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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 08:03 PM
Original message
Illuminated list of the world's largest solar PV power plants.
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 08:11 PM by NNadir
Sometimes we are told by people, by members of the International Society of Poorly Educated Luddites for instance, that we do not need to take any risks to attempt to arrest the global climate change crisis that is now under way. The reason, such people imply, is that magical solar PV power will save the day.

This of course is entirely appropriate in the age where the atmosphere is collapsing while a world full of lotus eaters happily feast on the tales of the magical Harry Potter.

So how is the magical solar program to undo the global climate change crisis with solar PV cells proceeding?

Here is a link in which you can see for yourself, i.e. shed some light on the partially lit 50 largest solar PV plants, plants that are so widely and wildly celebrated by members of International Society of Poorly Educated Luddites and their allies:


http://www.pvresources.com/en/top50pv.php

I copied this fabulous news into a spreadsheet and did some analysis.

The total "capacity" advertised by these plants represents, according to the promoters, 97.4 "megawatts" of capacity. It is necessary to put "megawatts" in quotation marks, because there is a column for some pathetic fraction of these plants in which the actual energy output of these plants is given in the energy unit megawatt-hours, one megawatt-hour being 3.6 billion joules. A putative 1 megawatt plant operating at 100% of capacity for 24 hours a day, 365.25 days a year would produce 31.6 trillion joules. Where these values have been given it is thus possible to calculate the capacity loading of these plants, i.e. the amount of power that they actually produce as compared to what their ratings advertise they would produce if they operated 24 hours a day, 365.25 days per year.

The most highly capacity loaded solar plant in the world is the 4 "megawatt" beauty in Goetellborn, Germany which comes in at an impressive 23.3%. This means its real capacity is almost 1 megawatt. The lowest capacity loaded plant was the heroic 2.3 "megawatt" plant at Vijfhuizen, Netherlands, which came in at 0.07% capacity loading, meaning that it is really a 0.16 megawatt plant, but at least it's trying. It ain't easy, you know, what with all those clouds in the Netherlands. In matters of global climate change, good intentions count more than results. After all, many of the dead in the global climate change disaster will be guys with dark skin living in places we don't give a shit about, like Bangladesh, Niger, Mali and the Marshall Islands.

The (unweighted) average performance of the demystified solar power plants was, rounding the last digit up to help as much as we can, 12.5%.

Thus we see that the real solar PV capacity of the top 50 solar plants in the world was somewhere around 97*0.126 = 12.2 Megawatts.

The members of the International Society of Poorly Educated Luddites can certainly take pride in their efforts, produced after more than 4 decades of loud talking and promising.

Last year the Diablo Canyon nuclear station Unit 1 reactor (as in 1 of 2) produced 100.4% of its rated capacity of 1,067 Megawatts or 1071 watts of power.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/diablo.html

We can all be encouraged that the top 50 solar PV plants in the world managed to produce more than 1% of one half of 1 nuclear power plant out of 440 nuclear plants in the world that produce power without polluting the air and without contributing to global climate change.

I am so glad that we have the members of the International Society of Poorly Educated Luddites to help us make decisions in this time of global tragedy.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. So?
Edited on Sat Aug-20-05 08:43 PM by skids
Electricity is most needed during the day, to run air conditioners. That's when the PV plants provide it. Sure they should be more efficient. That's in the pipeline with concentrated PV technology.

Meanwhile the nuke plants have to slash prices just to sell the electricity they generate at night. Without those incentives, consumers and resellers would not be willing to pay to construct expensive power storage facilities.

And what about photo-thermoelectric plants? Is it that you nuke advocates want to pick fights with PV because it is the weakest contender? Well, you don't get to, because big brother thermo is waiting by the turnbuckle just asking to be "tagged in."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_chimney

Personally, I'm no big fan of centralized power plants of any stripe. Power should be local, generated as close to the point of use as practical. If you want to provide tax dollars and direct purchase dollars to large corporations so they have control of your power, be my guest. It'd be better than my taxes going towards war. Just don't do it where I have to trip over the spent fuel rods.



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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'll believe the solar death ray, erm excuse me, chimney when I see it.
3.5 km glass base? Wouldn't that have the same effect as a magnifying glass on steroids? Won't it prevent rain underneath it? Sounds like a great way to kill off a perfectly good ecosystem.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Answers.

The magnifying glass thing is silly, of course not. Just ask yourself, how thick, and at what height, would a lense have to be to focus light?

As far as rainfall, I don't know the design details but my guess is that there is a drainage system to let water in.

As far as an ecosystem goes, so is farmland, and as a very large greenhouse, this qualifies as that.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. So, where exactly is one megawatt of solar chimney capacity?
This is more blather about what solar power could do or might do.

There is nothing about what solar power is doing.

The issue is not vague socialism, or libertarian cowboy fantasies about producing power in the backyard.

The issue is that the atmosphere is collapsing, right now.

When you can demonstrate that solar towers are producing 1000 MW somewhere on earth, economically, reliably, on a fully loaded 24/7 365.25 day a year basis, maybe you will have a case.

I really don't give a shit about your feelings about centralized power. I don't really give a shit about your feelings about corporations.

I do give a shit about the atmosphere I am leaving to my children. Our planet is dying now.


Here is the bullshit blurb from your link:

"One of the earliest descriptions of a solar chimney power station was written in 1931 by a German author, Hanns Günther. Beginning in 1975, Robert E. Lucier applied for patents on a solar chimney device; between 1978 and 1981 these patents, since expired, were granted in the USA<1>, Canada<2>, Australia<3> and Israel<4>.

More recently Schlaich, Bergerman and Partner, under the direction of German engineer Prof. Dr. Ing. Jörg Schlaich, built a working model of a solar tower in 1982 in Manzaranes, (Spain), 150 km south of Madrid, which was funded by the German Government. This power plant operated successfully for approximately 8 years. The chimney had a diameter of 10 metres and a height of 195 metres, and the maximum power output was about 50 kW.

It was destroyed by heavy weather and thunderstorms in 1989 and was officially decommissioned. However, during the final 3 years, optimization data was collected on a second-by-second basis. This data has been licensed to EnviroMission and SolarMission Technologies Inc. USA, who plan to manufacture solar chimneys under the brand name Solar Tower. At the beginning of 2005 they started collecting meteorological data at a proposed site in New South Wales, Australia, and hope to build the tower and begin full operation in 2008.

The maximum power output for this tower is expected to be 200 MW. The proposed chimney was originally to be 1km high, and the base 3.5km in diameter. However, reports now indicate that due to improved heat absorption materials being used for the base, the tower height and base diameter will be substantially reduced by an unknown amount by the time production is completed."

Sorry "is expected" doesn't cut it.

An operating history of 50 MW doesn't cut it either.

Since 1980, nuclear power has produced 160 exajoules of energy. This means on average, over 25 years, nuclear power has an operating capacity of 56 million watts, or a million times the capacity of this proposed solar power tower, which is, by the way, a pathetic 200 mega"watts" probably being rated at the peak of day, like all solar bullshit. Moreover, it's not like most of that energy was generated in 1980. The worldwide nuclear production has increased almost by a factor of 4 since 1980, although the building of plants has slowed down enormously. This is all growth through efficiency. Last year, world nuclear power production was 2574 terrawatt-hours or 9.2 exajoules, represented 17% of the world's electrical energy produced. If the thermal efficiency of nuclear power plants is taken to be 30%, this means that the total generated energy of these plants represented 30 exajoules, or roughly 7 percent of all the energy produced on earth for all purposes irrespective of efficiency.

