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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 09:43 AM
Original message
Aussie biodiesel plant eyes plastic waste as feedstock.


...though the plastic-based stuff isn't technically biodiesel.




The low-sulphur plastic fuel could be made from a range of non-PET materials, including meat trays, crop wrapping and contaminated bottles.

The company has secured an exclusive Australia and New Zealand deal with Ozmotech, which developed the plastic-to-diesel technology.

Axiom expects to be producing 70 million litres of biodiesel and 11 million litres of the higher-margin low-sulphur fuel by 2006-07.



http://www.railpage.com.au/news-3045.htm
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Plastic...Does a body good.
Not!
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. i don't think they mean feedstock for animals...
i think they mean feedstock for their bio-diesel plant...funny wording for that tho.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. This plant will not produce biodiesel. It will instead produce FT diesel.
FT diesel is not carbon neutral. Biodiesel is.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Heh.

The plant will produce both. It also has a biomass program. Read again.




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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. What I mean to say is it won't produce biodiesel from plastic.
The processes are completely different. These are in essense, two plants on one sight. One is a biofuels plant, the other is not.

Plastic to energy plants are a pretty old idea. They are economic only when the price of oil is very high. Many of them failed in early years when the price of crude oil fell. They should do better now, since I really don't think oil prices are coming down all that much.

Like it or not, plastic is sequestered carbon dioxide and of course, are petroleum products. Except from plastics like cellophane and a few others, few are derived from biological sources.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. So this is different from the thermodepolymerization process?
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 05:26 PM by amandabeech
Changing World Technologies once claimed that their process produced the most "oil" when fueled with plastic. Of course, they've made lots of claims.


On edit: I'm familiar with F-T's drawbacks icw coal-to-diesel.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No. This is a thermal depolymerization process.
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 06:38 PM by NNadir
However the intermediates produced are not monomers like ethylene, but is carbon monoxide and hydrogen.

With this mixture one can make almost anything, diesel, DME, methane (natural gas), gasoline, new intermediates for new plastics. The choice depends on economics.

The Changing World process, it's economic and environmental failure aside, is exactly the same idea. In fact there are lots and lots and lots of "garbage to energy" schemes, all of which are dependent on the same idea.

The Changing World technology is not especially new, but the marketing made it seem as such.

My stated derision for Changing World aside, I am very hopeful about syn gas technologies in general, if they are greenhouse gas neutral. Those involving plastic and coal are not greenhouse gas neutral. Those involving biomass are.

Direct fixation of carbon dioxide through hydrogenation is also feasible.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you for your explanation.
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 08:39 PM by amandabeech
So do you favor recycling our various organic landfill components (except that which can be composted for use as fertilizer) in one of these processes?

Am I correct in assuming that you favor using nuclear power, either through electrolysis or one of the proposed new designed reactors, to supply the hydrogen for rehydrogenization of carbon dioxide into more useful or more easily handled substances?
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No. Electrolysis is a poor option for hydrogen production irrespective
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 09:28 PM by NNadir
of the source of the electricity.

But yes, I am in favor of high temperature nuclear reactors using one or more of the high temperature thermolysis of water reactions.

The hydrogenation of carbon dioxide is well understood, but an important caveat is that no scheme for the industrial removal of carbon dioxide from air has yet proved economic for the production of fuels. As I've written elsewhere, as an intermediate step, I might be willing to accept of the capture of carbon dioxide from coal fired power plants for hydrogenation. This would have the effect of removing all of the carbon dioxide input currently resulting from the burning of petroleum products. I note that biomass is also a source of carbon - and where it is available, environmentally acceptable, and economic, it can also be transformed into syn gas.

However we know that the reduction (of which hydrogenation is a form) of carbon dioxide from air can be driven by equilibrium shifting - this is what plants do all the time when they produce glucose. What is required is an input of energy, which in the case of plants is provided by the sunlight.

As we all know from lots of hype over the years, an industrial process using sunlight is also theoretically a source of this same hydrogen. The problem is that the direct production of hydrogen from sunlight is far more technologically primitive than the use of nuclear power. Thus any industrial scheme is likely to come too late - assuming it isn't too late already.

Nuclear power on the other hand is well understood and is already industrial and has been so for many decades. All of the failures have been analyzed, and few, if any, have been repeated. The physics of nuclear reactors are clearly understood and have been tested by industrial experience and scale up. The problem with nuclear power is not technical at all - it is political and perceptual.

I've speculated to myself about why this is for some years now, since the anti-nuclear position is so clearly irrational. (I note that I was anti-nuclear until after the events at Chernobyl.) I suspect that some of the reasons behind it probably have more to do with the way that the word "nuclear" was introduced to common parlance, things which involved the events at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The impressions were further reified by the events of the cold war, the most chilling of which was the Cuban Missile crisis. The use of commercial nuclear power was trivial at that time, and so there was no balancing between the military and civilian applications - the military clearly outweighed the commercial.

As I frequently state, the military technology has little to do with nuclear power technology, any more than refineries have to do with the existence of napalm or than molecular biology has to do with germ warfare. In the latter case, had the science of molecular genetics been announced as the result of a plague used in wartime, the public perception of the technology may have been very different than it currently is.

(I note that some people have strong negative reactions to biotechnology as well as nuclear technology. A class of people exists who are known as Luddites. These people will oppose any technology less than 100 years old - unless of course the technology is made to seem harmless by being insignificant in its application.)

