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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:34 AM
Original message
I'm very resigned towards climate change
I went to the Natural History Museum this weekend, and they had some terrific exhibits on southern California prehistory, both human and non-human. Many of the fossils found around here came from a time when the climate was very different than it is now, both during the ice ages and during the age of the dinosaurs and before.

The seas have changed, the land has changed... seafloor sediments were deposited in even layers then thrust up to thousands of feet above sea level, there are Chumash and pre-Chumash villages at the bottom of the sea waiting to be discovered, and the local fossil record shows ancient camels, horses, mammoths, and other animals that are now extinct in North America.

The research indicates that the earth can shift between glacials and interglacials very rapidly, even as quickly as a decade, and all the creatures that are alive today had ancestors that made it through the change. Humans were on every continent at the end of the last ice age, and humans were not extirpated from any continent due to the changing climate.

Right now I see absolutely no indication that we will give up fossil fuels voluntarily. Fossil fuels are way too convenient to give up, and there's nothing else that can replace them for now. I really think it's already too late, and even if we made the huge sacrifice and gave up coal, oil, and natural gas the climate would continue to get warmer. Everything I've read on here indicates that feedback mechanisms such as the melting of the permafrost have already been set in motion, so why not enjoy ourselves while we can?
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do you have children?
Just wondering. "Just enjoy ourselves while we can" is not something a parent would likely say.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I don't have kids
But it seems like people who do have kids use more fossil fuels than people who don't, in general. :shrug:
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unschooler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. More people use more fuel, food, air, space.... What's your point?
:shrug:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. My point is that I'm being dismissed as selfish for not having kids
when having kids would, paradoxically, add to the problem of fossil fuel consumption.
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unschooler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think you were being accused of being unconcerned about the welfare
of future generations. And I agree it's unfair to assume that childless people feel that way.

Your OP kind of makes it seem that you are unconcerned about them, however.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I am in fact concerned about the welfare of future generations
I think there are things that we need to do to make sure that their quality of life is as high as we can make it. This includes not running up a huge national debt, not poisoning the environment with dangerous chemicals or radiation, trying to preserve wildernesses and oceans, conservation of species, protecting civil liberties, managing sustainable fisheries, not entering into wars that promise to be generations long, and trying to manage global trade in such a way that there are still good-paying American jobs for them.

I've compared this administration to a giant game of Whack-a-Mole, especially in the early years, where the outrages are so diverse yet so constant that liberals can never effectively mobilize to fight any one thing. One day it's abortion, the next day it's ANWR, and the day after that it's an un-winnable, illegal war.

The problem with global warming as a "cause" is that you're fighting everyone in industrialized society. Everyone is guilty here. Every country is guilty. I've seriously heard people argue for the immediate banning of fossil fuels, and the idea to me in laughable in its improbability. I think we'd have much greater success arguing for a sane energy policy from a conservation or national security standpoint than pointing fingers over any fossil fuel use.



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unschooler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. I know you are!
I agree there are almost too many problems to fight them effectively at once. I guess I would say that whether global warming is something to fight depends on the science, in my opinion, not the politics. If the consensus of the scientific community is that global warming means the end of civilization for most people, I'll fight it even if it seems unwinnable.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I have no idea how I personally would even begin to fight it
I already lead a fairly stripped-down lifestyle.

I'm vegetarian, I don't flush the john every time I pee, I'm not a big fan of air conditioning, and I ripped out half my mom's lawn to plant natives. This morning I went and did a bird survey on a creek restoration site. My Earth Day footprint is 9 acres.

I probably drive more than I should, but it seems so absolutely meaningless to try to save that 1/4 gallon of gas it takes for me to drive to work and back. Similarly, long distance public transportation such as Greyhound or Amtrak sucks so hard I can't believe it.

My fun time is spent birding, and I drive all over the place for that. :P

"Fighting" to me implies making real personal lifestyle change, and not just making a lot of noise and blaming Big Oil.

I really just can't see where the change would come without sacrificing a lot of the enjoyment in my life.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. No, but he may be right, which is the important thing to note
Edited on Tue May-30-06 12:50 AM by Selatius
The environment is like a train car. We've been pushing it towards warmer for a very long time, and it may move slowly at first, but indications show it's now most definitely moving towards warmer.

If all the pushing stopped instantly tomorrow, the fact is the train won't stop for a very long time due to inertia, and by the time it stops, there's a real possibility it passes the point of no return, where the damage inflicted on the environment becomes permanent, and that will be our legacy to future generations, a scarred planet.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think my point is that
climate change does not necessarily equal "damage" to the earth.