If you want to put your kids lives in the hands of a technology that has an operating experience that is one millionth of the operating experience of nuclear power, that's your business I suppose. But I will not agree. Do not expect me to cheer or drink the Koolaid. In fact I will hold your cavalier attitude about my children's lives in deep suspicion, even contempt.

For the record I am neither a socialist nor a Jeffersonian agrarianist. I am a Democrat. This means I believe in well regulated capitalism. That is not the same as being an Ayn Rand retard of the type found in the Repuke party; libertarianism is for losers too. I don't give a rat's ass about elaborate economic theories or cant or anybodies wishful thinking. Whether the issue is economics or energy, I am proud to say that as a Democrat I am interested in what works.

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Blather.
Let's talk about "hypothetical" blather, then shall we?

Specifically the blather about what huge nuclear power plants could or might do.

How long does it take to build a 1GW nuke plant and render it operational? (Remember, the issue is that the atmosphere is collapsing right now!) How much does it cost? By the time it is built, what guarantee does it offer the investors that it will not already be obseleted by advances in renewable technology?

The very idea of "the bigger the better" is hype on your part, and patently false.

Smaller, distributed generation stations are the future of power. They allow a smaller initial investment, which will not be as high a financial risk in a field that is undergoing rapid development. They also have a smaller hidden cost in high-level long-distance power distribution systems -- much of which require government subsidy and oversight. They are more robust from a security and disaster standpoint, and their funding can be drawn proportionally from the local population instead of requiring consumers to pay into a system that benefits others more than it does themselves, either through taxes, or through the offsets companies apply to their prices to cover investment costs.

Moreover, smaller plants can be planned, approved, and constructed on a local level much faster than gigantic systems.

And you never answered -- how come you attack PV exclusively? What about all the other technologies? Afraid to take them on?

Obviously you can't, because your attack on the chimney technology was pathetic. The 50Kw was a small-scale model designed for the sole purpose of R&D. To attack that model as an example of a fully functional plant is disengenuous, and says a lot about your sincerity. Qualified engineers then upscaled it to 200 MW. Funding is already secured for the Australian installation, so it's not a question of what *could* happen here, it's what *will* happen in 2008. One will be constructed that meets the needs of the community it was selected for.

That's an example of people actually doing something about the problem, instead of just mouthing off about it.

Anyway, I'm not one to idly argue. Don't look for me at a GreenPeace protest, as that's not my style. I'll fight nuclear power with the most effective weapon at my own disposal -- my purchasing and usage behavior. When it comes time to build your vaunted reactor, you may manage to get some tax dollars out of me -- I'll resent that -- but you will not get a customer. By then, I will be off the grid. Have fun watching your stock options devalue.

I'll know I did my part by taking care of my own power needs. Will you, at that point?


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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. There are 440 nuclear plants, 367 gigawatts of capacity, over 2500 TW.
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 10:56 AM by NNadir
produced last year.

The United States in the 1960's built 110 nuclear power plants in a 20 year period between 1960 and 1980. That's 5.5 per year, the last ten years filled with delays because of fear and misinformation. That's not a fucking promise, it's a result.

France built 78 nuclear power plants in the same period. A typical construction time was about 2 years.

Maybe real results are blather to you and maybe you are wealthy enough to pay for some solar fantasy.

Fine. The cost of solar cells is still $5.22 a "watt," where a
"watt" (in solar hype speak) is something that runs at 15% of capacity. That comes out to $5.22/0.15 = $34.80.

I'm a liberal. This means that I believe that poor people count too, that a solution valid for some wealthy spoiled brats does not represent a solution for everyone.

Solar power is sexy.

Solar power is cool.

Everyone wants to believe in solar power. So, if it really worked, there would more than 25 Megawatts of real capacity wouldn't there?

I don't have to "attack" the "other" technologies, and I'm not really "attacking" PV. I am simply pointing out that after years and years of well, blather, it makes a meaningless contribution to arresting global climate change, about as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero.

The "other technology" you pointed us in your previous post to was a proposed solar power tower that will be the tallest structure on earth, nearly one kilometer high and will generate, its promoters hope a trivial 200 Megawatts. It doesn't exist. It may never exist. It may just more of the same bullshit wishful thinking that has become lotus eating while our atmosphere collapses.

http://www.thewatt.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=478

World energy demand is something like 400 exajoules. This works out to an average power requirement of 13 terawatts. To meet this demand, the world would require more than 63,000 200 MW power plants operating day and night. Where exactly are 63,000 1 kilometer tall solar power towers planned? Who's financing them. Who's siting them.

Right now there are 23 nuclear power plants under construction, 39 on order and 73 in the planning stages. This new capacity represents more than 100 gigawatts of new capacity, and as everyone knows, nuclear power plants typically run at close to 90% of capacity.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.htm

If you have yet a third "solar technology" the challenge is not on me to show that it doesn't work. The challenge is for you to show that it does work. Where on the planet are these technologies producing as much power as a single 500 MW coal fired plant, on a weighted 24/7, 365.25 day a year basis?"

Because, I have to say it over and over and over and over and over and over: The global climate change crisis isn't happening after some magical invention

Maybe your great idea is to build "tallest structures in the world" in everyone's backyard to provide for some day dream distributed power system.

Excuse me if I think it's bullshit, if I doubt that your failure to purchase power from some evil corporation will do doodly squat to address the crisis the earth is facing.

Here is what I am trying to do to help with the immediate crisis. I'm merely trying to introduce a sense of reality. I don't fucking need to justify myself to anyone. I certainly don't buy the claim of the "solar only" crowd that they are my moral superiors, though they certainly like to present themselves as so. In fact, I regard them as morally indifferent. By opposing nuclear power, they are opposing the only known demonstrated technology that can slow and/or arrest global climate change. Sorry, but I don't find that particularly estimable.

Most of the time scale technologies just end up being point source pollution sources. That will certainly be true of PV cells when they are discarded.

We already have experience with this kind of thing, the "small and independent is better," libertarian inspired claptrap. Walk by any stream in the northeast and you can see traces of motor oil on the surface, provided by "distributed transportation systems," aka automobiles. We all know mass transit is superior. While many are killed by air pollution from massive coal plants, and many more are killed by the production from the air pollution from "distributed transportation," automobile exhaust. The largest single category for air pollution deaths world wide results from the use of biomass (firewood) in their homes, another form of "distributed energy production." http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs292/en/ There are rotting cars, discarded tires, dumped refrigerators, piles of outlaw construction material distributed in millions of illegal dumps across the country. Much of this stuff got there by the agency of small operators and/or individuals. It is a mistake to assume moral purity on the part of individuals. Individuals are often stupid, immoral or both.

In well regulated capitalism (and that would not be the rapacious criminality that is now passing for capitalism) one can look to a central source and monitor it very well. It is the monitoring and regulation that counts, not the size.

If everybody on the planet had their own coal boiler/generators, we would have all died long ago.

Because the solar industry is so weeny, because it is an economic failure, we haven't had much experience with it's environmental impact. In the only country, however, where there is enough data to measure it (Germany) the external cost of solar energy has been found to be three times higher than nuclear energy. (External costs are those costs associated with the destruction of the environment and damage to human health.)

http://www.externe.info/externpr.pdf

I'm sorry but I don't buy Thomas Jefferson's 18th century "small is better," crap. It isn't.

