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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:19 PM
Original message
NOw ABC News not to be scooped by NBC and CBS reports on Ethanol!
dateline America - Mainstream MEdia begin reporting some news!

From the ABC MOnday evening news, a report on ETHANOL!

Wow! NOw, all three networks have reported on the same item in TWO DAYS! What's happened? Maybe they realize this IS a story worth reporting! Ethanol is not only clean (reduces GHGs, but it's cheaper than gas, and available right NOW (though seriously under-developed) AND does NOT require billions of R&D expenditures to make it feasible - AND it comes from AMerican farmers and thus reduces imports of oil from mid-East countries - one of which supplied most of the 9-11 terrorists. SUCH a DEAL! (unless, of course, if your EXXON-MOBIL). And producing more corn ethanol (or sugar cane in Southern states) will help pave the way for cellulosic ehtanol. (well, they didn't get into all THAT, but let's be grateful for small favors, huh?)


http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1938027&page=1



~~
When Brazilians say fill it up, they're not getting the oily mix Americans see at the pump, which is 90 percent gasoline and 10 percent ethanol.

They get pure ethanol, as Brazil now produces 5 billion gallons of the sugar-cane distilled fuel annually. That's enough to power three-quarters of the nearly 2 million cars South America's largest country makes every year.

The production advantages are obvious — with sugar cane the energy source is above ground and can be produced for $30 dollars a barrel. Today a barrel of oil is priced at more than double that.

At the Brazilian pump, ethanol is nearly half the cost of gasoline. It also burns cleaner and is the leading reason this country is now entirely energy independent, no longer buying any oil on the foreign market.

"The empire of oil is coming to an end," said Roberto Rodriguez, Brazil's agricultural minister. "Wherever you go in the world, people are looking for replacing oil."
~~
~~


OF course, the inadequacy of the New Orleans levee system was reported on before 2005 too, and nothing was done about that.

Maybe you better start buying a few books of bus tickets right NOW.



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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. If only it could be for us as it is for the Brazilians.
Edited on Tue May-09-06 02:33 PM by sparosnare
As you've quoted above - Brazilians are making their ethanol from sugar cane, which seems to be the answer for them. This country however, has put its ethanol eggs in the corn basket, which won't be as good for us. The price won't differ much from a gallon of gas, and it will take more to go as far. Of course getting us away from fossil fuels is a good thing regardless - it'll be better for the environment but will it really be better for us economically? Ethanol will not be cheap.

We will use corn because it is our most plentiful crop and because agri-businesses (like Archer Daniels Midland) control it. It'll still be about corporations making tons of money and the people getting hosed. Don't think for a minute we'll go to ethanol for environmental reasons - all about money.

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Smooth Operator Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. can we
make ethanol from Kudzu? There's plenty of that around including here at DU. I thought they said it can be made from prairie grass too.
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adarling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. why would you do that Kudzu is so beautiful
hahahahah
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. ethanol can be made from a lot of things -
essentially anything that ferments although the method corps use is refinement with a catalyst like sulfuric acid. Fast growing hays like switchgrass is a good option, I don't know about kudzu.

There's kudzu here at DU??
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NoAmericanTaliban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Welcome to DU.
can't use kudzu since it wouldn't mean gov't subsidies for the agri-businesses, but I like the idea - there is plenty of it around.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Oddly enough
Kudzu's a useful treatment for people who've developed ethanol addiction....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4657026

Go figure.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Yes. Your talking about cellulosic ethanol. IT is about 5 yrs away from
being cost effective. Iogen, in Canada is one company leading the way in this. THey have a commercial scale demonstration plant in Canada. Until cellulosic ethanol is ready, rather than do nothing but keep sending all our money to mid-east countries (some of which act like terrorists - IRAN - if they don't fund terrorists directly.) we will be using more corn and sugar cane based ethanol as it is a better fuel source and cheaper than gasoline (not to mention a lot cleaner).