When the first photosynthetic plants evolved, they poisoned everything around them. Oxygen is incredibly poisonous to creatures that have not evolved to process it, and prior to the evolution of chlorophyll, there was almost no free oxygen in the atmosphere.

We wouldn't be alive today without that evolutionary step.

I think there are things we do to the earth that are damaging, like destroying habitats and poisoning the earth with toxic chemicals, but do you think the end of the last ice age "damaged" the earth? If so, how? If not, why not?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Damaging in that it will disrupt civilization
Mother nature can take the blows, but human civilization is rather frail. If farmlands turn to deserts, and deserts turn to farmland, there's going to be upheaval.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It's a fact that humans will be inconvenienced by the change
But we won't go extinct and civilization will not be destroyed. It'll be different, but it won't be dead.

It would be a neat trick if deserts turned to farmland though... ;-)
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. How are you certain that humans won't go extinct and civilization
Edited on Tue May-30-06 10:55 AM by NNadir
will not be destroyed?

On one hand, you argue that vast climatic changes have historically occurred, sometimes rapidly. No one, I think, denies this.

You point to the evolution of oxygen releasing photosynthetic creatures as an example of dramatic change, and again, no one denies this either.

But you take a leap of faith when you suggest that the survival of humanity and "civilization" will be included among the survivors. The increase in oxygen toxicity in the atmosphere resulted in the death of 90% of the species then living. At that time the species were unicellular of course, and clearly some life forms did survive, but if one were to pick a particular species one would have to say that the odds of the particular species surviving was low.

The adaptability of the human species is legendary in our own minds, but such survival of our species is no more assured than that of any particular anaerobic species was assured when oxygen first appeared in the atmosphere.

There is mitchondrial DNA, as well as evidence on the Y chromosome - that being the chromosome associated with foolishness - evidence that suggests that human extinction was at least, in one period, a near thing. In fact, sudden climatic change seems to have been involved in these events.

http://www.earth-pages.com/archive/Anthropology.asp

The broader question is philosophical, whether the cognizant being, the being who can comprehend the existence of galactic clusters and/or quarks and superstrings, has a special relationship with the universe, whether we should minimize the risk to such beings, who do in fact, hold the unique ability among species to plan and, now, apparently to control planetary environment on a planetary scale.

Of course, it is an element of some religions - most religions maybe - to extend special status to humanity, to regard it as being somehow more than just another species, indistinct from a paramecium in its overall worth.

I consider myself an atheist, but I am not so bereft of a spiritual sense to not be thrilled by our extension or our vision, and to hope that we will do all we can to continue such extension. I am prepared morally to accept that the idea that self awareness in and of itself is a special feature of the universe, and that the cells of such vision, of which the earth is the only known example, deserve protection. My atheism aside, I further buy into the Western notion, which has only become culturally broader, but is certainly not culturally universal, that individual human lives are important. It seems to me that the lives of individual Bengalis are as important as the lives of people who use a lot of fossil fuels, or moderate amounts of fossil fuels, or very little fossil fuels. I feel strongly that my life, even if I can afford to hole up in some survivalist stronghold fitted with a bunch of guns and solar cells, is intimately connected to the lives of the people on the streets of Decca who can afford no such survivalist luxury. In short, I don't believe that it's come down to every man and woman for himself or herself.

We who are breeders are not in any way superior to those of you who are not breeders. Arguably, people who do not breed are doing far more than their share to give humanity as a whole the best shot at survival. On the other hand, we breeders do have to face the implications of the future in a special way: We have to look directly in the eyes of those who will be stuck with cleaning up our mess. I have two children, and immediately on having the second (it was during the more optimistic Clinton era), had myself rendered sterile so that the possibility of exceeding the replacement rate was not a possibility for me. I could have forgone having children, of course, and maybe I should have done so but I didn't. My children are here, I love them enormously, and I must face them and do whatever I can to protect them. I am also preparing them. I am teaching them about energy, and responsibility, and obligation to their fellows. I insist that humanity as a whole has a responsibility to my children, just as I have a responsibility to the children of Mali, of Turkmenistan, of Japan, and of Finland. I also believe that we cannot breed ad infinitum, and I applaud those who do not have children; I celebrate them; I admire them. On some level they are doing far more for the future than I am.

But let's step back from children and talk about all humanity now living.

You say that it is laughable to speak of the banning of fossil fuels because people have no will toward doing so and because they use them now. But if we do as you do, and appeal to history, we have seen vast changes in human technological approaches to problems, some of which were, in fact, deliberate and planned and some of which did, raise the level of human experience to new heights. In fact the use of fossil fuels is a fairly recent development, and it allowed us to place ourselves in a Malthusian bind. Clearly this use was highly problematical, but it has also allowed us to understand how we must think in the future. We have scientific insight now that we have never had before. We know we can have a global effect, and we can realistically sketch out the procedures and implications of what we do.

