Ethanol vs. gasoline study.. ethanol looks pretty good..

[trekbiker]

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/01/26_ethanol.shtml

[benburch]

1. Pure ethanol in an Internal Combustion Engine is a problem.

At low temperatures (below about 40 F) the fuel does not properly combust. Not a problem once the engine is running, but a big problem when you are starting. Hence E85, which is 15% gasoline.

Now, an EXTERNAL combustion engine, such as a Sterling-Electric Hybrid or a Steam car could burn pure ETOH without any problems whatsoever.

Moreover either a Sterling-Electric or a Steam vehicle would produce no NOx pollutants, which any compression engine will make when the fuel explodes.

[phantom power]

3. heating plug?

[benburch]

6. A late friend of mine developed a car with a heater for the ETOH

This was complicated and presented a safety hazard in a crash. You see fuel burns. vapor explodes. Any large amount of fuel heated to its vapor point is a danger. Whereas injecting fuel into a hot engine only heats the fuel just about to be used, ditto for a carburetor to a lesser degree, though we all know about carburetor fires and explosions when things get out of order.

[phantom power]

12. Where does the ethanol need to be heated?

Is it in the tank? Or the fuel line? Or both? Could a thermostat be used? No need to heat it to boiling, I assume. Just heat it to 50F, or something.

[JohnWxy]

9. Nobody is selliing pure ethanol (except in Brazil) it's always blended in

varying proportions with gasoline.


Argonne National Laboratory Study

USDA study in 2004 condluded a 65% gain for ethanol production.

[hunter]

15. Rugged mass produced stirling engines would be a very fine thing.

They could be used in hybrid cars, cogeneration schemes, etc., and could be fueled by almost anything.

There are a few commercial products that are almost there.

It seems I really should be able to buy a home furnace powered by wood pellets, biofuels, DME, natural gas, whatever, that makes electricity.

[JohnWxy]

16. NO heating problems with 85% ethanol. THe only place I have heard where

have used 100% ethanol is Brazil. But I don't think they use it anymore. Just 85% ethanol.

[JohnWxy]

17. NObody is using 100% ethanol that I Know of. All is 10%, 15% or 85%

Ethanol - no heating problems. There are about 5 million FFVs on the road in US now that use 85% ethanol. (many in Minnesota, they have pretty cold winters up there) NO reported problems with startups in winter.

Ethanol in an ICE is much better than gasoline. NOt only does it burn cleaner (better, not only for environment but also for the engine). Ethanol has an octane rating of 105 gasaoine (high test about 92-93) this means you can operate at higher compression, yielding greater power output! IF you do this you get just as good as miles-per-gal with E85 as with gasoline. Saab 9-5 BioPower has computer controlled variable valve (and ignition ) timing with turbo-charging. IT gets MORE power with E85 (about 25% more) and gets just as good as mileage a with gas (the FFV vehicle is able to use both).

[mzteris]

2. there is one scientist

saying it takes MORE fossil fuel to MAKE ethanol than the fossil fuel ethanol replaces in the gas tank.

[Igel]

4. Hence the odd switchgrass reference

that NPR helpfully explained (having pointed it out, at least to me, since the SOTU address isn't something I've heard or read).

[Massacure]

10. And many more saying that it doesn't.

[JohnWxy]

13. Pimentel and Patzek's stuff has been exposed as fraudulent and

of no scientific merit. YOu get a net energy GAIN in producing ethanol.

Wang, Argonne National Laboratory - 38% gain (gasoline 19% LOSS)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=35670

Michigan State University study - 56% GAIN

USDA study (2004) - 67% gain

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=36988

The recent erroneous report prepared by Cornell University's David Pimentel and the University of California at Berkeley's Tad Patzek continue to perpetuate the myth that the production of biofuels such as ethanol and biodiesel has no energy benefit. Mr. Patzek is the director of UC's Oil Consortium, which receives funding from the oil industry including Chevron and Phillips Petroleum. Previous partners have included BP, Mobil USA, Statoil and Unocal.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. Or just silly.

It doesn't like the therm I studied in college or grad school.

Coastie, PhD (ChemE)

[msongs]

5. uh oh, bush's switchgrass! what about hemp as a source of biomass

you could strip the leaves and small side branches for ethanol and use the main trunk for fiber.

hemp is very hardy, weed and disease free more or less, and drought tolerant too.

The cotton lobby is willing to die to keep hemp from becoming a legal and common crop.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/liberaltshirts.htm

[benburch]

7. Hemp is the BEST source of fermentable biomass.

And the seed oil is useful as a fuel as well.

[Strelnikov_]

8. My Understanding Is That Switchgrass Is Preferred On The High Plains

Dakotas, Western KS, NE, OK, Eastern MT, WY.

Native, drought resistent and perennial.

The sane policy would be a mix of many plants, all selected for their adaptability to the local area.

I would not want to depend on a mono-culture for energy.

[Massacure]

11. Hemp is overrated as a fuel.

Sometimes I think pro-hemp people these days are just as bad as the anti-hemp people of the 1920s.

Hemp makes sense for to replace cotton for cloth and wood pulp for paper. It doesn't make much sense to grow it for fuel though, as there are better crops available. Algae used for biodiesel is at the top of the list.