If we are going to solve this problem it isn't going to come from 7 billion people just doing whatever the fuck they feel like, running off in wild directions giving full reign to their fantasies. It's going to take a co-operative effort on the part of highly trained and highly knowledgeable teams of professionals. The building of a nuclear power plant takes the co-operation of thousands of people, the majority of whom are highly educated, highly trained, and happily, highly paid. (God forbid that we provide high paying rewarding jobs.) To suggest that a bunch of cowboys reading home power magazines are somehow better intellectually equipped to address an extreme crisis of global proportions ought to be absurd on its face.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You have only one real point.
...that being that the peak ratings touted for solar PV plants are not to be used to gauge their contribution.

That takes about 40 seconds to convey, and is not news to most people who pursue renewable energy.

Nor is a time-constant production curve any advantage at all.

The rest of the time, you spend misrepresenting the renewables industry through unfair "debate tactics." For example, pretending that the figures about plants constructed decades ago are representative of current technology. Pretending that a technology that outputs when usage peaks is so horribly a bad thing. Making assertions you have obviously not researched to find facts behind -- modern solar panel "disposal" a problem. Indeed.

So you want to talk about technology with a "demonstrated" impact? Then let's talk about replacing all those old 7 SEER air conditioners (air conditioning being the primary driver of electricity usage) with something you can buy off the shelf at Costco. Let's talk about the huge portion of fossil emissions that are used for space and water heating in decrepit, inefficient buildings.

And yes, let's talk about the fact that it is the poor that are living in those decrepit buildings and using those obselete appliances -- not to mention, paying for that extra electricity and heating fuel with pocket lint.

Let's talk about all the manufacturing jobs and "highy trained" "well paid" people that would benefit from a sincere program to revamp these facilities.

Where we get our power is a side-issue compared to the failure of our institutions to reduce usage in the first place, and don't you forget it. No plant -- nuclear, solar, whatever -- that we could ever possibly construct would have a better return on environmental investment than the equivalent money competantly applied to demand reduction.

So if you don't think "big business" is the problem here, ponder why our efforts to reduce demand have been so paultry.


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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Say what?
Tell me again in 10 years that "where we get our power" is a side-issue.

I think we all agree that conservation is critical, but there is a certain point below which an industrial society can't reduce power usage.

One thing I'd like to hear the "conservation is everything" crowd commit to: What's the fraction we can reduce by, using conservation (efficiency, lifestyle changes, etc.)

What's the lower limit of power can we run a modern society on? Is it 1/2 the yearly energy we use today? I think that figure is optimistic. But even if it's attainable, it still means we have to supply 50 exajoules per year to run the United States. You can't talk seriously about supplying that kind of energy and say it's a "side-issue" where all the energy is going to come from.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. We could reduce much further than 50%.

If you find this mind-boggling, you simply have not done your homework on the matter.

America is shamefully wasteful when it comes to energy.

If all the profits weren't going to schmucks, and if the poor weren't going to suffer for it, I'd say the single most effective way we could reduce greenhouse gas emissions would be to increase the price of energy drastically through supply shortages.

Unfortunately the political realities are that any solution we choose as national policy will be subverted with corruption and graft, with little concern for the health of society... the current "de facto" do nothing and feed big oil policy included.



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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Unfortunately, I think the price of energy WILL increase drastically
due to supply shortages. So, we will probably all get a chance to prove your theory.

I'm still interested in an actual number. You say "much further than 50%." What do you think the "real" number is? Specifically, I'm interested in a figure that will still support law, order, reasonable health care, some continued rate of scientific/technological progress, modern education (not the Kansas version), etc.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It's a hard number to pin down.
It has to be done sector-by-sector and based on the efficiency of our cars, houses, apartment buildings, appliances, commercial/public buildings, outdoor lighting, etc. It's a worthy project for an academic (I'm not one.)

The transportation sector is perhaps the easiest to pin down. There the number is probably about 50%, not including any way to offset direct combustion with other resources like the plug-in-hybrids do. Whether that preserves "law and order" is entirely a matter of how hard people cling to those SUVs. Whether it impacts the economy depends on exactly how much of that air travel we do is really essential, and how much freight (trucks and rail) shipping can be optimized.

Home and business HVAC will be a major source of gains, if tackled.

What's going to happen will suck. With increased energy prices and no social equity plan, there will be chaos in the low-rent sections and a lot of elderly people freezing to death or dying of heatstroke.

I went to Home Depot the other day and saw lots of insulation, water heaters, etc flying through the registers. The people buying those are the ones who can afford it. The ones who can't will end up spending more and more proportionally on power.

I expect Las Vegas will be a tad bit less well lit in the end (and I point that out merely as one egregious example of the silly things we burn power to do.)

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I think our inability to agree on numbers like this...
inhibits the debate. For example, we currently use about 100 ExaJoules per year, here in the US. Now, if you're having a conversation about how expensive it would be to migrate our country to using all wind/solar, it matters a lot whether you are thinking in terms of replacing all 100 ExaJoules/year, or just 50 ExaJoules or 10 ExaJoules.

And it also matters a lot, just in terms of trying to envision what a "sustainable America" looks like. An America running on 50 ExaJoules/year is significantly different than an America running on 100 ExaJoules/year. And I'm pretty sure that an America running on 10 ExaJoules/year would be all but unrecognizeable, regardless of leveraging increased efficiencies.

I just think that differences in basic parameters like this causes impedence mismatches when we try to converse on sustainability, alternative energies, etc.
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. A link on peak demand
not exactly what i was searching for, though I think many of you will find it interesting. Includes details on saving 100 GW of peak power.

http://www.ems.org/lighten_the_load/docs/quick_start.html

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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. There is a lot of room for conservation.
Europe uses half the energy per capita that the U.S. does.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Huh? I don't see anyone arguing against conservation...
:shrug:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
49. I agree with your points about conservation; as for solar "news"
I don't agree that the only people who have to understand are solar partisans.

Solar partisans routinely over represent their technology and it's capability, and I insist on illuminating the matter. If it were just a scam for making money by over promising and under-delivering, it would be one thing, but the energy/environmental catastrophe is an unprecedented event on a global scale.

I am not interested in addressing people who understand energy intimately because they work with it; I am addressing "public perception," which in the area of energy (as in most other areas) is informed by religion, denial, stupidity and spin.

As for the dubious complaint about my debating topics, I note that the three largest solar plants in the world, all built in Germany were built in the last 2 years. They are presumably the most modern in the world. The weighted capacity loading of these facilities shows that they operate at less than 12% loading capacity. You may wish to call that a "debating" tactic; I do understand that in these times people are uncomfortable with discussing reality and so try to "spin" "discussing reality" with nonsensical by calling it a "debating tactic."

I have not made numbers up however. The solar plant at Burstadt, Germany came on line this fucking year. It's brand fucking new. The energy it produces is 10.2% its bullshit (as in misrepresented, as in lying, as in false) power rating of 5 megawatts, which even if it were 100%, would still be trivial given the scale of the global climate change problem. I'm sorry you don't like the numbers, but they are real, and I refuse to fudge them to buy into the solar mysticism.

I also contend that there is no solar panel disposal issue because the solar industry - all they hype aside - is a tiny, insignificant industry. Obviously if less than 1% of the people relied on automobiles to get around, the disposal of tires, for instance, would be a tiny issue as well. Again, the point is to address magical thinking. If there were an important solar PV industry - which is unlikely because there are better options - there would be a disposal problem.

