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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:31 PM
Original message
Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html

What are the real world numbers on improved mileage for hybrids?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Get real.
Edited on Sun Jan-29-06 04:58 PM by cornermouse
ALL mileage estimates on ALL makes and types of cars are wildly inflated. Everyone knows that.

As it happens I have a hybrid. It gets significantly better mileage than the same size non-hybrid and I am more than happy. Beyond that I will not go.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Still waiting for some numbers to compare real world to real world not EPA

or is that too much to ask for (from such obviously intelligent individuals)?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Depends on whether you hot rod or whether you drive
conservatively.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. While we're at it...
Are there any EPA figures for ethanol-fueled cars we can dissect? :evilgrin:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. ALL cars get only 2/3 of advertised mileage.
Edited on Sun Jan-29-06 04:45 PM by IanDB1
If a Toyota Prius advertised to get 55 MPG only gets 45 MPG, then a Ford Expedition advertised to get 19 MPG only gets 11 MPG and a typical non-hybrid advertised at 30 MPG only gets 20 MPG.

In any case, the emissions are much, MUCH less than any comparable vehicle.

My Toyota Prius gets about 50 MPG in real-world conditions unless I run the air conditioner. Then it gets about 45 MPG.

However, with the A/C off, tail-gaiting a Hummer, I once get 65 MPG!


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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. May 11, 2004.

...and the news is even older than the article. Anyone who even looks at the sticker mileage figures whether the car is hybrid or not is too dumb to have adequate grounds for complaint.

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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. my 2005 prius gets 54mpg summer and fall and 50 in winter
a friend said when his prius dropped down to 46mpg he was told to check his tire pressure - sure enough it was low. Pumped up the tires and the mileage at the same time!

When it is really cold and i have to have heat and defroster on for the whole ride i can get as low as 48.

i drive half highway and half city each day on the roundtrip to work. were i city only i understand the mileage would improve.

:hi:
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. This is what I was talking about - the only thing is we do not have
a regular prius with same engine size and similar weight to compare it too (I realize the prius comes only as a hybrid). But thanks for an intelligent and constructive answer.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. no worries - look forward to reading what you find in your search!
:toast:
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Might the Honda Civic help?
you could try looking around for figures on the Honda Civic, as it has hybrid and normal versions - but with differnt gas engines, of course. Might help a little.

I doubt you'd find a car of 3000lbs/1.5l for a direct comparison with a Prius since in a normal transmission it would be chronically underpowered, but there might be one lurking somewhere....
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. ABC news did an article on this.
They tested the Prius and the Malibu. The Pris got 46 if I recall, instead of its rated 60. The Malibu got 21 versus the rated 26.

Hybrid vehicle mileage is overrated by about 25 percent while regular mileage is overrated by about 15 percent.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. THANKS. It's not easy to find good info on this but I had the impression
that the hybrids mileage is more overstated than the regular gas cars are (they all have estimates that everyone realizes don't have that much to do with reality, but i did think the hybrid estimates were a bit worse.)

I'm just trying to find out some reliable real world data on this. You can't really evaluate the pay off for this technology without reliable, real-world data. ..thanks!
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I also should have mentioned the Malibu isn't hybrid. The prius is.
Oh well. Since I didn't mention it earlier, I'll mention it now.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Y'all could slow down
My car gets better mileage than the city estimates and the highway estimates. My radical technique is to accelerate gently and to follow the speed limits. Nowhere does it say that you have to drive at 70 or 75 miles per hour.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. We did something subversive this weekend. We...
walked to the store. We accomplished errands, spent family time, got exercise, and had fun. For two hours, we thumbed our noses at peak oil and climate change.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I didn't even start my car yesterday and it felt great
I didn't finish that essay for the newsletter, either...my bad. Public TV played four hours of this show. I was enthralled:

To commemorate the 250th anniversary of the French and Indian War, THE WAR THAT MADE AMERICA (Weds, 1/18 and 1/25 @ 9:00pm) combines powerful re-enactments, digital effects and profound historical accuracy to tell the story of the battle of the Ohio River Valley. Deemed as the gateway to the entire continent, French and British soldiers, along with Native Americans, fought desperately to seize the property.

The writers spent a lot of time on the war from the view of the people who already lived here: Iriquois, Seneca, Mohawks, etc. I think the prime writer was Graham Greene. Watch it if you get a chance or see the video in the library.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I watched with great interest as this is a period in history that get's
pretty short shrift in school.

It was good, but I thought, for me, it moved a little slow. I thought they could have put more information in there (for my taste) than they did (even Graham Greene, who also narrated, talked a little slow for me. HE could have doubled his speaking rate for me). I guess this is to make history more palatable for a larger audience.

Still, I learned details I didn't know. Thank god for PBS!!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm ready for a Prime Minister William Pitt avatar
He was "one slick Willie", too. He figured if Britain gave the colonists some autonomy and a bit of funding, they would comply and he was right. He was a masterful politician.

I thought the recaps at the beginning of each episode made it slow. I scooted down in the basement and scrubbed my hiking boots during one of the interludes and did not miss much.