Recently, for the first time in our history, some global environmental pacts have been put forth and acted upon. The Montreal protocol on CFC's was a success, flawed maybe, less than ideal, but it succeeded. This sort of thinking can be made to prevail and it can reduce the number of bullets in the probabilistic game of Russian Roulette we are playing as we "party hearty." The Montreal protocol demanded technological change that was essential toward stabilizing the planet. It should be the model for future approaches.

Kyoto failed, but if nothing else, it started the international conversation on the matter. It made it real. It made it a global issue.

I personally believe it is nonsensical to assume that we cannot technologically change our ways on a broader scale than the CFC issue, and deal with the matter of energy and its effect on the atmosphere. I am acquainted with technology, and I am convinced that many excellent solutions do in fact exist, if we have the courage to approach them. One hears all sorts of conservative thinking on the subject of course, that things cannot change, but I am not a conservative, I am a liberal. I believe in change, and I believe that change can be for good, that it can be molded so as to have a moral dimension. One change that will almost certainly happen is that the human population will be reduced, maybe to zero, maybe not. Many of those of us now living, I think, will see that happen. Do we want it to happen through catastrophe, as in Dafur, or do we want it to happen rationally, as it is happening in Finland? Which experience to we want for ourselves, as individuals? I think we all know.

I believe that humanity can, indeed survive, and it is important for it to survive, but I am not convinced in any way that it will or must survive. Whether it does survive, I believe, is at contingent on the choices we make. I recognize that the probability for the occurrence of global climate change is now 100%, as the event now occurring, but I do not believe that the probability is 100% that we accept the inevitability of the worst case or the worst implications. I believe it is the moral responsibility for human beings to make an effort to improve their environment, to use our special ability to manipulate things to offer maximal stability on which the current population depends. This is not the same as claiming that the effort must produce results, but that it is not the right thing to throw up one hands and say, without trial, that nothing is possible, so forget about trying.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. Thanks for the long and well-thought-out response
I'm only going to respond to a few points.

Industrial society is based on fossil fuels and always has been. You're right that humans are remarkably adaptable when it comes to technological innovation, but really only when pressed. Right now we're just not pressed. We're not even CLOSE to pressed, IMHO.

Like an above post of mine sort of said, having an "international conversation" on the matter is pretty useless. How many countries have made actual gains in reduction of CO2 emissions? What percent of people have made significant reductions in their own CO2 emissions?

The "international conversation" seems to consist of blaming "Big Oil, Americans, and the American government, which I think is a bunch of nonsense unless people's behaviors actually change. There are a huge number of countries that are complicit in this. All of civilized society is complicit, and every individual in the society can rationalize their own consumption, and I think most of the rationalizations are pretty blameless. We've all heard the stories about villages in Africa where women have to walk 3 miles to fetch water. What if those women could get in a car and drive? It's not an issue of survival, it's an issue of quality of life, and that's how it is for most people.

You're right that there are things that can be done to hopefully help the situation, like windmills, nuclear power, and ethanol ;-) , but the world economy has a lot of inertia, and I don't think we're likely to change en masse anytime soon. What's a realistic time frame for converting the US to, say, 25% renewables? From the current 6%? Of which almost half is hydropower? I think we'd be talking about decades. And I don't think we have decades.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Today I went out in the field with a guy who designs renewable energy
systems (an engineer) and I asked him what he thought about the possiblity of a large-scale conversion to renewable energy would be if we really devoted ourselves to it, and he said we're totally screwed. We couldn't even BEGIN to put a dent in US energy consumption with renewables even if we wanted to. He's pretty skeptical about wind, thinks that hydro is a nonstarter, thinks solar could do some very good things but would need to be supplemented with traditional power and thinks that nuclear is the way to go.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Of course I'm not a renewable energy engineer, but I do agree
with his comments on scale.

From what I hear, wind does a pretty good job when it's installed, but like most other forms of renewable energy, it needs back up.

I don't think hydro's a non-starter, but I think we have as much of it as we're likely to get.

Solar is good in some places for meeting peak demands for those who can afford it.

But I agree with him - we must have nuclear energy. It is the only thing that can provide for a decent standard of living. We will err badly though if we attempt to use it to provide an excessive standard of living.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Because there's always a chance...
...we can mitigate some of the damage. that the world might not be quite as bad in 200 years, if we can do something.