I've also heard that people often do not fear what is most dangerous, but rather they fear what they themselves do not control. For example, it is infinitely more dangerous to drive your car to Walmart or Burger King than it is to live next to a nuclear power plant. No one in the United States has died from a nuclear power plant whereas tens of thousands of die each year driving their cars and many more are maimed and injured. The situation is even worse with respect to smoking. The difference in perception of course is that most people have never operated a nuclear power plant, whereas many people have experience with driving cars and lighting butts. Even though it is not really true, they feel as if they control what happens to them in a car; just as they imagine they can control their smoking.

I do feel that we are exhausting the luxury of being able to indulge irrationality. We must take action now with the tools available now, irrespective of people's fertile imagining of this possible disaster or that possible disaster. I rather think that the case is like worrying about getting sunburn someday at the beach while a powerful hurricane is smashing things just outside the window.

We do not, I believe, have much time left unless we act forthwith.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I've read many, many of your posts,
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 09:50 PM by amandabeech
at least to the extent that a non-scientist can.

For the record, I see both the positive and negative aspects of nuclear power that have been discussed in this forum seemingly since day one. In my opinion, we will have to increase nuclear due to global warming and the decreased quantity and quality of fossil fuels to meet basic transportation and mobile power needs, such as in agricultural equipment.

Although I would like to believe that solar, wind, hydro, etc. could supply power for a materially reduced but sufficient life, I just don't see that happening everywhere absent energy storage technologies that I do not believe are even in the demonstration phase.

That said, I am leary about safety in marginally regulated, merchant nuclear generators. In today's business religion, I believe that there is too much temptation to skimp on safety, and my fears are result from a talk I had with the shop steward at a nuclear plant a couple of years ago. In other words, I don't think that laissez faire and nuclear plants are a good pairing. I think that we need a very different mindset and ownership and regulatory structure in order to maintain long-term safety.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think that an independent regulatory authority is an important factor.
Edited on Mon Oct-10-05 10:30 PM by NNadir
I note that this exactly what was missing at Chernobyl. In fact the regulatory personnel, the government, the construction crews, everybody had an interest in seeing the power plant up and running, since all of their bonuses depended on meeting the goals of the Five Year Plan.

In fact, the Chernobyl accident occurred during a test, a test that was supposed to have been completed before the reactor ever went on line, and even then the protocol of the test was not even remotely enforced. In fact it was ad hoc, and conducted on the night shift by electrical engineers in the absence of most of the nuclear engineering team.

I am a Democrat, not a socialist. To me being a Democrat means that I believe in well regulated capitalism. I do not believe that the only issue that must be addressed in industry is the profit issue. The public interest must be balanced, and issues of human dignity must be an important part of any equation. Although I hold strict socialism in contempt - because of events like Chernobyl - I hold laissez-faire - the dopey musings of Ayn Rand types for instance - in equal contempt. My view is that the government has the obligation to protect the common space to the maximal extent while still providing for human progress and general economic and physical health.

All of that said, I am not sanguine about making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Energy in general is NOT regulated. The most dangerous energy industry is the fossil fuels industry. It is neither possible to make the fossil fuels good or perfect. They are deadly, as is becoming increasingly clear.

I note that it will never be possible to make the nuclear industry perfect either. All energy involves risk. (The risk of having NO energy at all, though, is even higher.) The wise option is not to pretend that risk elimination is achievable but to embrace risk minimization as a realistic goal. It is well understood that - in part owing to its highly concentrated nature - nuclear energy is risk minimized with respect to its alternatives. Viewed from the oft discussed question of waste - to the extent that so called "nuclear waste" exists at all - it is simply easier to control a few hundred thousand metric tons of a dense solid than it is to control hundreds of billions of tons of gas. There shouldn't be much mystery in that, but somehow there is.
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eclipsenow.org Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Back on subject
This article started discussing the plastics to fuel delusion.

Why so harsh? Because of one word... Volumes. I don't know how your media is coping with the geological reality of being so close to peak oil, but our media downunder is in denial. Biofuels are going to save us... no wait, that's plastic fuels... no wait, it's hydrogen.

But can we scale these up to account for the 3 to 5% decline in oil production worldwide that will occur the other side of Hubbert's peak? What if the peak is harsher? What if Saudi Arabia's water cut suddenly rises even higher, and Ghawar loses too much pressure?

I don't know about the level of delusion in your country, but our media rants about biofuels or plastics to diesel programs like they are the next oil. No wonder the average citizen has trouble understanding the level of the permanent oil crisis we are about to find ourselves in = around 2008, 2009 (I expect the price to come down for 2006 & 2007 due to some projects coming online.)

Let me set the record straight for Australia... if we took ALL our wheat, including the 80% of it we export for other countries, and turned it ALL into ethanol, we'd have 9% of our liquid fuel requirements and no Weet Bix. (Or bread, pasta, etc).

There just is not enough LAND to grow enough ethanol / biodiesel etc.

Then there are the questions of sustainability of the process. How does all the NPK get back into the soil? How do we harvest it? What is the ERoEI? How much more fuel do you consume TRANSPORTING the fuel from the biofuels / ethanol farm to the point of use?

Delusional.

I agree that nuclear power is better than no energy... no energy could well prove the Malthusians right... and I just finished writing a piece about why I am NOT a Malthusian, but about halfway between the peakniks and the Doomers.

BTW — if we were to replace half the world's current use of electricity with nuclear, how long would uranium reserves last? I once worked out that Australia's known reserves would only last 10 years if we tried to supply the whole world's electricity, but what is global electricity demand v global reserves.... and how long would providing half of that last?
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Panacea.

Stop looking for panaceas. Energy has always been, and will always be, a hodgepodge of small solutions. Moreso in the future, without oil dominating.

And who would make ethanol from wheat? Horrible crop for that.



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