I loved the part when the natives nailed dozens of British outposts all in a matter of days. There were two on Lake Erie according to the map. I am going to have to figure out where. Last observation was that George Washington had a bit of a lust for battle. We have been kicking ass ever since and crushing other nations and cultures.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-30-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. I one had 25 mpg in a 350 (5.5 liter) V-8 Pickup.
I also went 25 mph on an interstate at 2:00AM in Texas (Very flat). I was in no hurry to go anywhere but between fill ups I did 25 mpg. I could have done better but I did have a small load on the Pick-up (and the weight of the engine and truck worked against better fuel economy).

Since the 1960s the way American Cars improve fuel economy was through cutting back weight. Prior to the 1960s most cars were design to have air flow through the car even if the windows were up. Thus such cars had tunnels in them between the outer body and inner body where air flowed from the front grill to air inlets in the car. Once the car was stopped you had no air flow, but it was almost as comfortable as A/C if the car was moving. A/C started to be introduced in the 1960s, by the 1970s Cars were designed with A/C in mind (the old force air system was abandoned as cars lost the weight of having two sets of metal for the Air to flow through. While A/C consumed power (And thus require more power than a car without A/C) the use of A/C permitted the cars to be lighter for no need for a force air system of tunnels in the body. Remember when you looking at fuel economy, look at the WHOLE SYSTEM not jut one part of it. In the Case of A/C, A/C uses power (which requires a bigger engine) but once you design a car around A/C you no longer have to design tunnels for a force Air system and thus the car can be made much lighter which permits lighter cars and thus better fuel Economy.

The problem is since the 1970s most ways to trim weight off a car have been done. Thus the next step are more fundamental than taking off weight. The key is better running engines, more efficient engines, better engine-Transmissions- Drive Wheels systems etc. In many ways electronics introduced in the 1970s have made cars more efficient than they were in the 1970s but, like weight, most saving were done by the early 1980s.

Standard Transmissions

Once you have done all you can do as to weight of cars and electric controls, you have to look at the Engine-Transmission-Drive wheel system to improve economy. Except for Electric cars, the best way to increase miles per gallon in regards to the Engine-Transmission-Drive wheels system, is getting and keeping the Vehicle in the highest gear possible and at the lowest speed possible. This is easier on Standards than Automatics for with a standard transmission a driver can leave the transmission buckle every so often, while the automatic will automatically downshift when it starts to buckle. Standards are also lighter than Automatics and use less power to shift gears. A fourth factor Standards provide better fuel economy is that Standards are metal to metal connections so more efficient at transferring power from the engine to the wheels. This greater efficiency means you can often get the same performance out of a standard transmission with a smaller engine than an Automatic, thus the fifth reason an standard gets better mileage, the engine-transmissions set can be lighter (My father use to say if you wanted an Automatic Transmission in a pIck up of th 1950s and 1960s you had to go with a V-8, if you wanted a six cylinder engine you had to go with a Standard do to this difference in performance between automatics and Standard transmissions, starting in the late 1970s the same rule applied to Four Cylinders engines and V-6s, never buy an Automatic with a Four).

Hybrids

In Electric Cars (including Hybrids) the issue is different (Through the key is using the generator motor the least). In a hybrid, you have an electric Generator that provides power to the Electric Motors on a wheel (or Wheels). Notice no trans-axel, no transmission in the conventional sense of those terms. The Gasoline or Diesel engine is nothing but a generator that provides power to the wheels AND excess power to charge the batteries (When the Batteries are fully discharged). The batteries provide any extra power needed that the generator can NOT provide itself (once charged). For best fuel economy the Generator is run at peak level for greatest efficiency, and than cuts off when the batteries are fully charged. The Car then operates on the Batteries till extra power is needed OR the Batteries need to be charged.

Thus Hybrids improve fuel economies in several ways, first by lighter weight. The light weight comes in many forms as follows:
1. No transmission or trans-axles, through offset by the extra weight of the Electric Motor on a wheel.
2. Much Smaller engine which is lighter than a conventional engine.

Thus the whole Engine to Wheel system is lighter, through this is offset by the weight of the Batteries and the Electric Motor. You must understand in a Conventional Engine-Transmission combination the engine-Transmission-Drive Wheel system must be powerful enough to keep up with traffic at peak traffic situations (Such as entering a freeway at rapid acceleration). The problem with this is most cars only need this peak power less than 5% of the time, most times the car is just sitting in traffic, of going along at a steady pace both of which requires a lot less power than entering a freeway (and most of these times is just idling). This is complicated by the fact most engines are design to be most efficient at full Acceleration, but used predominately at much lower levels of Acceleration. Please note when I use the term "Most Efficient" I mean that point where the engine provides the most power for the fuel used NOT the best fuel economy. Fuel economy is more than an efficient engine, but that engine tied in with its drive train. Thus most efficient for fuel usage is when the engine is operating at its lowest fuel usage for the bare power needed (See the paragraph on Standard transmission for further information on this situation).