However, I do note you are correct when you emphasize conservation. The most efficient means of making energy available to all at reasonable prices and more importantly at avoiding its environmental impact is simply to avoid using it frivolously.

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Recycling/disposal.
My arguments are not based on the scale of the industry, but rather the progress of the technology. Way back in 1998, the disposal "problem" looked like this:

http://www.pv.bnl.gov/keystone.htm

But the emerging trend is towards concentrated PV that are a tiny fraction of the size of flat plate collectors (operating at 100 to 200 "suns"). There the biggest disposal problem is whatever they may decide to coat the mirrors with as a reflective surface and possibly to filter out any bandwidths that serve only to (undesireably) heat the cells.

My point is that if you are going to pick lice off the solar industry, you should be more familiar with the technology and its trends. You aren't.


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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Power generated at night could easily be used to charge up
plug-in hybrids, like those now being modified in California. Someone I know did a little back of the napkin figuring and came out with numbers that suggest that 1/3 of our personal vehicles could be replaced by plug-in hybrids with the unused night generating capacity.

As to the rest of NNadir's points, I think that solar is not going to be the best choice for cloudy climates. Duh. But I think that solar will make more and more sense in sunnier climes like the western U.S. and many less wealthy countries as supplies of fossil fuels dwindle or their phase-out to combat global warming occurs. Solar, and other renewables, will be much more effective if energy storage or load balancing schemes are developed. But what we have to keep in mind is that a little electricity makes life so much more pleasant as I think that we, or our children, will find that out in the not too distant future.
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Gronk Groks Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Only one trouble with your numbers...
...ALL of the solar power plants are in less than optimal conditions.

Put the same effort into the American Southwest (example: Nevada) and your capacity loading increases substantially.

Of course that is in America and we don't believe in Solar energy...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Um, no they are not. The Mohave desert would be optimal.
If a solar plant can't work there, it can't work anywhere.

The 1.3 "megawatt" solar plant at the 29 Palms Marine base, probably built as a pork project, produced 2528 MW-hrs of energy last year, or 9 trillion joules. Nine trillion joules/31.6 million seconds per year works out to 0.288 megawatts of real power. The capacity loading of this plant is thus 0.288/1.3 MW = 0.22 or 22%.

This plant is located in the center of one of the driest deserts in North America. Rainfall is typically about 4 inches a year.

http://www.militarynewcomers.com/29PALMS04/TWENTYNINE/Localarea.html

The reality is that it is a lie, it is doublespeak to refer to this plant as having 1.3 "megawatts."

I personally don't care if people waste money on solar plants; it is far better, far more socially conscientious to buy solar cells than it is to buy a Hummer. Solar cells are fine for the subset of people who can afford them. But they make a completely trivial contribution to addressing the crisis. Worse they give the perception that the problem can be managed in a with simplistic cute sounding panaceas.

It is not the point of my post that solar power should be banned. The point of my post is that magical thinking will not solve the global warming crisis that is occurring right now, as at this very instant..

Everybody on the planet has a warm and fuzzy feeling about solar power; everybody thinks it's sexy; it gets excellent press. So with all that good will, decades and decades and decades of it, it cannot produce more than 30 Megawatts of power (on a 24/7 365.25 days a year basis) it is pretty pathetic and represents no real solution to a real problem.

To repeat the real problem is global climate change which is not going to happen someday. It is happening NOW.

I am personally sick of hearing dithering promises, decade after decade, about what solar power will do some day. They are especially annoying, and especially dangerous, when they are presented as a reason that we can afford to not have nuclear power. We must have nuclear power or will are very likely to die. Nuclear power prevented an additional 7 ppm of carbon dioxide from being added to the atmosphere in the last 25 years. When solar only proponents can point to real results on the same level they will contributing more than wishful thinking and loud useless, if not completely noxious, mouthes.
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Gronk Groks Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Sunlight 24 hours a day ???
Divide your number of seconds in half. Twenty-two percent efficency becomes 44%. The 29 Palms Base only supplies itself, it cannot (by Congressional Act) sell power to the civilian power companies which do not want the competition.

The age of the system is over 20 years old. The technology has improved dramatically since then.

Of course the entire argument is fallacious. The Government simply needs to give tax credits to individual homeowners who install solar systems on their homes. Every house in Las Vegas or Los Angeles should have solar panels.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I am talking about power produced, not power when the sun is shining.
That is exactly the point. People claim that a solar panel produces x megawatts because that is what it produces for a few hours.

This is pure bullshit. The last time I looked, a day still had 86,400 seconds in it. I am not going to declare the day shorter in order to hype a failed industry, the solar PV industry.

Here is a definition: Power = energy/time.

As for the tax credit business, we just had Governor Hydrogen Hummer Boy sign tax credits for solar PV systems in California.

Let's see how many of these "million solar roofs" are actually installed. I'll bet that ten years from now (after Bangladesh has been submerged) we'll still be waiting.

As noted, the best performance of any solar PV plant in the world - built at any time - is 23.3%. Any other type of power plant that operated with 23.3% of capacity would be shut down. These plants stay open not because they actually do very much to confront global climate change, but because of legislative fiat and wishful thinking.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Electricity in the Southwest cannot be sent to the Northeast.
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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. That has its own problems.
Let's assume you are right and we convert all the spare open space in the southwestern deserrt into solar farms. Transmition loses due to resistance would kill us. Currently the bulk of our power is relatively locally produced (meaning at least same state) and still we lose a very large percentage of the electricity produced to transmition loses. You're talking about producing most of the power in the southwest and transmitting it all over he continent which would cause use to lose the majority of electricity produced.

Then there is the issue of that solar cells require far to much area for a given output. On another website I remember reading a very well done article about the amount of area it takes a solar cell to produce one megawatt at peak power and the final results were that it would take nearly the entire land area of the United States to produce all of our current energy needs via the best solar cells available. That's just to inefficient to be considered.

Our realistic options coal, oil, natural gas, biomass, hydroelectric, and nuclear. There are specific locations where things like wind, solar, and geothermal can be used but even if we massively increase the capacity 300% to 400% we'll still only get 8%-10% of our total energy from those sources. Of the realistic options only hydo and nuclear don't produce green house gases so they're the soundest enviromental choices. We don't have to many rivers lerft we can build hydroplants on and eviromentalists would have a shit if we tried so the reality is nuclear is the only way for us to go for the lion's share of our power needs. That's just the facts, mate.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I kinda doubt that.
Though I'd probably opt for solar thermal with a thermal storage system and CHP using thermoelectric or stirlings, with PV for peak AC load,
were I to go the pure PV route, I'd be able to fit the whole system on my roof to cover all my power needs. That is, if I thought putting it on my roof was a good idea in the first place -- I suppose for some it is, but for rural areas...

My bet is most other people would be able to roof it, too.

And that means just from that tiny amount of residential roof space, we'd cover roughly 1/3rd of the U.S. electrical load. And no, low-rent highrise apartment buildings don't account for a substantial portion of electricity use.



Whoever did that analysis must have been smoking crack.

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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, hydro . . . there's plenty . . .
of clean energy to be harnessed . . . all it requires is a commitment to the technology . . .
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Every form of power generation has it's costs
and most of the ones you've listed have pretty strict location requirements (such that there are only so many good locations) and some make pretty severe changes to the local ecosystem.

