Toyota Preps 2 More Hybrids For 06 Markets, Rivals Carp - Reuters

[hatrack]

DETROIT - Toyota Motor Corp. pushed the hybrid envelope further this week by unveiling two high-profile cars equipped with the powertrain at the annual Detroit auto show, but competitors responded by cranking up the volume to promote rival clean-engine technologies.

Japan's top auto maker has gained a reputation as a "green" company with its popular Prius and other gasoline-electric hybrids, and is keen to see the technology take off globally. After selling about 250,000 hybrid vehicles globally last year, Toyota is targeting sales of 400,000 units in 2006 with the addition of versions of the Lexus LS and Toyota Camry hybrids - the two brands' flagship sedans.

"It is clear today that hybrid technology has moved solidly into the mainstream especially among consumers who are environmentally aware, and want to make a difference for future generations," Don Esmond, senior vice president at Toyota Motor Sales USA., said at the Camry hybrid's launch at the North American International Auto Show here this week.

But rivals sought to tone down the hype, citing high costs to manufacturers and consumers and claiming "inflated truths" about vastly improved mileage. Hybrids twin a conventional combustion engine and an electric motor to save fuel. "I hate selling cars at a loss," Nissan Motor Co. and Renault SA Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn told reporters, saying hybrids were not a profitable proposition. Nissan will bring out its first hybrid with the Altima sedan later this year, but says it was only because average fleet fuel economy regulations in California require it.

EDIT

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/34451/story.htm

[Mountainman]

1. Japan forced the U.S. auto makers to build compact cars back in the

late 60's and 70's when all they wanted to build was the ever longer sedan and station wagon. The Japanese compact were ridiculed back then but soon they took over a large part of the market. I remember how they told us that compact cars were unsafe in an accident but the cost of fuel trumped that.

[bananas]

2. the govt had to bail out GM and the K-car was born.

[hatrack]

3. Chrysler, wasn't it? nt

.

[bananas]

5. You're right, Chrysler, and that socialist hero, Lee Iacocco

A lot of people wanted him to run for president.

'he was also the "moving force," as one court put it, behind the notorious Ford Pinto'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Iacocca

'Mission Statement
'The Iacocca Foundation was founded in 1984 by Lee Iacocca in memory of his late wife, Mary K. Iacocca, who died of diabetic complications in 1983. Our primary purpose is to fund innovative and promising diabetes research programs and projects that will lead to a cure for the disease and alleviate complications caused by it.'
http://www.iacoccafoundation.org/

[rfkrfk]

4. are these cars offered for sale in Germany, UK, etc ?

are these cars for sale in countries with high
gasoline tax? the article has no mention of that issue.

I getting sorta tired of, the US has to be lead customer for everything

[phantom power]

6. I gather that in Europe they just favor smaller engines/cars. And diesel.

I'm trying to figure out this thing you have against being a "lead customer." I mean, if you don't want to be an early-adopter that makes sense. So buy a car that uses technology you trust. What's to get upset about?

[rfkrfk]

7. here is my complaint...

I have a suspicion that...

if Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, etc allowed, hybrids,'stong hybrids',
electric cars, ,
that their economies would collapse, for the lack of tax revenue.

there was something similiar in the 'California Electric Car Era',
of circa 1999.

keep in mind that these countries have, by US standards,
insane vehicle inspection laws.
if you put used fryer grease in your diesel --> hard prison time

all this leads to the unfortunate situation of ...
the best place to begin selling 'partly electric cars'
is stopped by the greed of gov't pencilheads for gasoline tax money.

leaving the US motoring
public to be the lead customer, meanwhile, the Japanese
don't even sell the things in Japan

[phantom power]

8. I see...

My current view on Europe is that hybrid tech would not really have that much of an impact on fuel consumption. Fuel has been very expensive there for a long, long time (by American standards), and they already use less fuel per capita than we do, by virtue of the kinds of autos they buy, and their driving habits, etc.

It's the old saw: a hybrid doesn't offer much improvement over a well-designed small diesel, except in the realm of extra short-term power or acceleration.

So, my theory is that Europe isn't a big market for hybrids because they've long since adopted other means for using less fuel, by economic necessity. A corrolary to my theory is that even if they did introduce hybrids, it wouldn't affect their tax-base, since their fuel usage wouldn't change.

Regarding Japan, I could swear I read that they did sell their first hybrids there, starting in 1997. Things may have changed, but back in the 80s they were infamous for "beta-testing" their electronics products on their own citizens, then selling the debugged stuff overseas. It was a favorite talking-point of bitter American CEOs and pundits, who were pissed at watching Japanese manufacturing eating our lunch.

[rfkrfk]

9. urban driving, is what hybrids are good-at

on a US highway,'hybridness' does not help much
because air drag and tire drag are not changed.

could you explainn...
tax base, hybrids, wouldn't change.

a gallon saved in Germany, five dollar less tax for Berlin

a gallon saved in the US, eighteen cents less for Washington,
twenty cents less for your state capital


are 'wrong side of the road'
versions of these things for sale in Japan and UK?

[phantom power]

10. Maybe I can explain.

My supposition is that hybrids don't save that gallon, if you're in Germany. Because if you are in Germany, you're already driving a smaller car with a smaller engine, that's probably diesel. And you're driving it less.

Here in America, we drive gas guzzlers, and we drive them a lot. So buying hybrids has a greater impact. It would also be the case that if we all bought small diesels, it would have a big impact. But we like big cars with lots of acceleration, so hybrids look more attractive, because they allow for bigger cars with more acceleration.

My theory might turn out to be bunk, if European cars (and driving habits) aren't as fuel-efficient as I think. If hybrids really would allow Europeans to save a significant amount of fuel, then your point about tax revenue must hold true.

Regarding highways, the highway mileage for hybrids is still in the 40s and 50s (I imagine the new larger models are 30s?). And "highways" are usually stop-and-go during rush-hour, at least in a city like Phoenix or LA. And rush-hour lasts about 3 hours each way, so that's about 6 hours a day. Every day I'm thankful that I work out of the house.

I don't know about whether hybrids are made with reversed chirality.

[rfkrfk]

11. suppose a German car gets three times the mileage of a US car...

but by going hybrid,

a German motorist saves one gallon, five dollars less for Berlin

a US motorist saves three gallons, $1.20 less to feds and state

with the same percentage improvement.

.............
I guess I disagree with you in my
opinion that, hybrids are best for urban driving.
40 MPG highway mileage cars, are not new