BTW, by expanding corn/sugar cane/soy/sugar beet (whatever is best) ethanol we will be facilitating the arrival of cellulosic ethanol because when that is ready we will have production infrastructure in place and this will enable us to bring cellulosic ethanol up to a commercial production volume much quicker than if we waited and then built up the capacity after cellulosic ethanol was cost effective.



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adarling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. but it would make it at least one dollar cheaper
its better than most alternative fuels which have been in the past far more expensive to make and to sell than fossil fuels
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. My concern -
ethanol can be made out of almost any kind of crop and even biowaste - but it will be regulated by the government and controlled by agri-businesses. What we end up buying and putting in our gas tank will come from corn. Ethanol is nothing but alcohol - we drink it all the time. There's no reason why enterprising folks can't make it from whatever they we wish - but I have a feeling they won't be allowed to do so.

They government and big business only think it's a good idea if they've found a way to make money from it and they'll make sure a cheap fuel alternative for the masses doesn't happen.
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adarling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. your right :)
totally agree with you on that/
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Want to cut out the middle man? check this out:
http://www.kfoxtv.com/automotive/9040469/detail.html


WASHINGTON -- Some people have become so desperate to find cheaper fuel for their cars they've begun making ethanol at home.

There are dozens of Web sites explaining how to make ethanol from homemade stills.

Bill Sasher, owner of a Tennessee company that sells ethanol stills and kits, said that once you're set up it costs about 75 cents a gallon to brew your own fuel.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. That's good stuff -
Edited on Tue May-09-06 04:25 PM by sparosnare
thank you. :hi:

And I don't want you to think I'm anti-ethanol; I just want it to be fairly produced by whatever and whomever; not regulated and controlled by the big guys. And personally - I am not a big fan of corn.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. corn is 2.40 a bushel, yield is 2.5 gallons,
ethanol has two-thirds the energy of gasoline,
do the math

I would think distilling would
take energy,
burning corn has 380,000 btu per bushel,
which is lots cheaper than fuel oil or propane,
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. like to know what oil really costs? here's a link--
Last time I heard, E85 was going at $2.19 a gallon, but that was when gas was at $2.65-ish. I think the difference is still about $.50 per gallon. To me that sounds uh,,,,cheaper? We now are paying about $3.00 a gallon for gas and that's before summer drive season and, dare I mention it?...the 2006 hurricane season.

But let's get to the REAL cost of oil:

http://www.ethanol.org/documents/Real_Cost_of_Oil_Aug_05_000.pdf


The International Center for Technology
Assessment (CTA) released a study in December
1998 quantifying the true costs of oil. The study
identified the following federal tax breaks as
directly benefiting the oil industry:

• Percentage Depletion Allowance:
$784 million - $1 billion per year

• Non-conventional Fuel Production Credit:
$769 million - $900 million

• Immediate expensing of exploration and
development costs: $200 million -
$255 million

• Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit: $26.3
million - $100 million

• Foreign tax credits: $1.11 billion -
$3.4 billion

• Foreign income deferrals: $183 million
- $318 million

• Accelerated depreciation allowances:
$1.0 billion - $4.5 billion

Also, the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 has
recently added new rules, thus increasing the
likelihood of supplying the petroleum industry
with an additional $2.07 billion per year in
tax subsidies.

In addition to federal subsidies, the oil
industry receives substantial subsidies on the
state level. Many state income taxes are rooted
in oil firms’ deflated federal tax bill resulting in
undertaxation of $125 million to $323 million per
year. Gasoline retailers and users benefit from
state-imposed fuel taxes which are lower than
regular sales tax, resulting in a $4.8 billion per
year subsidy.

“When faced with
spending $65 to $180
for a single fill-up, the
concept of researching
and developing
alternative fuels is
not just an interesting
thought, but a necessity.”
The Real Facts
Last year the ethanol blender’s
tax credit amounted to just
over $1.7 billion, the majority
of which was passed on to
consumers in the form of lower
pump prices.