Regardless of source, the cheapest watt of power is the watt saved. In this country, there is a lot of 'fat' that can be trimmed without adversely effecting lifestyles.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way to get someone else to save a watt (or Joule, more precisely) is to make it more expensive.
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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. They are all of limited usefulness.
Here's why. As even the pro-solar people in this thread have admited solar doesn't work every where yet even in optimal conditions it sucks compared to just about every other power source we have. Tidal has big problems in that the floating bowie type get clogged with seaweed and need expensive regular maintance while the more efficent tidal dam type block off sections of the coast to fish and are an eye sore. To be efficent tidal will only work is select areas with unusually high tidal activity so it will never be more then a niche. Geothermal is nice if you have a geothermal heat source near by but most of the world doesn't. If you aren't near a volcano, tectonic boundry, or an area of thin crust (like the imperial valley in California) then you can forget it. Hydro is very good and we would do well to have more of it but the reality is large rivers don't exist every where and where they do exist local enviromentalists would oppose the contruction of new dams.

I'm still waiting to hear a viable option besides nuclear to produce the bulk of our energy without producing tons of green house gases.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yawn
Same old name-calling, same old pathetic strawmen...

It took 30 years for the US nuclear industry to increase plant capacities to their current levels, i.e., it took them 3 decades to get it right.

During the same period no new US plants were ordered and several were decommissioned (and TMI Unit 2 and Browns Ferry Unit 1 had were taken out of service rather *ahem* abruptly).

Even if the Bush Administration is successful in subsidizing the construction of 3 new nuclear power plants (at a cost to taxpayers of $6 billion), US nuclear capacity will decline dramatically in the next 20 years as older plants are decommissioned.

The same is true for global nuclear capacity. The IEA estimates that global nuclear capacity will peak ~2010 and decline dramatically by 2020.

In contrast, global PV and wind capacity are growing exponentially and will exceed global nuclear capacity by 2020.

Nuclear power is a cooked goose, and renewables are in ascendancy (and well on their way to supremacy).

Get over it

:)

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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Link, Please
"In contrast, global PV and wind capacity are growing exponentially and will exceed global nuclear capacity by 2020."

That's a tall claim. Please back it up.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I've linked these data in previous posts
and have been accused of "stupid googling" for my efforts.

Nevertheless here they are...

Global PV capacity 2020 = 260 GW

http://www.solartoday.org/2005/jan_feb05/RE_transition.htm

and trends...

http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/2004/indicator12.htm

Global wind capacity 2020 = 1200 GW

http://www.awea.org/news/news040331g04.html

and trends...

http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update24_data.htm

IAEA projection for nuclear capacity 2020 = 427 GW

http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2005/ebsp2005n004.html

a tall claim indeed....
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I support conservation, and renewables...
but I also support good comparisons, and have no problem with nuclear power.

using your links:
427 GW of nuke in 2020 is based on the most conservative estimates.
1200 GW of wind in 2020 is based on 'there are no technical, economic, or resource barriers', or, in other words, a very optimistic estimate of INSTALLED wind power. From AWEA's FAQ (pdf), 4261 MW of installed capacity produced 10B kW-h's of electricity, giving a loading factor of 0.27. If this value is used for the 1200 GW to be installed by 2020, we can expect the turbines to produce the equivalent of 324 GW of electricity (and no heat).
Similarly the actual electricity produced by 260 GW of PV would be closer to 40-50 GW of actual electricity (and no heat, though likely at peak demand).

So, in 2020, IF every thing goes in favor of wind and pv, they MIGHT produce 375 GW, while the most conservative estimate of nuclear production would be 385 GW.

Yes, a tall claim.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I was correct in my previous statement on capacity
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 07:42 PM by jpak
The actual amount of power produced by nuclear in the future also depends on a number of assumptions:

It assumes all existing nuclear power plants will operate to the end of their design lifespans (many US plants did not and there is concern whether the 30-odd US plants that have been relicensed for another 20 years operation will actually last that long) and maintain high plant capacities as they age.

AND solar thermal applications were not included with the wind and PV numbers (or biomass and biogas for that matter)...

:)

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Solar thermal is perpetually neglected.

...despite having a much shorter payback period. It's really pathetic.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I agree
Given that electric hot water heaters are probably the biggest juice gobblers in most American homes, solar thermal could displace a lot of fossil fuel generating capacity very economically and very quickly.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. ..On Earth Day, 1997, Metro Denver HFH dedicated its first "green home,"
designed to be energy efficient and environmentally responsible. The new design resulted in significant savings for the homeowner family -- their highest utility bill that winter was $45 ...

http://www.habitat.org/env/denver_project.aspx
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. How many more have been built
in the 8 years since?
Does the original project home still have all the feataures operational? And bills of less than $45/month?

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Denver HFH
From their newsletter:

"Every Habitat home built in metro Denver since 1999 has been
a five star-rated home, saving homeowners hundreds of dollars
a year in energy costs."

Another such page with an explanation of "five-star":

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CIS_EO_Inside_case1_38983_7.htm

...so they may not (or may) be going quite as far as with the
"green home" but they, and the commercial sector, do have active programs.

As to how well the technology ages -- well really the major parts are the furnace, AC, and glass. The former two will stay efficient as long as they are properly maintained. The latter, well, I guess it depends on the builders and materials providers. Generally when you build a home, you pick materials that last.

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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. I used a passive solar air heater to provide home heat
last winter. It cost us about sixty dolars in materials; we used lots of recycled materials to hold down cost and to recycle. We are now designing an expanded system to provide more of our heat. Together with a high efficiency home fireplace insert that we are installing, we hope to use virtually no gas to heat the house this winter.

Solar thermal is very inexpensinve, can use many existing materials to produce, and has an almost immediate economic payback.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Can you give more details please?
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Stuff like this:
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. The first one I built, I used an existing South facing window.
I built a frame into the window and glued recycled aluminum cans to styrofoam insulation. I backed it with some left over panelling from a home improvement project. Hole in the top and hole in the bottom and voila, it is producing heat. I used basement window and let the heat flow into a vent servicing the first floor connected with a piece of dryer exhaust hose.

The next one I build will be similar to the design you posted, except I am going to draw my air from outdoors. That will help with my allergies and keep fresh air in the hous during winter. I am also going to build a larger collector than that design. If it draws enough heat I may attach an exhaust fan. Instead of using the foil as my collector, I have been looking at recycled corugated metal. It should work easily and be more durable than foil. Have you tried building any yet? If so, do you have any design tips?
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Well, to me it seems a tad pricey....
But $27 will get you a 12x2 section of greenhouse flashing at home depot -- a bit cheaper if you get the PVC; I'm to understand the polycarbonate is better though. It's called "SunTuff" and is pretty durable, though if you fold it in half for transport you'll end up with some permanent "dings" along the corrugations. Another couple plastic sheets I looked at were those used for suspended ceiling flourescent fixtures which have a lense diffusion pattern in them and should take light from a larger angle -- of course those are not necessarily UV hardened, though, so they may yellow/harden over time.

If you're going to draw in outdoor air, a 12" lateral with a slant would seem a good length to ensure it is nice and warm (the overpriced commercial product is 4" and they recommend 3 joined end-to-end for this purpose.) But then, I live up here in cold MA. You may have to actively regulate airflow on windy days, even still. Certainly an outdoor intake is a much simpler/easier design.

