Germany to fund new coal plants with climate change fund cash

[Yo_Mama]

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110713-36277.html

A spokeswoman said it was necessary as the government switches from nuclear to other renewable energy sources and added that the money would promote the most efficient plants possible.

Funding for the initiative is limited to five percent of the energy and climate change fund’s annual expenditure between 2013 and 2016.

I'm reading a lot of controversy over the interim strategy, and how to fund it. Everyone seems agreed on the final goal, but they do seem to be in disarray at the moment about the next five years.

The part about the new gas plants makes sense - these are supposed to be the highly flexible ones that will work well interlaced with wind power inputs.

It looks like Datteln might go ahead:
http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=6583

Part of the push is to build new, more efficient coal plants that will produce more energy for the same emissions. A lot of controversy over all this, though. Even over the planned high voltage lines.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. They need to partner up with FuelCellEnergy.... it sounds like they could use their

input on this one.

[Yo_Mama]

2. An interesting suggestion

http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/dfc3000.php

At the moment my mind is a bit boggled from reading through all the controversy (I don't see how they can get away from the new high voltage lines - right now they are rerouting through neighboring grids in other countries, and the other countries are getting a bit perturbed because they say at some point they'll need that transmission capacity themselves in the winter).

It DOES seem like it might be time to think outside the box a bit.

Do you know how much those cost?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Ahhhhhh nope. However some hospitals are using them as back up generators, Japan

had installed some for I forget what, what is good is that they can be installed here and there creating a less centralized generation scheme. Fuel Cell Energy has a large grant for clean coal technology I believe from the DOE. I think they will be around for a long long time. They also have a home cogen unit around 7kw if memory serves. The excess heat can be/is used to heat your water.

[kristopher]

3. Do you appreciate that there is a difference between "wants to" and "will"?

The only thing they "will do" is lose their majority. There really isn't a lot of doubt that the public wants renewables built out now. They don't want nuclear or coal no matter how desperate Merkel etal is to force it on them.

"The German government wants to...
"The plan has come under stiff criticism.."

A new public involvement process (Bürgerbeteiligungsverfahren) shall now be started. Following this process a decision shall be taken whether to initiate proceedings with the state planning authority to obtain permission to deviate from the state planning objectives.

Do you realize that you seem to be almost desperately hoping that Germany will build coal plants?

[Yo_Mama]

5. You're a bit confused.

I feel somewhat detached emotionally from the process, probably because I was struggling cognitively to absorb some of the more technical details about the line transmission into which I stumbled.

No, I am not hoping anything. I am intensely curious as to what they will work out. Germany has put a lot of money and considerable technical creativity into their effort to develop low carbon energy generation. Because they are further ahead with the process, they are dealing with a bunch of legal and engineering issues that our country has not yet begun to address.

For instance, even a few months ago the very controversial CCS initiative seemed likely to be legislatively sidelined, but now maybe not:
http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=6738

The German public wants no nukes. It wants reliable electricity. It wants environmentally clean sources of energy. It wants not to pay too much for energy. These desires are going to have to be balanced out. The costs of what they are doing are a real factor in public acceptance:
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2010/12/20/germanys-renewable-energy-costs-threaten-public-support-zew-center-says/
http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/ElectricPower/8074895

Even the Green party has been squawking about the price increases:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6079262,00.html
Costs were a factor even before the nuclear shutdown:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-04/merkel-s-nuclear-embrace-earns-derision-as-german-clean-power-costs-climb.html
Note that costs were estimated at 22.9 cents (euro cents) per kwh in January.
As of April, it was up to the 24/25 cent range:
http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic

The whole CCS struggle alone is very interesting, and I can't help but believe that the compromises that Germany works out are going to be highly relevant to other countries.

[kristopher]

6. You are aware that a rightwing government is promoting the coal and nuclear aren't you?

New E.ON CEO Teyssen Supports Nuclear Power Extension and Datteln Project
Published on May 7, 2010

E.ON AG’s new CEO Johannes Teyssen continued on the course of his predecessor Wulf Bernotat with respect to nuclear and coal. He supported the extension of the life-span of German nuclear power plants as well as E.ON’s coal-fired power plant project in Datteln at the annual shareholder meeting.

“I fail to see how Germany can do without nuclear energy in the short-term, if energy supply and climate protection shall remain affordable”, Mr Teyssen said. E.ON reportedly sold residual capacities of its shut down nuclear power plant in Stade to its competitor RWE AG so that RWE can operate its Biblis A longer. Furthermore, E.ON is presently modernizing its nuclear power plants in Sweden for a total operation time of 60 years.