Source: U.S. General Accounting Office
22 EthanolToday  August 2005
“U.S. dependency on oil
from countries that are
either politically unstable
or at odds with the U.S.
subjects the American
economy to occasional
supply disruptions, price
hikes, and loss of wealth,
which have cost us more
than $7 trillion present
value dollars over the last
30 years. That is more
than the cumulative cost
of all of the wars fought
by the U.S. since the
Revolutionary War.”

CTA’s research estimates that the American
taxpayers fund $9.1 billion to $17.8 billion
annually in tax breaks for gasoline production
and use.

In conjunction with tax subsidies, the U.S.
government provides the oil industry with program
subsidies. These subsidies support the extraction,
production, and use of petroleum and petroleum
fuel products. The CTA study cites totals
approximating upwards of $38 billion to $114.6
billion every year.

Some of these expenditures include:

• Research and development subsidies:

$200 million - $220 million

• Export financing: $308.5 million -
$311.9 million

• Support from the Army Corps of Engineers:
$253.2 million - $270 million

• Department of Interior’s Oil Resources
Management Programs: $97 million -
$227 million

• Government expenditures on regulatory
oversight, pollution cleanup, and liability
costs: $1.1 billion - $1.6 billion

A great downfall of these subsidies is that
oil exploration, production, and consumption
decisions become distorted, with the American
public virtually unaware of the true state of the
oil supply situation. This ignorance in leads to a
reduced sense of urgency in developing alternative
fuel sources, intensifies environmental degradation,
and leads to billions of dollars annually at
taxpayer expense.

Oil Defense

The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that
the U.S. will import as much as 68 percent of its oil
demand by the year 2010. This startling figure begs
the question: Are oil dependency, astronomical gas
prices, and war in the Middle East going to be the
norm over the next five years and beyond?
As past and current events have shown, it is
clear that securing and defending U.S. oil interests
have caused the American government to take
dramatic spending measures. Even in peacetime,
the U.S. Defense Department allots $55 billion to
$96.3 billion per year alone toward protecting the
world’s petroleum resources.


Holding approximately two-thirds of the
world’s known oil reserves, the Persian Gulf
region currently supplies the United States with
about 25 percent of its petroleum. According to
the National Defense Council Foundation, “Taken
together, the economic losses, the defense costs,
and oil supply disruption costs bring the total cost
of imported oil to approximately $250 billion per
year, or close to $4.00 per gallon over the current
purchase price of gasoline.”



Now these are real costs. REal costs covered by the Government (paid for by you and me through our taxes, rather than at the pump) which would have to be covered by the oil companies if not picked up by us. IF the oil companies had to cover these costs they would then be included in the price we pay for gas at the pump.

The latest estimates I've heard for the cost of the IRAQ war are on the order of $400 Billion.

OF course this doesn't even address the human cost of oil. So far over 2,400 soldiers have died in IRAQ. Thousands more have been injured. Think about that when you hear people plead the case for the status quo and how "cheap" oil is. Think about that when you are pumping gas into your tank.


Actually, corn ethanol is cheap by comparison - oh and yeah, there is the little problem of Global Warming. Ethanol reduces GHGs, something to think about.


Last time I heard, E85 was going at $2.19 a gallon, but that was when gas was at $2.65-ish. I think the difference is still about $.50 per gallon. To me that sounds uh,,,,cheaper? We now are paying abuot $3.00 a gallon for gas and that's before summer drive season and, dare I mention it?...the 2006 hurricane season. 50% of ethanol production is in the hands of cooperatives owned by farmers. The latest data on corn ethanol production is that it is returning over 90% gain on energy inputs (reported by MIchael Wang, The Argonne National Laboratory). This compares with the 65% gain recorded by the USDA study of 2004. Producing gasoline from petroleum is a 19% energy loser(Argonne National Laboratory study, M. Wang).


OF course, (I have to keep repeating this) corn is the source just until cellulosic ethanol enters the picture in about 5 years. (See why Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun microSystems, is excited about ethanol - he says "it's a No-brainer")

Quoting Khosla: "What could be better than a greener fuel that’s cheaper for consumers, that doesn’t feed Mideast terrorism, yet instead fuels rural America?"