I have a few sections of the SunTuf stuff for toying purposes, but not much in the way of woodworking tools, so it will be a while before I have a finished product. I'm thinking of using an old discarded ironing board for a heat collector/structural support. But mainly this winter I'll be looking to set up some tinfoil reflectors on the ground and beside the windows along with some black curtains. We can get away with that here without the neighbors complaining the house looks like a scrapyard.

What I want to know, is why can't we buy the small upper-floor vertical window units at a department store for $15, which is probably about what they'd cost to mass produce.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I agree that the commercially available units are drastically
overpriced. A simple window attachment unit should be very inexpensive to build and could heat a whole room. The cheapest I have found is around $500 for a small unit.

I looked at the suntuff material on your recomendation. That is the type of corugated material I want to use. The shape increases the surface area of the heat absorber and disrupts the air flow so taht air absorbs the heat. Do you have any idea how well it absorbs and holds heat? I think I can find some old corugated metal in a junkyard for next to nothing. If the heat absorbtion is similar, I may still go with corugated metal.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. SunTuf
As far as prefab units, CPV's unit is $270 after shipping, so not quite so bad as $500 but still way expensive, though likely it has a pretty optimal efficiency for what it is worth (cheap and 50% as efficient as it could theoretically be trumps expensive and optimized for my puposes. I don't have to optimize for small lawn area nor think about roof mounting.) See the thread I linked up further, in the comments. (Actually this discussion probably is better placed there.)

I have some of the transparent suntuff and some opaque that I was hoping to use as a heat absorber/middle section. Unfortunately the only "black" color they had is "solar grey" which is translucent. The "fully" opaque sheet I have is forest green, so it would need to be painted to get more heat.

I don't have a satisfactory box/window seal made for it yet, all I did was tape some sections together as a test, which didn't go well because outdoor breeze confounds testing. Still, my impression of the opaque sheet is that it heats pretty much evenly all the way through when exposed to sun, which means there is no differential from one side to the other to cause air flow. More insulation on the back would definitely be needed, which is a chore. Though it would probably work pretty well in an active forced air system or air intake system like you are building.

Since the SunTuf provides UV protection for plants, you could probably get away with the cheaper (wavy as opposed to trapezoidal) PVC for the bottom plate. That's a different brand name but should be on the shelf beside the SunTuf. Other advantage -- it's available in opaque black IIRC. Just you have to deal with the differing shapes.

(Which is why I chose the SunTuff, because the "roof joist" sections were available for SunTuf only. They offer an easy transition from the corregation to a flat surface at an angle -- perfect for internal-feed systems since sealing the window against the corrugation would involve a lot of foam shaping. One section was $12 and cut in quarters is enough to seal 4 ends, though it's an inch or two shy.)

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Filius Nullius Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. Nuclear power is immoral due to the deadly high-level waste generated
Edited on Mon Aug-22-05 09:17 PM by Filius Nullius
"In the half century of the nuclear age, the U.S. has accumulated some 30,000 metric tons of spent fuel rods from power reactors and another 380,000 cubic meters of high-level radioactive waste, a by-product of producing plutonium for nuclear weapons. None of these materials have found anything more than interim accomodation, despite decades of study and expenditures in the billions of dollars on research, development and storage," Chris G. Whipple, Can Nuclear Waste Be Stored at Yucca Mountain? Scientific American, June, 1996

There is simply no safe way to dispose of high-level nuclear waste. There is no location on the planet where it can be made completely safe from groundwater, earthquakes, explosions, terrorists, nuclear blackmailers, warfare and other hazards of which we may not have even dreamed yet.

Plutonium 239 is one of the deadliest substances on earth. It has a half life of 24.1 thousand years. The radiation is so potent that it takes 10 to 20 half lifes for it to be reduced to relatively safe levels. Let's assume for the sake of argument that we are talking about just ten half lives. That is 241,000 years, a quarter of a million years.

What civilization in human history has come even close to this? I believe the Chinese or Egyptians may hold the record for cultural longevity. But even they can claim only four or five thousand years. Both civilizations had numerous regime changes and were invaded and conquered from time to time. In the case of the Chinese, there were numerous incursions by Mongol invaders. They repeatedly overran the country and thereby initiated many of the royal dynasties that ruled China throughout most of its history.

In comparison, Americans tend to have a very limited sense of time. As a nation, we are only 229 years old. To many of us, that seems like a very long period of time, indeed. However, compared to a quarter of a million years, or even to 4,000 to 5,000 years, it is remarkably brief.

It is immoral to pass these dangers on to posterity and expect 10,000 generations who had nothing to do with generating the high level waste to safeguard it for such a vast period of time.

By the way, NNadir, pardon me if I am wrong, but don't you work in the nuclear power industry, or did you retire from it? I seem to recall your disclosing something about that in a prior thread. If so, you are hardly an impartial commentator and have a very obvious ax to grind.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Research the Integral Fast Reactor.
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/ifr/wastes.html

Here is one place to start.

Just about any radioactive element can be fissioned down to something stable eventually. Current nuclear reactors only fission uranium and sometimes plutonium. However the Integral Fast Reactor can recycle nearly all of its radioactive elements and burn them. The result is a waste that after 300-400 years is safer than the uranium ore dug out of the ground originally.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Is it more "immoral" than coal?
The amount of nuclear waste we have generated is small compared to other toxic wastes our society generates. Many of these wastes, such as the mercury found in coal, do not have any sort of "half life." These toxins last forever.

If you are looking for a religion join a church. But don't buy into the cult of anti-nuclearism, where plutonium is just another name for the devil.

I am an ex-member of the cult of anti-nuclearism. As a young man I wasted a substantial portion of my life doing research for this cult. I was convinced that nuclear power and nuclear weapons were going to kill us all. But I no longer believe that. Of all the ways we stupidly kill ourselves and our neighbors, nuclear power and nuclear weapons rank far down the list. Your friendly neighborhood coal-fired power plant does more damage to the environment and your fellow human beings than a nuclear plant. Our careless use of antibiotics has killed, and will continue killing, far more people than the nuclear power industry ever will.

The automobile is perhaps the most "immoral" technology we have in terms of the damage we do to ourselves and the natural environment. Surprisingly, anti-automobile cults are much rarer than anti-nuclear cults. Plutonium must be a sexier demon than gasoline.




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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Nuclear waste.
"The amount of nuclear waste we have generated is small compared to other toxic wastes our society generates."

The volume of al the nuclear waste produced from 1945 until today in the entire world would fit in one football stadium. Or so it has been reported anyway. Further more the French have built fully working "breeder reactors" which they use to recycle their nuclear waste. The breeder reactors take large quantities of low level waste (the stuff found in spent fuel rods) and refine it into small quantities of high level material. That recycled material is then once again put into the regular neclear power plant. Through this method of recycling we can produce absolutely mind boggling amounts of electricity (enough to power the whole country) while producing almost no waste. This is the best option we have to get the power we need without screwing the enviroment.
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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-23-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. Excellent post!
Thank you for exposing what a dead end solar power is compared to other energy sources. The output of even the most efficent solar cells just doesn't amount to a whole lot and they require far to much space to ever be economically effective in most of the world. We still need nongreen house producing energy sources though so what are we to do?