Mr Teyssen also defended E.ON’s construction project of a coal-fired power plant in Datteln, North Rhine-Westphalia. It would replace older power plants, thus minimizing CO2 emissions by 1.7 million tons per year. This would be the biggest single contribution to greenhouse gas emission reductions in the whole of North Rhine-Westphalia, he said.

The new CEO highlighted E.ON’s stable earnings in 2009. E.ON’s adjusted EBITDA reached EUR 13.5 billion and was thus about 1% higher than in 2008. It’s adjusted EBIT amounted to EUR 9.6 billion, which was 2.3% lower than a year earlier. Sales fell by 6% in 2009 to just under EUR 82 billion. Given these stable earnings, the executive and supervisory board proposed a dividend at prior-year level of EUR 1.50 per share. As Mr Teyssen pointed out, E.ON offers the second highest dividend yield (5.5%) of all DAX 30 companies...

http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=2673




1) The CCS bill was passed now because every country in the EU was required to pass one by a deadline of a few days ago. It does not move CCS forward as it only calls for planning a predetermined number of CCS demonstration projects.

2) Wind-watch is a well known rightwing antiwind website with ties to the coal industry. It would be appreciated if you'd not post their links here.

3) Your Platts link doesn't address what the public thinks, and it is rather dated. The polling currently shows that a strong majority is perfectly willing to pay to move away from nuclear. The environment ministry says getting to 50% renewables by 2020 is doable and the cost would not be high. From your DW link: "But representatives from Germany's renewable energy industry point out that while the switch to cleaner energy is costly, it only makes up for 0.2 percent of an individual household's outgoings."

4) Your interest seems fixed on trying to convince people that shutting down nuclear means more coal.

[Yo_Mama]

8. It's got nothing to do with a rightwing government

It has to do with cost (the gas plants are pretty expensive) and keeping the lights on.

Here is what I am reading in German-language sources.
-Germany is routing power south to compensate for the shut nuclear plants through neighboring grids. These countries are worried about what happens this winter, because those grids may fail the transmission needs, producing blackouts in these other countries.
-The current plan to avoid winter blackouts is to restart one reactor and to shut down auto companies if necessary. This is causing the auto companies to scream. They have considerable political clout.
-Gas in Germany comes mostly from Russia, and Russia has recently played political hardball with gas supplies. This is making it very difficult for Germany to build those gas plants. Not only will they be very expensive to operate, but there is a security-of-supply problem.
-So they are going to build coal plants, but it will be several years before they can get enough of them online to deal with the winter supply problem.
-Finally, Germany needs to significantly upgrade its internal grid to transmit power, but it can't get that done quickly either.

This has nothing to do with politics. Really. Inevitably it will be a political issue, but that's because it is a real issue.

Germany has had very little success with the drive to wind power. They reached a capacity restriction. Regardless, they intend to press forward and figure out how to make it work. But they know they have to build a lot of shielding capacity regardless, and they can't build wind power fast enough to compensate for the shut nuclear plants either, not that it would consistently. The more wind power they build, the more of these plants they have to build.

As for the CCS bill, it wasn't passed. It now goes to parliament for approval. It is significant because the earlier version allowed the local governments to pass a bill saying they wouldn't have any; this version does not contain that provision. CCS is a huge issue in Germany because of safety fears.

[FBaggins]

9. Keeping the lights on???

Don't you know that's a myth spread by the nuclear industry???!!!

[kristopher]

10. It has everything to do with politics and money.

You have yet again presented the issue as one where you dismiss their primary solution - renewable sources - as if it doesn't even exist.

Every post you make is presenting the RIGHT WING talking points that are meant to preserve the profits of the utility giants that are being brought to heel by the move to renewables. Do you really expect them to encourage the Green plan to move the country even further away from dependence on them?

Seriously do you trust petroleum industry propaganda as much as you clearly trust the coal/nuclear industry propaganda?

[wtmusic]

7. They're in disarray because it's dawning on them

that their kneejerk reaction will turn their country into an ecological nightmare.

"The part about the new gas plants makes sense", does it?

"Analysts say that German utilities would not invest in large-scale gas power capacity increases before it sharply increased its import capacities, and coal was therefore the fossil fuel of choice for years to come.

Market price developments in recent weeks also favors coal over gas."

http://www.thegwpf.org/energy-news/2754-forget-global-warming-germany-goes-back-to-coal.html