Big Renewables cannot replace Big Oil.

[4dsc]

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/1778/Renewable_Energy_Too_Little_Too_Late

Damn good read here!!


..what is critical to understand at the outset is that renewables are not being viewed as a way to transition away from, or even to limit, the consumption of hydrocarbons, but rather to supplement over-consumption.

...With renewables being used to supplement over-consumption and promote SUSTAINABLE DESTRUCTION, there is no possible way renewable energy can offer a path to true sustainability. A massive shift in human consciousness is a prerequisite to any hope of technological mitigation of the Peak Oil crisis.

...The cruelest of all myths concerning renewable energy is known as “the hydrogen economy.”

[papau]

1. Power down is only solution - but not profitable - and CIA/GOP back

fake solutions via American Council On Renewable Energy (ACORE) :-(

A report that that will not make it to the mass media.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. Is the ACORE report available at all?

Where can I get a copy?

--p!

[papau]

6. Here are some ACORE Forum dates and a PDF of a presentation

http://www.acore.org/

RENEWABLE ENERGY IN AMERICA – PHASE II POLICIES - October 17-18, 2005

Following the 2004 Forum “The Call for Phase II” ACORE will present the second forum in part of a three year series on October 17-18, 2005, highlighting innovative renewable energy utilization policies that results in the creation of jobs, enhancement of national security and protection of the environment and human health.

The 2 day Forum will be held at the Cannon Caucus Room in the Cannon House Office Building.

http://www.acore.org/pdfs/05PhaseII_Chicago.pdf

[Dogmudgeon]

8. Thanks!

I can't speak for the MSM, but I'll be reading it.

--p!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[htuttle]

3. The pre-petroleum 1800's were hardly primitive

Before cheap petroleum muscled all the other forms of energy out of the way, there were both electric and biofuel powered vehicles dominating the market (and some darned nifty steam cars!). The original diesel and the original Ford were both designed to run on biofuel.

If we had never 'found' petroleum (or never adopted it as a transportation fuel), automobiles and such still would have spread and advanced, but they'd get a hell of a lot better mileage than anything does today. Add modern technology and advances in engineering and manufacturing into the mix, and it looks less and less like the 1800's.

100 mpg cars could easily be the average, if we are capable of being satisfied with a 40 mph top speed. This isn't theory -- look at any 12 hp 'minicab' puttering around the streets of Calcutta today: 40 mph top speed, 80-100 mpg mileage. Nothing forces us to drive 3 ton, overpowered behemoths...

I'm just saying that a little efficiency can go a long way, and a lot of efficiency changes the feasibility formulas regarding how much we actually use nowdays versus how much fuel we really NEED. We as a society are incredibly and awesomely wasteful.

The author's right in that traditional established capital will probably be more hindrance than help in getting there, though.

on edit:
One last point: The biggest difference between the world of the 1800's and the post-petroleum world we are going into is that there are a hell of a lot MORE of us now. Our biggest problem is not going to be getting to work, but how we feed everyone without petroleum fertilizers... Due to this fact alone, it's going to be hard to avoid a die-off of several billion people.

[400Years]

4. under that freeway there used to be a garden

[DJ MEW]

7. Mini cab's

Can you buy those in the states anywhere. I have a big commute to work everyday but don't have to go on the Freeway's so a 40 mph top speed would be fine for me.

I agree the world is over populated and over consumed. I think the die off that you are talking about is going to come from heat related deaths in poor thrid world countries and ghetto area's of the industrialized world, basically anyone that can't afford to be in air conditioning.

[htuttle]

9. Sure

http://www.bajajusa.com/3-wheelers.htm

They have three different kinds (rickshaw, pickup truck and panel 'van').

I saw one in person last week at a scooter dealership -- they're kind of nifty.

[NNadir]

10. Of course, in 1800, the earth's population was not over 6 billion.

The per capita energy demands of 1800 were of course much lower, comparable one would guess to the demands of a modern day Nigerian.

Life expectancy in Nigeria is a little over 43 years.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200509260160.html

Of course, if everyone tried to live like Nigerians live (not that the Nigerians live that way by choice) we would not have to worry too much about the fact that 8 billion people each consume less than 8 watts of power on average. I rather think that the new environmental problem might be how to dispose of 7.5 billion dead bodies.

People like to focus on how dangerous energy is, and they are right, energy is dangerous. However the absence of energy is even more dangerous.

I note, since the renewables industry is still tiny and largely insignificant on a grand scale, it remains to be tested whether it is environmentally sustainable or safe either. For instance, the much hyped biofuels industry depends of course on agriculture. In a time of rapid global climate destabilization it is probably a poor bet to assume that there will continue to be agricultural surpluses to provide any capacity for biofuels.

We are at a stark fork in the road, and no path ahead is well paved and easy to travel. There is going to be tragedy. Energy efficiency is just as important as it has always been, but people who pretend that the matter can be addressed by efficiency and the completely unproven and poorly scaled renewables industry alone, are selling either a Nigerian lifestyle or coal.

If the renewables as savior claim could prove otherwise, a significant renewables industry would already exist and not just in rich countries with big subsidies available, but everywhere. Everybody loves renewables. Renewables are sexy. Renewables are cool. People have been praising the potential and hope of renewables for more years than are probably represented by the average age of DUers. Renewables have just one, and only one tiny little problem: They just don't work very well.

Coal, on the other hand, will kill us for sure, and the mimicking Nigeria might extend our time a little longer, but with a little common sense - including broad promotion and practice of family planning and, as I often point out, increasing the status of women, providing decent health care, the encouragement of secular government, increase in education - and of course by constant refrain, by the use of nuclear energy, we can do much much better than either Nigeria or coal.

There is a third thing that is as deadly as coal or the Nigerian lifestyle, a third thing that is sure to kill us. It's called Denial. Like they say, it ain't a river in Egypt.

[dcfirefighter]

11. Conservation must play a Major role

And, imo, the only surefire way to ensure conservation is to make energy expensive. Instead of subsidizing 'green' energy, collect externalities on polluting energy.

The root solution is to 'share the commons'.

Make people compensate each other for the use of their commonwealth. If you want to dump a million tons of CO2 into my atmosphere, you need to pay me for damages.

Such a scheme would raise the price of energy. If the revenue due to commonwealth use were returned directly, in shares, to the population, such a scheme would not pinch the poor.

Low energy users, the poor included, would receive more in their share of commonwealth revenues than they spent on commonwealth use fees.

The practical application of this would be a national carbon (as well as mercury, sulfur, etc.) tax, with international trading rules; these taxes would fund a monthly demogrant.

[skids]

12. So is it "conservation" or "renewables"...

...if I use a solar air space heater, geothermal ground source, or solar hot water system?

Just wondering about opinions on that semantic...

[dcfirefighter]

13. Those are renewables, uh

but maybe they're conservation.

Solar air space heater = renewables. But to make it work, you probably insulated your house very well, which was conservation.

Geothermal ground source (heat pump) = conservation. It's a very efficient airconditioner and heater.

Solar Hot Water = renewables, with the same caveat as the air space heater.