U.S. automakers join better-battery project

[jpak]

http://www.sunjournal.com/biz/20060909008.php

DETROIT - Detroit's automakers are investing in Johnson Controls Inc. to develop a lighter and less expensive hybrid battery expected to be in vehicles by 2010 and able to compete with today's top-selling, Japanese-made hybrid batteries.

<snip>

Sales of hybrid vehicles, which increased from 84,000 in 2004 to 205,000 in 2005, show no signs of slowing down. But prices of nickel, the main element in nearly all hybrid batteries today, have increased from $7 a kilogram (2.2 pounds) in the mid-1990s to $25 a kilogram today, and automakers are considering alternatives.

<snip>

The automakers and the Department of Energy signed a $125 million agreement in July to split the cost of hybrid battery development projects. Johnson Controls also is fronting money and contributing equipment, expertise and employees to develop the batteries.

The goal is to make batteries for $500 each.

<snip>

[longship]

1. Meanwhile, no hybrids from Detroit?

Is there something wrong with existing technology that Detroit cannot manufacture a practical automotive hybrid in the meantime? The reason is that, just like in the 1970's, the Japanese have anticipated while Detroit merely reacts. That's why they are behind in nearly every major technical automotive advance.

That's also why I have never purchased Detroit iron in spite of the fact that I was born and raised *in* Detroit.

[DainBramaged]

2. An assumption without fact checking makes you look

________________ fill in the blank.

Ford makes the Escape hybrid.

The Saturn Vue Hybrid comes on line this Fall

The Hybrid Malibu comes on line this spring, along with the world's first Two-Mode hybrid in full-size SUVs (Tahoe and Yukon).

Hybrid Silverado and Sierra trucks are sold to Fleet customers and Public entities for develpoment now.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/hyb_timeline.html

[physioex]

3. Yes....

Those are perfect examples of too little too late. Look at the Japanese they have cornered the market with Prius, Civic, Accord, Camry, and now Lexus.

Don't forget they are wasting time on that "E85" to make up for the fact they lost on hybrids.....

[DainBramaged]

7. let's see. one percent of the American car market bought hybrids

last year, one percent. Don't bitch me out fool, bitch out America. And so fucking what Detroit doesn't meet your precious standards, at least the cars are union made.


Go drive your rice burner, contribute to the Asian economy and trade deficit, and put another Union worker out of a job. Bite me.

[Viking12]

14. You are aware that there areToyotas built by UAW workers, right?

[DainBramaged]

19. You make it sound like ALL Toyotas are built by the UAW

Only one Toyota plant is unionized, the one in Fremont CA which began as a joint venture with GM. That plant makes the Corolla, the Tacoma pick-up truck, and the Pontiac Vibe. All other Toyotas made in America are made non-union.

http://www.prospect.org/cgi-bin/mtype/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=5638

And Scion's are 100% Japanese Content. Got any more tasty bits without facts?

[physioex]

24. Hmmmm.....

I am not a "blame the union" person. On the contrary I am pro-union and I drive a beat up old Ford Taurus which is all I can afford now. I don't even blame the workers of the car companies. I blame the management of the big three for the mess they are in. Ford just hired Mullaly for something like 18 million when a bunch of workers got the axe, wtf?? It makes me feel sad because when I grew up I use to see Pontiac, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile cars on the road. Now all you have is SUVs from the big three and the sedans I see are all virtually Accords, and Camrys. Just like the 70's gas crunch when the big three were caught with their pants down we find ourselves in the same situation thirty years later and I find it pathetetic.....

[longship]

4. Pshaw!! Detroit responds to the Prius by making hybrid SUVs!!

Who in the Sam Hell wants an SUV? Not me. We can't afford to be driving these dinosaurs. Even a hybrid SUV gets horrible mileage, when compared to even the conventional automobiles which Japan and other oriental manufacturers are building. This is the extent of the complete and total disconnect of US auto manufacturers.

I want a small sedan that will get me from A-to-B with enough room for four people and maybe some luggage somewhat smaller than a steamer trunk. I want it to get 50 mpg or better.

Hell, about three decades ago my diesel Rabbit was getting 60 mpg on the road. What's wrong with Detroit that they don't see that they can't continue selling autos with the kind of mileage they are selling? Don't they see the market changing?

SUVs!!! BAH!!!! SUVs are a big part of the problem.

SUVs are all over the SoCal freeways, the vast majority with a driver and no passengers.

[DainBramaged]

6. Le's see, how many hybrids were sold last year and how many SUV's

When America as a WHOLE tells the manufacturers we want no more suv's, i'm sure ALL including the Asians will oblige them. Gee ask the Asian big 3 how many NON-HYBRID cars they sold too.

Go back too sleep, you live in dream world.

[longship]

10. They ought to pay gas guzzler tax

Then let's see how many people drive them.
Driving an SUV is Unamerican.

[DainBramaged]

11. You really are full of yourself aren't you?

Then Ask Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity to stop making them too. Even the small crossovers that they say are ecofriendly.

Oh, before I forget, do you drive?

Never mind. I realized I am talking to a bamboob wall. enjoy your rice.

[longship]

13. Yes, tax *all* the gas guzzlers.

No matter who manufactures them.

BTW, The ad hominems are totally unnecessary.

Just like they do Ferraris, etc.
Tie it to gas mileage.

[DainBramaged]

20. You skillfully (lol) avoided my question on driving too

[longship]

29. I drive as little as possible.

With gas over $3.00 a gallon, can't afford to drive much.

