Cheney's hand puppet talks about cellulosic ethanol to be ready

[JohnWxy]

6 years in the future. WHILE CORN BASED ETHANOL IS PRACTICAL RIGHT NOW AND CAN BE SCALED UP MUCH QUICKER, FOR LESS MONEY, WITHOUT INVESTMENT IN R&D AND CAN PROVIDE SOME PROTECTION FROM A DISRUPTION IN OIL SUPPLY WITHIN A FEW YEARS.

We should have a program to aggressively promote production and AVAILABILITY of ethanol fuel that is being economically produced right now. Ethanol 85 sells for about $2.10 a gallon (vs $2.55 for premium gas) and can be used in over a million Flexible Fuel Vehicles on the road now. FFVs are sold by all major auto manufacturers AT NO ADDITIONAL COST TO THE BUYER.

Ethanol 15 (15% ethanol) can be used in ANY CAR THAT RUNS ON GASOLINE. Anybody using Ethanol15 in their car is immediatly reducing their gasoline consumption by 15%.

We should be working at doubling the production of ethanol (currently 2% of fuel supply) as quickly as possible (say 3-4 yrs) and then triple it. We need to get ethanol up to 5% and then 7-10% of the fuel supply AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO PROVIDE SOME INSURANCE AGAINST AN OIL SUPPLY DISRUPTION OF 5% or more. The odds of this happening in the next five years are subject to debate but I think the odds range from 50% to 100% that this will happen in the next five years.

Boosting availablility an production of corn baed ethanol (also sugar beets and sugar cane) is the cheapest and most viable (and quickest) way to provide this protection PLUS it will enable us to have the infrastructure in place to bring Cellulosic Ethanol to the market at a cheaper price sooner. Even when cellulosic ethanol is practical, we still will want to keep using corn based ethanol as it will be even more economical than gasoline in the future than it is now (as gasoline prices will continue to rise).

But all this would be too rational for a GOP administration to support.

Bush likes to bring things up (like LEave No Child Behind) and then not provide any funding for it. (actually, celluslosic ethanol will be commercially competitive in that time frame without any Government support.) I'll wait to see if the GOP really gets behind renewable fuels in a significant way. I'm sure EXXON-MMobil execs are talking to Cheney today: (e.g. "I thought you had that twerp under control Dick?!! Goddamn it, you better straighten that lil' shit out, right now!!")

[firefox]

1. I have a source in town for E85 and I use it.

I don't have an E85 car so I can buy only one or two dollars at a time, but I support the station with purchases and calls for other people to purchase. I plan on asking him to put in an E15 pump. The owner broke relations with Citco because they did not want him offering alcohol fuels.

[JohnWxy]

2. I think if it was available a lot of people would be using ethanol

15% or 85%. You can go to Congress.org and put in your zip code and it will pop up with your senators and congressman. You can type in a message or paste in one you previously composed. It makes it real easy to email your Senators and LEgislators.

Barak Obama has requested the GAO to look into Oil companies restricting the availability of ethanol. If it were more available I'm sure you would see growing demand for it. With growing demand you would see increased production.. This would have been happening already if ethanol didn't have well placed and wealthy opponents (Exxon-Mobil, et al).

That's why we should be emailing and pressuring people to promote an alternative fuel source that is renewable and cheaper than gasoline. THis fuel is practical and working right now. No additional investment of money and time in R&D! IT doesn't require more complex and more expensive cars either. What's not to like about this cleaner, cheaper, domestically sourced, renewabel fuel?. Every gallon of oil we do not have to import makes our economy stronger .. and safer.

[FloridaPat]

3. Biodiesel & ethanol are not solutions.

Second story down. We just cannot replace the rediculous amount of oil we use.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/121605_world_stories.shtml#7

We Americans are amazing. We plant corn to feed cows and cars. It takes 284 gallons of oil to feed a cow for their life-time - 14-16 months. Then there is the corn itself. 10 pounds of corn to make a pound of beef. How fast can you eat a pound of beef? 10 pounds of corn?



"Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study.
In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:

corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;

switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and

wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and

sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis. "

[JohnWxy]

4. Disinformation dies hard

HEre is a study you should read.

Argonne National Laboratory Study

David Pimentel and Patzek are paid by oil industry interests. Their 'studies' are widely known to be based on out of date (selected) data and offer falacious conclusions. No legitimate researchers takes them seriously, except as frauds. The conclusions you reproduced of Patzekand Pimentel to put it succinctly are total BULLSHIT (unfortunately not the kind suitable for Biodiesel).

Pimentel is an entomologist - this involves the study of insects.


Patzek and Shell Oil

Some insight into Patzek's bias against ethanol can be found on his own website: http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/index.htm . Patzek spent nearly a decade working for Shell Oil Company as a researcher, consultant, and expert witness. He is the founder and current director of the UC Oil Consortium, an organization funded mainly by the oil industry to the tune of $60,000-120,000 per year, per company.

“Tad Patzek is not a disinterested third party in this debate. It shouldn't be shocking that someone with such a background in the oil industry would come out opposed to ethanol, a viable alternative to oil,” Lamberty said.


Scientific studies have overwhelmingly found ethanol's energy balance to be positive, many of which can be viewed online at ethanol studies . The U.S. Department of Agriculture's most recent numbers indicate that the corn-to-ethanol process provides a net energy gain of at least 67 percent.



Ethanol Fast Facts:

Ethanol is a clean-burning, high-octane fuel produced from renewable resources like corn.

A blend of 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline (called E10) can be used in any make or model of vehicle.

The U.S. has 87 ethanol plants, about half of which are owned by farmers and local investors.

Ethanol offers superior vehicle performance – the Indy Racing League will begin using it next year.

[FloridaPat]

5. Yes it does. Thanks for the education. Looks like there is hope!

[Dead_Parrot]

6. May I ask you to address the discrepancies

in that report? Such as the lack of electricity required to transport ethanol vs the requirement to transport gasoline: You can have a list if you like.

To my eyes, that report is blatently biased and therefore totally worthless.

I remain convinced that ethanol will play a huge part in our future energy needs, but can we have it appraised in a sensible manner?

[Coastie for Truth]

7. I downloaded and read the Pimentel-Patzek Paper

plus some of Pimentel's papers. Pimentel is more of a Malthusian then Kunstler. And the process design, process economics, and thermodynamics assumptions are like nothing I have seen.

Coastie, PhD (ChemE)

[4dsc]

8. What BULL SHIT!!

Where are you going to get the CORN to double or even triple production of ethanol.. Why produce ethanol in the first place?? Americans are only wasting oil on a massive scale for their own selfish pleasures.

Corn based ethanol should not be taxpayer supported. Then the true cost would more than that of gaasoline..

[Oerdin]

9. We have plenty of corn.

Currently corn based ethanol production is exploding but the problem is that once you count fertilizer and transport costs along with the ethanol production costs we actually consume slightly more oil producing corn based ethanol then we save by replacing oil with ethanol. The reason cellulosic ethanol is such a good idea is that currently the spent stocks are just burned or left to rot in the field so creating ethanol out of this unused resource would totally change the math making ethanol produce more oil substitutes then it consumes. That's a good thing.

[Massacure]

10. But not enough corn to replace 20 million barrels per day.

Which is why I support Algae based biodiesel. It has the smallest environmental foot print because it is by far, the highest yielding crop per acre.

[poopfuel]

15. algae based ethanol is MUCh more productive n/t

[Massacure]

17. is it? Everything I read about algae seems to support biodiesel.

I didn't know it was possible to ferment an oil rather than a grain.

[poopfuel]

18. kelp farming, kelp is not an oil

kelp/algae grows inches per day, no fertilizer needed. Cultivate it next to outflowing sewage, it absorbs the stuff as nutrient. Several species have high concentrates of carbohydrates. Those grown for us to eat (seaweed) are excellent sources.
It has huge untapped potential. A lot of Chinese breeding programs are ongoing.
Capital and operating costs are much higher for biodiesel.