The solution is to copy France & Japan and to make nuclear power our primary energy source. Unlike wind or solar nuclear power actually can produce the massive amounts of energy our society consumes and it can do it without producing any green house gases or buying oil from middle eastern dictatorships. It makes absolutely no sense for us to be buying oil from people who want to kill us; we shouldn't be giving money to the Saudis or the Iranians yet we do every time we use an oil fueled power plant (which are the most common type of power plant in America. We need to do the responsible thing and convert the lion's share of our electrical power plants to nuclear power. This will be better for the enviroment, it will be better for our national security, and it will help improve our balance of trade because we won't have to import so much oil.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Most U.S. electricity comes from coal...
... then nuclear, then natural gas, then hydroelectric.

Many older oil burning power plants have been converted to use natural gas.

I do not believe the United States should "copy France & Japan." The United States government is wretchedly corrupt, thus it is very likely we cannot safely expand our nuclear generating capacity.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I don't get the "corruption" argument.
How does the existence of government corruption argue for one source of energy over another?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Imagine a nuclear plant built by corrupt and incompetent contractors...
...especially a breeder reactor or a fuel reprocessing plant of some sort.

I'd no sooner work in a nuclear plant run by friends of the Bush Administration than I would join the Marines and fight in Iraq.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. The US nuclear industry imports >75% of its uranium
Edited on Wed Aug-24-05 01:36 PM by jpak
Furthermore, global uranium demand is expected to outstrip supply by 2013.

If the US had to rely solely on its domestic uranium reserves (at $100 a pound), they would last only 26 years at the current rate of consumption.

Global uranium supplies will last ~40 years at the current rate of consumption.

Breeder reactors simply don't work.

Reprocessed uranium is, for all practical purposes, unusable.

Both reprocessed uranium and plutonium is exorbitantly expensive - as is the cost of spent fuel and HLW disposal.

Bottom line - nuclear power is unsustainable: period.

...and the "most cost" alternative to combat global warming.

...and who the fuck cares about nuclear proliferation anyway????

The assertion that solar is a dead end is also simply wrong.

PV is a distributed power source, most of the 3500 MW of global PV capacity is exists today as small (<10 kW) arrays.

Larger PV arrays (5-10 MW), however, are being built on a bimonthly basis in Germany.

Portugal is building a 116 MW PV array.

Global PV module production is currently >1250 MW per year and growing exponentially at ~35% per year.

Solar a "dead end"???? - the facts speak otherwise...







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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. We import uranium because we can.
NIMBY rules in the United States. Instead of fixing our problems here we export them.

I am very familiar with the issue of uranium mining on Native American lands.

Send me a PM sometime.



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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-24-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Let's play CALCULATION!!!!!!! Fun, fun, fun and more fun and then fun.
Let's calculate to see exactly how stupid the remark that uranium demand will outstrip supply in 2013 is.

To repeat this is a useless exercise for people who don't have a clue what a watt is or how to do addition, multiplication, subtraction or division, but it is lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of fun.

Speaking of fun, let's have some before we demolish the "uranium will be gone in 2013 argument."

Now anti-nuclear anti-environmental anti-radiation paranoids who know no science when they're sober, never mind when they're shit faced, like to pretend that the only nuclear material that can possibly used is U-235, because well, like I said, they know zero science. To avoid the smell of burning rubber from their pathetic little brains (which will respond with the usual dopey chanting in any case), let's be real, real, real, real stupid and pretend they are right: The only nuclear resource on the planet is the isotope U-235.

Now, we recognize that because they can't do "watts." We can tell this because we see them make statements in support of their "solar only" stupidity by shouting out loud that the world wide production of PV solar cells even in magic solar "watts" is pathetic. Apparently some of these people have no idea of the magnitude of the world energy/global climate change crisis. For instance, suppose someone tried comforting us by telling us that they had a magical system to produce magical energy and that each year we were able through careful prayer, meditation, appeals to Jesus, the blessed virgin, Buddha, and the Prophet Mohamed, to provide 1250 magical "megawatts" of this power each year.

Well, because we know how to add and subtract and multiply and divide, we can assess this magic very easily.

1250 "megawatts" = 1,250,000,000 megawatts = 1,250,000,000 J/sec.

Given that each day has 86400 seconds, (24 X 60 X 60 - don't try this at home if you can't do multiplication - it will just frustrate you) and the year has 365.25 days (yes there is a leap year day every four years and 1 divided by 4 is 0.25), we see that a year has 31,557,600 seconds. Now we can tell now calculate how much energy 1250 megawatts represents in a year: 31,556,600 seconds * 1,2500,000,000 J/s = 3.95 X 10^16 J.

Now, what is world energy demand for all sources and all uses? In 2001 it was about 411 exajoules (10^18J = 1 exajoule so 411 exajoulres is 4.11 X 20J). How much does 3.95 magic solar joules does 3.95 X 10 16 J represent? So what fraction of this demand would a 1250 "megawatt" manufacturing of solar cells represent? Don't do this at home if you can't do division (long or with a calculator) but the answer is" 3.95 X 10^15/4.11 X 20 = 0.0000960. Thus we can wait a trivial period of 10,420 years and IF (and only IF) nobody uses a single watt more than was used in 2001, and we only use magic "watts" that appear for about an hour a day on sunny days, and use energy only then).

http://www.undp.org/energy/docs/WEAOU_full.pdf

(See the table on page 28 of the pdf file to give world energy resources.)

Of course, if our magic system is a solar system where the capacity only runs at 15% capacity loading, we will have to wait 70,000 years, as small time to wait if we're waiting in the name of our religious faith.

Now, let's turn to fun with uranium and the claim that the world supply of uranium will be insufficient in less than 10 years.

Now I will use a unit of energy that will probably escape the comprehension of a religious twit who hides under the television set in order to avoid being struck by rays from (gasp terror terror horror horror scare scare) radioactive materials: The electron volt. Those of us who passed junior high school science know of course that an electron volt is just 1.602 X 10-19 joule (J).

Here is how much energy one atom of uranium yields when it is split: 200 MeV, or 200,000,000 eV according to this link.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/energy/fi/fi_bs/article_1173_en.htm

To avoid being as deceptive as a "solar only" twit, a "solar only" twit being a person who tries to represent 0.15 watts as 1.00 watt, I will clarify a bit, and refine this 200 MeV figure. Actually of the 200 MeV produced, about 10 MeV is in the form of neutrinos, which act very weakly with matter. Since neutrinos interact weakly they cannot be used a real energy. Thus the real energy recoverable as heat is actually 190 MeV.

How many atoms of uranium would it take to provide the entire world energy demand in total with no other source of energy other than nuclear used? Well first let's convert 190,000,000 eV to Joules. (Don't try this at home...) 190,000,000 ev X 1.602 X 10^18 J/eV = 3.04 X 10-11 J/atom fissioned.

Now let's see how many atoms are required for 4.11 X 10^20 J:

4.11 X 10^20J/3.04 X 10^-11 J/atom = 1.35 X 10^31 atoms.

Boy Wally, that sure sounds like a lot of atoms!!!!! (It is Beaver; it is!)

Now, again we are not speaking now to the members of the International Scientific Illiteracy Celebration Society, but a class of individuals known as scientists actually have a convenient device for counting atoms: It's called a balance or a scale.

People who can add, subtract, multiply and divide and who have also passed high school chemistry know that if you weigh a pure element and divide it's weight by it's atomic weight, and then multiply it by 6.02 X 10^23 (Avagodro's number) you will know how many atoms you have. Conversely, if one knows how many atoms one needs, you can find out how much weight of something is required to get that number of atoms. If one has Avogadro's number of atoms, one has a mole.

(Oh gee Mr. Wizard, how exciting!)