And because I want to sleep at night - and I can only do that if I at least try.

I know how you feel, and somedays I just want to throw the towel in and say, bugger it. And yet...

"I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
-John Cleese, Clockwise
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. The only 'constant' is 'change'.
We are watching it happen before our very eyes.

It is Hell.

But it is Real.

We can only slow it down. No way to reverse these changes even in our grandchildren's lives.

Unfortunately, nothing lasts forever.

Not even us.

They all watched it come over the Horizon, before we got here.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. wow
The shift between glacials and interglacials has NEVER happened in the span of a decade. Where do you get this information? From the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"? Climate change is occurring as I type this at a rate as yet undiscovered in the history of the planet.

What about pollution, the toxification of every ecosystem on earth? The drastic decline in numbers of fish of all species? There are so many related issues...are you willing to throw in the towel on those too?

"Enjoy ourselves while we can". Fucking great. Zero responsibility. Typical American attitude--enjoy myself, let future generations/other countries deal with it. I really find it disgusting.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I got the glacial/interglacial info both from
my geology teacher and my climatology teacher.

As I said in a prior post, I think there are things we do that are damging to the earth that we should stop doing, and I think it's a lot more worthwhile for activists to concentrate on things we CAN change.

As far as having a typical American attitude, what other countries have stopped their use of fossil fuels? Have you stopped YOUR use of fossil fuels? If not, why not? 'Cause those are probably the same reasons why I still use fossil fuels too, as well as probably everyone on DU and everyone in the industrialized world.

I drive a fuel-efficient car, and right now I'm staying in a hotel, but I'll probably wind up with a studio apartment. My use of fossil fuels is pretty modest, comparatively, but for example, later in the summer I would like to go on an ecotourism trip to Oaxaca. I could feel horribly guilty about the jet fuel to get there, but I could also choose not to. :shrug:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Both of your teachers need to go back to school
"'Tomorrow's' forecast: bad science on the big screen"

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0528/p01s04-sten.html?s=widep

Regarding other countries--160 countries have signed the Kyoto accord, which is a huge first step. These countries are NOT giving up. They are devoting time and energy to coming up with practical solutions, timelines, goals. The US hasn't signed it. That's something right at home that both of us can work to change.

Though I haven't stopped my use of fossil fuels, it's at a pretty bare minimum. Americans represent 10% of the world's population and we use 25% of its energy. As one of the most developed countries there is no excuse for it, and no reason why we can't improve it.

Maybe we're doomed. But if we don't accept the challenge, there will be no doubt about it.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I had an excellent education
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PublicWrath Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Interesting thread. The article mentions geological evidence for
climate changes in decades or less. Would that be something fairly subtle like the Little Ice Age that started in medieval times and ended in the 19th century? Or something much more dramatic?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Here's an article from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The article refers to temporary regional changes
Edited on Tue May-30-06 09:29 AM by wtmusic
so the comparison is apples/oranges:

"In addition, these climate shifts do not necessarily have universal, global effects."

"It is important to clarify that we are not contemplating a situation of either abrupt cooling or global warming. Rather, abrupt regional cooling and gradual global warming can unfold simultaneously."

"Global warming affects the hydrological cycle because a warmer atmosphere carries more water. This, in turn, has implications for greenhouse warming, since water vapor itself is the most abundant, and often overlooked, greenhouse gas."

"Among the suspects are melting glaciers or Arctic sea ice, or increased precipitation falling directly into the ocean or entering via the great rivers that discharge into the Arctic Ocean. Global warming may be an exacerbating factor."

Contrast to the global and irreversible changes related to human activity:

"According to the National Academy of Sciences, the Earth's surface temperature has risen by about 1 degree Fahrenheit in the past century, with accelerated warming during the past two decades. There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities. Human activities have altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere through the buildup of greenhouse gases – primarily carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide."

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/Climate.html
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Since you like the National Academy of Sciences:
http://dels.nas.edu/osb/summary/climate_change_summary.pdf

I'm not arguing about human caused climate change, I'm saying that abrupt climate changes have happened in the past and life forms alive today have ancestors that survived those changes.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. You claimed it was the time between glacials/interglacials
which is an entirely different order of magnitude. This article reinforces the idea that global climate change is making things worse.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here's what the article says:
"...Researchers have discovered repeated instances of large and abrupt climate changes during the last 100,000 years during the slide into and climb out of the most recent ice age--local warmings as great as 28 degrees occurred repeatedly, sometimes in the mere span of a decade."

Now if you're a tree and suddenly it gets 28 degrees warmer where you live, what's going to happen? If you're a bird and you arrive on your breeding grounds and it's 28 degrees warmer, how do you cope?