With a Hybrid the extra power needed in Freeway situations is provided by the Batteries and generator working together. The Engine can be made smaller for it can be set to run AT ITS MOST EFFICIENT SPEED, for its is NOT tied down with a Drive Train, but being used to provide electric power to the Electric Motor, and any extra power being produced being used to charge the batteries.

Thus a Hybrid save fuels in the following ways:
1. Less weight do to NO transmission and mechanical drive train (Through this is more than off-set by the weight of the Batteries).
2. The Smaller engine is lighter and save fuel economy (again off-set by the Batteries and the Electric Motor).
3. The Engine/Generator is running at its most efficient speed with 25-50% of its excess power being saved as energy in the Batteries.
4. The Engine cuts off when the batteries are fully charged and they is no need for more power than can be provided by the batteries (Such as cruising down the highway).

Other ways to improve fuel economy

Given the above what is the "best" way to improve fuel economy? If you want the speed and performance of todays large engine cars that is the Hybrid. But there is another way, that is REDUCING PERFORMANCE. If people will accept a lower level of performance, you can have a even larger increase in fuel economy than from Hybrids. For example if you were to use the Hybrid's gasoline engine tied in with a six speed manual transmission (and ditching all the Electric Batteries and motors) you will get even better fuel economy than the hybrid does today BUT THE ACCELERATION WILL TO 1/2 to 1/4 of today's cars (and top speed will be much smaller). Why would fuel economy be the same? For you will be using the same amount of fuel but hauling less weight (i.e. no batteries).

I am sorry I do NOT see Hybrids as the final say in the issue of improving fuel economy, for going to even smaller cars and engines will do the same or better . The chief reason for the problem is the in-efficiency of Batteries as an electric Storage device, Batteries are at best 25% efficient. i.e. for every 100 watt of power you put into the battery you get 25 out of it. Fuel Cells are better at 50% efficiency with fly-wheels getting almost 90% efficiency. The problem is Fuel Cells are just starting to be made let alone used while Fly-Wheels are even more expensive and if one should break in an accident just a Killing machine (Thus I foresee Fuel Cells being used But NOT Fly-Wheels). The ideal combination is a gas turbine generator combined with a Fuel Cell (Which I see being adopted in the Future but for high end users only, i.e. Military/Commercial use not commuting use).

Volkswagen instead of opting for a Hybrid has done its research in direction of smaller and lighter cars with much smaller engines for maximum fuel economy. VW thus has had a 235 mpg demo car and a 3 liter of Gasoline for a 100 in production (Through NOT sold in the US, this is the Lupo Diesel). These promise to provide much better fuel efficiency than Hybrids (even Gas-Turbine-fly Wheels Hybrids). You may be only going 25 mph, but at least you will get to work at a price per mile you can afford.

For more on the 235 mpg CONCEPT CAR (This was NEVER intended to be produced):
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=1316
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_1-litre_car
http://vw.co.uk/new_devs/one_litre

The VW Lupo is now out of production, replaced by the VW Fox in the super mini Car Market. Neither the Lupo nor the Fox (or the even slightly larger Polo) are imported into the US.









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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Yep, go 55 mph and you will get the EPA estimate on the sticker
I have a 2005 Scion xA with an EPA rated 31 city/38 highway fuel economy. When driving up to my mom's place this past weekend (100 miles, all highway) I did a little test. I filled up before I left and set the cruise control to 70 mph. When I left my mom's, I refilled and checked my mileage. 33 mpg, damn. So I go home, but this time it's later at night and I can set my cruise to ~57 mph without risk of getting run off the road by other drivers. I refilled when I got home and checked my mileage. Boom, 38 mpg, the exact fuel estimate the EPA gave it. Since my car's fuel efficiency drops a bit in winter, I should be getting 40 mpg in the summer.

I'd drive 55 mph every time I'm on the highway if it weren't for the fact I'll get run off the road by drivers who believe the posted speed limit is a good starting point.

Time to dust off and put back up all those 55 mph signs we took down in the 90's.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. why do some people think, that the US is the only country in the world
if you don't like the EPA estimates, use some other estimate.

I'm getting kinda tired of
.........................
the only place on Earth,
is the US,
and then, the only part of the US that exists,
is the District of Columbia
.........................
as a political stance
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. This article is almost 2 years old - wtf?
I get around 46 average MPG in my 2005 Prius...but I really need to check my tire pressure. I know I should be getting better milage than that.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. hybrids could do very much better as PHEV's
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 08:57 PM by IDemo
(Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles). Not every trip involves either great distance or freeway speeds. PHEV's make sense (but will moreso when battery technology improves) for shorter trips, but retain the liquid fuel power capabilities for longer trips as well. Prius's (Prii?) apparently have this built-in already for the Asian market, but not for the US. Some enterprising Americans have "re-engineered" their hybrid vehicles to make them PHEV's.

http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=449

V2G, or "Vehicle to Grid" technology, could further increase the value of battery-electric vehicles and PHEV's by providing power and monitoring/control services to the grid.
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