid heroes battling disaster


The nerve centre of the operations to contain the crisis is a heavily shielded building on the reactor site, manned by about 50 top engineers. But the rest of the workforce, from firefighters to welders to electricians, are drawn from a pool of semi-skilled labour who work for low wages. Many work for associated companies such as Hitachi, Watanabe's employer, Toshiba, and Toden Kogyo. Between shifts they are housed in a football stadium, J-Village, within the expanded 30km evacuation zone and brought in by bus.

A number were seasonal workers, using a job at the plant to supplement livelihoods as small farmers. Some, like Watanabe, have been hopping between jobs at nuclear plants for years.

Like much of Japan, Watanabe is in awe of their bravery. "Of course, someone has to go and do the job and maybe the people who went wanted to do the right thing," he said.

He does not want to be asked to make the same sacrifice. The 35-year-old had been working as a caretaker at an old people's home when he got his first job at another nuclear plant three years ago. Since then, he has bounced from job to job in the industry, working for below the average monthly wage.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/27/fukushima-crisis-workers-radiation-fears

[shraby]

25. Those workers are trained also..at least they are here.

They have a new training period every time they work at the plants when they are down for refueling..called an outage.

[ebayfool]

29. Aye, maybe under normal circumstances & here - but the relevant point being made is ...

But the rest of the workforce, from firefighters to welders to electricians, are drawn from a pool of semi-skilled labour who work for low wages.



And I know what an outage is. Doesn't apply in this situation. Training for low level personnel is always a cost-cutting factor, in my experience. Never say never.

[PA Democrat]

36. Many work for subcontractors, including the three who stepped in the pool

of radioactive water.

On Thursday, three workers were exposed to high levels of radiation. They were all subcontract workers laying down cables, standing in water apparently containing radioactive materials, at a turbine building adjacent to a reactor building that lost power after the magnitude 9.0 quake off the coast and the ensuing devastating tsunami.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81152.html

[jpak]

12. Do we hate environmentalists?

:shrug:

[FBaggins]

20. There are environmentalists on both sides of the debate.

And many on both sides find it hard to believe that a "real" environmentalist could possibly be so firmly on the other. Thus the quotes.

Surely you've seen the phenomenon?

[jpak]

31. Yeah - there are "environmentalists" on the other side apologizing for this catastrophe 24/7

but they are the ((((real)))) environmentalists ya know

greenwash fail

yup

[FBaggins]

33. Thanks

for proving my point so efficiently.

[PamW]

39. Not real environmentalists...

Do we hate environmentalists?
=================================

Not real environmentalists, those whose concern is actually for
the environment and who use science to study the environment.

Hence the use of my adjective "so-called". The "so-called" environmentalists
are the frauds that take on the mantle of being an environmentalist,
but their real agenda is political and not environmental.

PamW

[PA Democrat]

41. So I'll ask again. Are you really suggesting those workers

ignored the alarms and endangered their health to make a political statement because they are "fake" environmentalists?

[PA Democrat]

37. What are you suggesting?

That a "so-called 'environmentalist'" as you put it would intentionally ignore the alarm? You think that three workers knowingly risked their lives to make a political statement?

Please tell me that is not what you are suggesting.

[PamW]

40. That is not what I'm suggesting at all.

Please tell me that is not what you are suggesting.
====================

Wrong interpretation, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

I guess my humor went way over your head.

PamW

[PA Democrat]

42. Sorry, I just don't see anything humorous about the situation.

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

6. of course, it's the workers' fault. what were we thinking?

[FBaggins]

10. I didn't say it was all their fault...

I said that we can't completely absolve them of blame and shift it all elsewhere.

It would be ridiculous for then to say "how could we have known?" wouldn't it?

[PamW]

43. Correct you are!!

It would be ridiculous for then to say "how could we have known?" wouldn't it?
=========================

If the workers really believed that they had malfunctioning dosimeters, then
the proper course of action would be to go get working dosimeters.

You don't press on with dosimeters that you think are malfunctioning!!!

The whole reason for having the dosimeters is so that you can monitor the
radiation exposure. If a worker thinks his dosimeter is malfunctioning because
it is constantly alarming, then he can't monitor is radiation exposure very well
then, can he?

He should go back and turn that malfunctioning dosimeter and get a new one.