[rfkrfk]

11. ethanol yield is 2.6 gal per bushel, corn is USD 2.50 per bushel

do the math
the feedstock is the biggest cost.

only the starch is used, the portein returns as animal feed.

if wholesale gasoline is two bucks, ethanol is directly competitive
at 1.33, correcting for energy content by volume

higher corn demand will encourage more production

[NickB79]

12. Production where? The Plains are predicted to have a drought this summer

Kansas, Nebraska, northern Texas, Oklahoma, all are currently in a drought phase, and it is predicted to get worse. Where will increased corn production come from when the Breadbasket is too dry to grow crops?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x50722

"A dire weather forecast issued Monday calls for a hot, dry summer across the Plains reminiscent of the 1930s — the era of the devastating Dust Bowl drought."

[JohnWxy]

16. LOL. You can always be counted on for comic relief.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x50855


The International Center for Technology
Assessment (CTA) released a study in December
1998 quantifying the true costs of oil. The study
identified the following federal tax breaks as
directly benefiting the oil industry:

• Percentage Depletion Allowance:
$784 million - $1 billion per year

• Non-conventional Fuel Production Credit:
$769 million - $900 million

• Immediate expensing of exploration and
development costs: $200 million -
$255 million

• Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit: $26.3
million - $100 million

• Foreign tax credits: $1.11 billion -
$3.4 billion

• Foreign income deferrals: $183 million
- $318 million

• Accelerated depreciation allowances:
$1.0 billion - $4.5 billion

Also, the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 has
recently added new rules, thus increasing the
likelihood of supplying the petroleum industry
with an additional $2.07 billion per year in
tax subsidies.
~~
~~
In addition to federal subsidies, the oil
industry receives substantial subsidies on the
state level. Many state income taxes are rooted
in oil firms’ deflated federal tax bill resulting in
undertaxation of $125 million to $323 million per
year. Gasoline retailers and users benefit from
state-imposed fuel taxes which are lower than
regular sales tax, resulting in a $4.8 billion per
year subsidy.

According to
the National Defense Council Foundation, “Taken
together, the economic losses, the defense costs,
and oil supply disruption costs bring the total cost
of imported oil to approximately $250 billion per
year, or close to $4.00 per gallon over the current
purchase price of gasoline.”


This estimate doesn't take into account the full cost of the IRAQ war. Thje last I heard this was estimated at somewhere North of $300 Billion.

Oh, and then there are the 2,400 lives lost and thousands injured. But who's counting?

Here's some more reading on oil subsidies:

U.S. Has Royalty Plan to Give Windfall to Oil Companies $7 Bil over 5 yrs

In 2004 oil companies got a credit for the gasoline excise tax for every gallon of Ethanol blended
fuel they produced. That amounted to $1.7 Billion. Compare that to the $250 Billion for gasoline.


Subsidies for developing cleaner (remember Global Warming?), more efficient technologies makes perfect economic sense (can't believe I'm trying to communicate seriously with this idiot) but subsidies to a mature industry like oil does not make any economic sense. Let's get rid of subsidies that make no economic sense, then you'd be paying what oil really costs - something like $4.00 MORE per gallon than you currently pay.

[seasat]

13. Shrub Inc doesn't want to shift away from oil.

I agree with your point. My wife and I said the same thing while watching Meet The Press. Shrub Inc always focuses on a future technology while only providing token funding for it. If we used encouraged existing technology such as ethanol, hybrids, biodiesel, solar, wind, public transportation, and nuclear (New-Clee-Ur for lurking Repugs) when could substantially lower fossil fuel use.

One thing that is needed is lifting restrictions on personal stills for production of ethanol. If rural folks produced their own ethanol, it'd help kick start the business. I ran across a great site the other day with plans for building your own ethanol still. It is something that I could do myself. I may build one for my father-in-law (he has a small farm in MS). Heck, we can have our fuel and drink it too. ;)

[poopfuel]

14. that's the spirit, seasat!

permaculture.com