BTW EXXON-Mobil just reported record profits last quarter, after a record profits for 2005. THey are not alone (re record profits) in the energy sector. Don't cha just love it??


P.S. here's a guy (Tennessee former moonshiner, probably) selling stills over the internet. He says you can make your OWN ethanol for $.75 a gallon!

http://www.kfoxtv.com/automotive/9040469/detail.html


People Brew Own Gas To Beat Pump Prices

POSTED: 8:05 am MDT April 27, 2006

WASHINGTON -- Some people have become so desperate to find cheaper fuel for their cars they've begun making ethanol at home.

There are dozens of Web sites explaining how to make ethanol from homemade stills.

Bill Sasher, owner of a Tennessee company that sells ethanol stills and kits, said that once you're set up it costs about 75 cents a gallon to brew your own fuel.


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Squeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Brazil
It's not just because of ethanol that Brazil is energy-independent. It happens that they also struck oil in the Atlantic several years back and have wells drilled off the coast of the states of Rio de Janeiro and Espiritu Santo.

But yeah, there are three pumps at every gas station in Brazil: gasoline, diesel, and ethanol. And there are enough ethanol-burning cars on the streets that downtowns tend to smell faintly of alcohol.

BTW, they only process the cane juice, they leave the rest of the plant (called bagasse) for mulch or compost. There's a new process being developed now that treats the bagasse with bacteria to break up the fibers, which are also polymers of simple sugars, so that stuff can be distilled too. This process will work with any leftover plant material-- lawn clippings, sawdust, old newspapers-- and it'll be way cheaper than ethanol from corn.
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NoAmericanTaliban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. 60 Minutes had a good segment on Ethanol last Sunday..
Brazil uses sugar cane as their source of Ethanol. Definitely something to look into, but should the gov't be subsidizing the corn agri-businesses?
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Subsidies to agribusinesses should go, just as subsidies to oil should go.
Petroleum is a mature industry. There is no valid economic rationale for over $250 Billion in subsidies to Oil.

Subsidies to new or underdeveloped, promising technologies are a part of smart economic policy. Market forces (big entrenched, powerful competitors) can keep new technologies from ever getting off the ground (they never reach large enough scale to become cost effective). IF the technology is deemed valuable (such as it can reduce GHGs or reduce our dangerous dependence on oil from mid-Eastern countries) it makes sense to support it to get it going.

NOw, subsidies to agribusinesses, in my opinion should not be continued. This is a huge byzantine program/subject but as I understand it, they mostly go to big corporations who do not need help in weathering price fluctuations of crops. These subsidies were originally meant to help out family farmers cope with market fluctuations so as to keep them from going out of business. Now, from what I understand they mostly go to big corporations. NO sense to it.

Estimates have put the total subsidies to oil at about $2.50 per gallon (actually they vary but that seems to be a figure most agree on, others put the figure higher). IF all the subsidies to corn disappeared ethanol's share of that subsidy (14% of the corn crop goes to ethanol) would work out to , as I figure it, about 8 cents per gallon of ethanol ($330 million / 4 billion gallons).

http://www.ksgrains.com/ethanol/useth.html

http://www.ewg.org/reports/bumpercrop/concentration.html


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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. what about the subsidy for biodiesel?
a buck a gallon for 'fresh' biodiesel,
for the bio portion of the blend,, B20 -->20 cents,

fifty cents for reclaimed.

get rid of it?
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-09-06 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. LEft out this quote from report re cost :

"It would cost $529 in gas to make a cross-country trip from California to New York in a Chevy pickup. To make the same trip in the same vehicle powered by ethanol would cost $218. "

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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. Ethanol is a waste of money
and should not be supported by taxpayers.

What's johnwyx agenda?? Does he work in the ethonol industry?? Is he a corporate hack here??
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Pierzin Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
21. Mother Jones reported on this months ago
I am sure you can find it if you look.

People are afraid of change, but we can do it.
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