This goes way beyond lack of training, this is lack of common sense.

PamW

[ebayfool]

14. Not so hard to believe, perhaps.

If the workers 'assumed' that the dosimeters were malfunctioning - in the midst of an ongoing crisis - that speaks volumes to be @ TEPCO's safety practices & training. TEPCO admits that they knew 6 days before this that the water was contaminated. That doesn't bode well for their training & safety practices - these workers don't look to have been sufficiently trained, or were misled @ the equipment (dosimeters) functioning (or lack of same), or were deemed expendable for the company's purposes. At the very least, those in charge are culpible - whether unintentional, careless, or deliberate. Any worker w/proper equipment & training wouldn't make such a basic mistake as ignoring a screaming dosimeter or meter. The story stinks to high heaven.

It can & does happen, btw. OSHA fined a company I worked for a big chunkochange for an incident where the radiographer fried his own hands - even though it was entirely his own fault. The company was held liable for employing someone that was basically too stupid to be working w/radioactive materials. And I've seen worse.

[flamingdem]

16. We can't be sure that really happened or can we nt

[FBaggins]

18. Sure? Not unless there has been more definitive reporting than what I've seen.

But then... There are lots of things we can't be certain of. We can only go with what has been reported.

It's reasonable to accept it however. There reason to believe that everyone on site is wearing a dosimeter... And they would certainly be chirping at those levels. Hard to believe that three would be broken simultaneously.

[flamingdem]

19. Have you worked for the Japanese? You always take the fall for your boss

I don't believe it.

[FBaggins]

22. Of course I don't "take the fall"

But I do take responsibility for my mistakes.

If I was one of those three I would feel pretty stupid.

Where I would be willing to blame the employer is this: I think the better dosimeters can be networked. There should be someone I. A command center who can see right away if someone is at risk and pull them out. If that isn't an option there should be a trained supervisor constantly checking (in person) each team every 15-30 minutes.

But "they never warned them that there might be radiation" just doesn't pass the smell test for me. You're next to a reactor that had a meltdown. "radiation!" should cross your mind every five breaths.

[flamingdem]

23. You know zilch about the Japanese - here they admit they knew about the high radiation

TEPCO's Fukushima office acknowledged Saturday that it had known earlier that the radiation in the underground level of the turbine building of one of the reactors was extremely high, but had not made the information available to pertinent parties.

[FBaggins]

24. It's not an issue to me whether or not they "knew" about radiation.

Again... this is multiple reactor accident. Workers should assume that there is always a risk of radiation and they should pay attention to the gear they're wearing that warns them of it.

TEPCO has been "aware" of high levels of radiation a NUMBER of times over the last two weeks... and then hours/days later it's all but gone.

The single best way to "tell" workers about radiation hazsards is to have every one of them carry the gear to detect it

What you're missing here is that it doesn't excuse TEPCO. They're in the wrong either way. They let three guys go into a potentially dangerous situation without any of the three knowing how to deal with it.

[flamingdem]

27. We agree on that much

but having worked for the Japanese I realize it would be their tendency to let the boss of the hook if they weren't given information or the needed devices. Clearly, they weren't issued the right boots.

[FBaggins]

28. Had to happen eventually.

:)

[flamingdem]

21. TEPCO acknowledges that it knew about the high levels in the basement EARLIER

"TEPCO's Fukushima office acknowledged Saturday that it had known earlier that the radiation in the underground level of the turbine building of one of the reactors was extremely high, but had not made the information available to pertinent parties."

[FBaggins]

26. If a football player makes a boneheaded play, I'm entitled to call it that.

It does NOT mean that he wasn't poorly coached... it doesn't mean that perhaps it was the wrong play to call... it doesn't mean that the offensive coordinator didn't see it coming in the last series and fail to warn him... it doesn't even mean that he wasn't the wrong player to draft in the first place.

It's still a boneheaded play.

They're in spitting distance of three reactors that melted down. There have been multiple evacuations because of spiking radiation levels. They're wearing devices that audibly warn them... and they ignored them. It was a boneheaded thing to do.

That doesn't mean that TEPCO didn't screw up. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't have had better training or better equipment or better supervision. But it was still an incredibly dense decision.