So how many moles of uranium would be required to meet one year's total, complete energy demand at the 2001 level, with no other energy source allowed? 1.35 X 10^31 atoms/6.02 X 10^23 atoms/mole = 22,400,000 moles.

(Gee Wally, that sure sounds like a lot of them mole things...)

Now we get complicated. For the benefit of dumb solar only twits with weak minds and very, very, very poor educations, we're going to pretend that the only atoms we can fission are those already fissionable. There are many, many, many fissionable atoms that are easy to make from uranium and thorium, but again, we're addressing the claims of twits, not scientists. It turns out that the only type of naturally occurring atom that is readily fissionable in an ordinary nuclear power plant (thermal neutrons) is U-235, which has an "atomic weight" of 235.0439231 grams per mole. http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ton/nuc11.html

How many grams would it take to supply all the world's energy supply at the 2001 level?

22,400,000 moles*235.04 grams per mole = 5,270,000,000 grams roughly.

(Gee wally, that's a lot of grams!

Divide by 1000 to get kilograms Beaver).

That's 5,270,000 kilograms.

(Gee Wally, that's still a lot of kilograms.

Divide by 1000 to get tons Beaver.)

That's right, to supply every damn watt on the planet at 2001 levels, no oil, no oil, no natural gas, no hydroelectric dams, no NIMBY generating wind farms, no dopey PV cells from fantasy land, it would require 5,270 metric tons of uranium-235.

How much uranium is on earth according to our best estimates? Here's one such number based on terrestrial (i.e. excluding seawater) ores obtainable at $130/kg:

http://www.inb.gov.br/english/reservasMundiais.asp

4,416,000 metric tons.

Of every 1000 atoms of uranium ore on the planet, 72 of them on average are uranium-235. Thus the total amount of U-235 on the planet is 0.0072 X 4,416,000,000 = 31,000 metric tons. Thus we see, that if every single joule of energy were obtained by nuclear means, world energy demand would consume all of the U-235 in six years.

However, nuclear energy, provides only roughly 29 exajoules of the world's energy supply right now or 7%. So if in deference to the completely insufferable middle class drunks comprising the International Scientific Illiteracy Celebration Society, we decided to build no other nuclear reactors and simply produce nuclear power at the same level, the supply based on existing U-235 alone would be 85 years.

I guess if you're too drunk to think, read, or work a calculator, just make stuff up.

However, that is just the most pessimistic estimate of reserves possible. Just as solar only twits claim - and it's just a lie - that 0.15 watts is one watt for their solar system - i.e. the best possible case - their irrational fear of all things radioactive is expressed in panic driven stupidity about the worst case if the word word "nuclear" is used.

Here is what it says in the foot note United Nations Development World Energy Assessment table of world nuclear resources:

f. Based on once-through uranium fuel cycles excluding thorium and low-concentration uranium from seawater.The uranium resource base is theoretically 60 times larger if fast breeder reactors are used.

Gee Wally.

Once through. Excluding Thorium. Excluding seawater.

According to the table, there are 55 billion tons oil equivalent of uranium if we are dopey and insist that we can only fission U-235, recycle nothing, and if we pass laws to prevent the collection of uranium from seawater, where 3-5 billion tons are found (100 times as much as on land), constantly replenished by undersea ores and by the weathering of granite, almost all of which contains uranium. This is in spite of the fact that the Japanese have demonstrated that using simple ion exchange, uranium can be easily recovered from this source at $200/kg.

However, if we multiply 55 billion tones oil equivalent by 60, we see that the reserves of land based uranium alone (not counting thorium) are 3,300 billion tons oil equivalent, or 1.38 X 10^23 J. This is 337 years of the world energy supply.

It is worth noting that the United States by the end of this decade will have accumulated about 75,000 metric tons of spent uranium fuel, which is about 95% uranium. The uranium in this fuel, completely fissioned, is enough to supply the entire world energy supply (2001 value) for 14 years.

The quantity of uranium in the sea, ignoring thorium is roughly 800,000 years worth of energy, ignoring the fact that the sea is saturated with respect to uranium, and will constantly be replenished by the dissolution of terrestrial and marine rocks.

It is believed, from analysis of basaltic lava, analysis of meteorites, and analysis of the earth's heat output that the uranium content of the earth is around 1.1 trillion tons, enough to provide the world with 400 exajoules of energy for 20 billion years. The thorium content is about 4 times as large, accounting for yet another 80 billion years worth of energy, were it available for fission. (See Veerhoogen, Energetics of the Earth, National Academy of Sciences Press 1980, pg 23-24) Of course, not all of this uranium and thorium will ever be available to load in reactors. However the estimate for the uranium content of upper mantle rocks is roughly 15 ppb. These rocks make it to the surface continually in natural processes. The Mauna Loa volcano, for instance can put out 4 million metric tons of lava in an hour. There are 1500 active volcanoes in the world right now, all putting out uranium containing rock. Of course, uranium is continually released through the weathering of rocks deposited by volcanoes that died out billions of years ago. The estimated crustal abundance of uranium is thought to be 2.7 ppm, much lower than in mantle rock. This suggests that, with the earth's crustal mass estimated to be 2.6 X 10^22 kg, that the amount of uranium with which to recharge depletion of the ocean is represented by 70 billion tons, enough to supply 400 exajoules of energy for 13 million years. In addition, the crust is about 9.6 ppm thorium. This suggests that there is 250 billion tons of thorium in the crust, enough to supply 50 million years of energy at 400 exajoules/year.

And again, these elements are both recharged from the mantle.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/earth.html

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele090.html

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele092.html

The argument could be made, one supposes, that crustal availability does not make for economic recovery. This is true, certainly for scandium, rhodium, and say, erbium. However, the energy value of thorium and uranium is so extraordinarily high that the cost of even elaborate separations still has essentially trivial effects on the cost of nuclear energy. Uranium fuel at $1000/kg is not much different than uranium fuel at $50/kg. A single kilo of uranium has the energy content of 670,000 gallons of gasoline. Thus even at $2,000/kg, uranium is the equivalent of gasoline at 0.001 dollars (a tenth of a cent) per gallon. Nuclear energy shares a characteristic with solar energy. The cost of fuel has little to do with overall cost. Like the solar power so mystically promoted by weak minded nutcases (who cannot after 40 years of hype demonstrate anything but a sustained ability to produce even more weak minded hype), nuclear energy's cost is almost wholly tied to the cost of the device used to convert it to electricity.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. LOL!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 01:04 PM by jpak
Same old infantile Larouchian name calling...

Same old tired Freshman Chemistry Parlor Tricks...

...and still wrong.

Global uranium demand IS expected to outstrip supply by 2013.

Read it and weep...

http://lists.myspinach.org/pipermail/urg/2004-May/001513.html

...and the same old Larouchian whack job fairy tales about extracting uranium from seawater...

The concentration of elemental uranium in seawater is 3.3 µg per liter.

The US nuclear industry consumes ~24000 kg of uranium oxide per year.

To satisfy US uranium demand (alone) you would have to process ~7300 km3 of seawater each year.

And that's assuming an (unrealistic) 100% extraction efficiency.

To put that into perspective, the volume of Chesapeake Bay is "only" 51 km3 and the mean annual discharge of the Mississippi River is "only" 536 km3 per year.

Not only would this crackpot scheme consume more energy than it would yield...

It would be major environmental disaster.

Twittery indeed...

:rofl:









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