I don't have the answer to that, but all the birds and trees alive today had ancestors who figured it out.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm not sure why you're trying to rationalize this
Edited on Tue May-30-06 11:39 AM by wtmusic
except to accommodate your own conveniences. There are so many differences between natural- and human-induced warming as to really nullify any comparison. What about the byproducts of internal combustion? How many birds are killed not from the 28° temperature change but because their habitat has been poisoned by nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, lead, and mercury? Is there any reason why the warming caused by people would even stop at 28°, and not continue until the earth is uninhabitable (like Venus)?

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PublicWrath Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. I never said you were 'fulla shit'. I think you have me mixed up with
a different poster.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Oops.
Please accept my apologies. :)
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. Enjoy ourselves? Good luck with that...
Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:01 AM by skids
I don't think we'll be enjoying ourselves too much as large corporate conglomerates proceed to poison air, water, and food, and then turn around and monopolize the only clean supplies of air, food and water and demand slave labor from us in return for being allowed to live.

That is to say, maybe climate change is inevitable, but it's only one of many things that are threatening to go wrong. Instead of "enjoying yourself" for the few years you might still be able to pull it off, you might want to start thinking about how you can insulate yourself from the realities of post-crash life -- e.g. not be dependent on power supplied by a large corporation.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's time to adapt to inevitable changes.
sorry so many are pouncing on a single phrase of yours & missing the forest for the trees.
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. Coming to terms....
I define my attitude towards the situation as a coming to terms with the inevitable which is, I guess, not a whole lot different than resignation.

It has been difficult for me to accept the mess that we've made of things and, more so, our failure to have grasped and acted on the obvious before the tipping point had been reached. It is also difficult to accept that things will have to get a whole lot worse before there is a popular realization that something must be done to change how we live.

To know that there will be, well are, drastic changes taking place which will result in the extermination of vast numbers of species and a loss of ecosystems is deeply disturbing. Our children will experience a much different world, perhaps an unimaginable one, just as my experience is so much different from that of my parents when they were young.

Children are especially adaptable, as are humans in general. To many, the loss of the Artic may not mean much. They'll be use to hotter weather. There is also a chance that life may become more difficult, maybe much more so, in the coming decades.

We might yet harness our capabilities to lessen our impact on the planet, both in terms of resource consumption and pollution. Perhaps we'll make changes through foresight rather than being forced to by events yet to come.

Outright extinction is hard to imagine given the vast number of humans but Earth has gone through turbulent times and you never know what Mother Nature has in store.

One thing is for sure, life on Earth will continue. The question is if it will be life as we know it or rather replacements to be named later at Nature's discretion.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The problems we - or at least our children and grandchildren -
will have to face are greater than just adapating to warmer conditions, higher tides, etc.

Two important changes will be in the availability of food and water. There are already too many
people on earth for scarce food resources, and it's not going to improve. As more countries in
Europe and the Pacific dry out, it will become more difficult to grow food, and the scenario of
wars being fought for food and water isn't too far-fetched. As the sea rises there will be less
land available for cultivation, and what land there is will in many places become too dry to
support crops. Wildlife is already being affected, and as everything in nature both supports and
lives off other creatures, the loss of any one species can be deadly for another. As food becomes
less readily available, people will try to move to areas where they believe they will obtain it,
by force if necessary. And the invaded people will fight to defend their stocks.

Another danger is that of an increase in diseases. Two of the most obvious are diseases carried by
mosquitoes and ticks, both of which like warm conditions, and the WHO believes there will be an
increase in the numbers of these insects, and in the diseases they carry. Malaria making its
appearance in the northern hemisphere is believed to be a distinct possibility. Other diseases
that could spread from the tropics include Lyme disease, cholera, dengue fever and yellow fever,
because they would now be able to survive in previously inhospitable climates.

Increased incidences of flooding is also going to be very bad for the quality of the water that is
available, and also brings an increase in fungi and an improved habitat for rats and other rodents.

Not only will life change, it will become at least exceedingly difficult, and perhaps impossible,
to sustain.


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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Unfortunately you are likely correct
Your scenario, which might well be a natural outcome from climate change and past-peak oil, is really too disturbing to contemplate.

Our society has become so dependent on mass produced food transported thousands of miles, and a fairly benign climate, that we are ill prepared to deal with any significant disruption in either. We might well rue the day that McMansions replaced crops on thousands of small farms.

Few think about possible water shortages but aquifers are being drawn down at astounding rates while water is treated as just another resource without end.

Insects might prove to be the great equalizer.

We are a joyful bunch, aren't we?
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