[PamW]

44. Binary thinkers.

It does NOT mean that he wasn't poorly coached... it doesn't mean that perhaps it was the wrong play to call... it doesn't mean that the offensive coordinator didn't see it coming in the last series and fail to warn him... it doesn't even mean that he wasn't the wrong player to draft in the first place.
==========================

I think you are up against with what I call "binary thinking".

The binary thinker has a single bit - flip the bit one way, it's the workers fault.
Flip the bit the other way, it's the fault of management.

It's one or the other.

I've seen this so many times. People are looking for the one, single reason for
something, or the one, single person who is at fault.

As in most accidents, there are multiple contributing causes and multiple people
at fault to varying degrees.

You can't represent that complexity with a single bit.

PamW

[FBaggins]

45. 01011001 01100101 01110000 n/t

:)

[SpoonFed]

32. Hmm.

I wonder if the Liquidators working on Chornobyl put their alarms on silent as they worked, or what?

Check out the photos, maybe you can tell?





Notice the white lines at the bottom of the one above. That's radiation affecting the camera film. He talks about taking the photo in the 2006 documentary. BTW, the photo is also taken in SEPTEMBER 1986... that's what, like 5 months after the start of the disaster, why hasn't all the magic radiation disappeared and everything groovy by then?





FBaggins, I personally resent the fact that you could suggest that anyone working in the conditions in and around the plant in Fukushima is somehow responsible for any mistakes that might arise from the conditions of simply being there. I can't imagine what unbelievable stress they must be under. I think it must be like a war zone, except there is no enemy to kill or courage to bolster, everything is quiet for the most part, invisible and very very deadly. Think about that.

[FBaggins]

34. "why hasn't all the magic radiation disappeared "

Duh. Because Chernobyl was far worse than the current crisis. FAR worse.

FBaggins, I personally resent the fact that you could suggest that anyone working in the conditions in and around the plant in Fukushima is somehow responsible for any mistakes that might arise

That "might arise"???

We're talking about mistakes they made... not something that "darn it... just happened".

invisible and very very deadly. Think about that.

You're willing to ask ME to think about that... but not willing to expect THEM to think about it?

[SpoonFed]

38. I'm sure they do nothing but think about it,

but the different between me and particularly you is that they are doing it, living it, dying it, and not just armchair interneting about it. I've come to learn from experience and more and more as the years pass, that the engineers and academics sure like to think that doing it is easy compared to the theory of it. Pretty funny, that not may of them walk the walk.

[jpak]

35. Off-subject - that old-school Soviet NBC gear always gives me the creeps

I wonder if that was on purpose

[PamW]

46. The Chernobyl workers knew what they were doing....

It does NOT mean that he wasn't poorly coached... it doesn't mean that perhaps it was the wrong play to call... it doesn't mean that the offensive coordinator didn't see it coming in the last series and fail to warn him... it doesn't even mean that he wasn't the wrong player to draft in the first place.
======================================

The Chernobyl workers knew what they were doing. They didn't turn off or ignore the
radiation alarms. They didn't die because of ignorance of the danger. No - they knew
full well of the danger and went ahead anyway. They made a real sacrifice for their
country and countrymen. Please don't dishonor that sacrifice by implicating that they
ignored dangers. They faced the dangers head on.

FBaggins is correct. Anyone that is in that facility should be cognizant of the
potential for radiation exposure and be prepared to take appropriate action.

Ignoring your dosimeter because you think it is broken is not appropriate action.

Appropriate action would be to stop and go get a working dosimeter if you think the one
you have is broken.

PamW

[SpoonFed]

47. missed sarcasm

I think you missed the sarcasm of my message in reply to his suggestion that these workers in the recent case were untrained oafs. I was implying that these workers like those of Chornobyl who faced great personal risk should be respected for their work and sacrifice. (Read the last paragraph of my message).

[RC]

5. More scare mongering

[ReturnoftheDjedi]

7. is your job in danger?

[RC]

30. Nope, retired.

Have lots of time to research things.

[jpak]

13. Not enough scare mongering

yup

[PoliticAverse]

9. Relevant Documentary...

Japanese made documentary on nuclear plant contract workers in Japan on google video
(with English subtitles and some English narration, ~ 26 minutes running time).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=441194678989668.

[flamingdem]

17. When you work for the Japanese, you follow orders, thus the command is at fault nt