What I drive is an old Nissan clunker, but it gets over 35 mpg on the road.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

21. Driving imports is un-American

How about responding to the questions I pose instead of just throwing out comments without any content, Domestic or otherwise. You've attacked the US auto manufacturers without a single fact, just "ad hopping mad" attacks on them.

[Nihil]

28. Heavens above ... not *Un-American*? Oh the horror ...

"Driving imports is un-American"? WTF?

Maybe the public have a better grasp of reality than the
"America uber Alles" car manufacturers and their tame pets?

Jeez ...

[NickB79]

32. Burning imported oil is un-American as well

Driving a domestically produced vehicle that gets horrible gas mileage is just as un-American as buying an import, possibly more so. When you buy an imported car, you are supporting an Asian or European company. Buying imported oil puts money into the pockets of countries hostile to the US.

All gas-guzzling SUV's should be taxed, domestic and imports. Unfortunately, US manufacturers have put too many of their eggs in the SUV basket.

[DainBramaged]

35. (sigh) When the public stops buying them, they will change their product

[Nihil]

36. (sigh) I thought that was why Ford (et al) have got a problem ...

... namely, the public have stopped buying (so many of) them and
they *still* *haven't* changed their product ...

And no, increasing the marketing budget whilst reducing the workforce
(union or otherwise) does *not* count as "changing their product".

[Dead_Parrot]

37. Funny you should say that...

"In a first, Toyota outsells Ford"

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-08-01-sales_x.htm

Helped by soaring fuel prices, Toyota (TM) sold more cars in the USA than Ford Motor (F) for the first time in July, according to numbers reported Tuesday.

Toyota sold 241,826 vehicles, its most ever in a single month and an 11.7% gain over July 2005, Autodata said.

{snip}

Toyota spokesman Irv Miller says the company "doesn't pay a lot of attention" to such events, but believes fuel economy is the overriding reason for the gains. "When energy issues play on the front pages, we're the beneficiaries of that."

Curse those hundreds of thousands of unamerican Americans!

[DainBramaged]

39. yup, they can change the product line overnight

:spank: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dead_Parrot]

41. Like Toyota did for the Prius, you mean?

Hard workers, those Japanese. Set up the whole thing in 12 hours.
:hurts:

[Porcupine]

16. If checking out a Prius or Civic Hybrid gets a buyer on a lot

and then they buy a SUV Detroit still gets it's ass kicked. Quality control and left-behind technology has been endemic in big 3 automakers for 29 years. In all that time I doubt the UAW once threatened to go on strike for better quality controls.

Did the unions even once go up to the CEO's and ask why they were forced to make second-rate vehicles? I don't think so.

[DainBramaged]

17. Blame the union workers, of course. And you are a Democrat?

Did the Unions design them? Why do DU members constantly pick on Unions and their members? Are they really Dems behind the keaboard.

[muesa]

51. The Fear Has Been

The Hypothetical Unemployed Macomb County UAW Member - who moved from Detroit to Macomb County in the 1960's, is a "Reagan Democrat, and --- who has been brain washed to believe that if the Government mandates higher CAFE standards, Americans will buy Japanese Gas Guzzlers (????) and there will be even more unemploymed in Detroit.

The reasoning is that if the Big Three quit making Gas Guzzlers the US market would be taken over by imports. It is so convoluted that only Karl Rove could believe it - or market it. See my earlier append, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2511280&mesg_id=2511280|DU, Ford to extend buyout offers to all U.S. hourly workers>

[bhikkhu]

15. "Japan missed the boat on SUVs"

was the mantra of a few years ago. That is, detroit was selling them as fast as they could make them, while the Japanese manufacturers were engineering like mad to catch up.

I wouldn't drive an SUV, but I don't get too worked up over random market swings. They missed the last one, we missed this one. So we're even.

[skids]

5. Johnson Controls is a Republican money trough.

...and they are nowhere near the leading edge in battery development.

See here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/25/182047/704

[DainBramaged]

8. I fucking give up.

everyone go by imports. I don't give a shit.

[skids]

9. Ford has good hybrid tech...

...they just need to put it into a smaller vehicle than the Escape.

[DainBramaged]

18. The "blame Unions" crowd is here, don't waste your breath

[skids]

22. One post does not make a crowd...

...and I doubt most people here in E/E would lay the blame for the Big 3's corporate mismanagement at the feet of unions. In fact the response for American made products in this forum is usually overwhelmingly positive. The Escape even got a few good articles when it came out, despite being an SUV. The problem is, Detriot doesn't have much along the lines of eco-friendly products.

The last time I burned rice, by the way, was in my kitchen, well before I bought my Prius. Incidentally I own a 2002 and when looking for a new car tried very hard to find a U.S. car that had any advanced ecotech in it whatsoever, to no avail. I wanted to buy American, but moreso I wanted to buy pro-earth.

There are quite a few American businesses that we like here. As far as cars, not so many, though at least Tesla Motors is American owned and does employ some people here. The shame of the whole thing is that if you looked at all of the producers of cleantech, odds are foreign owned companies not only employ more people, they employ more Americans. Perhaps our biggest cleantech company is GE's wind power division. Guess where they make most of their units? It ain't here. Would not be surprised if Gamesa had more Americans employed building windmills than GE in a few years: American big-corporate leadership doesn't believe in the American worker, it seems, whereas foreign countries seem to like to employ us just fine. Go figure.

[DainBramaged]

23. ALL of you keep missing the point

Eco-friendly vehicles should be the norm. BUT WHEN THE PUBLIC BEGINS TO DEMAND THEM, THEY WILL BE BUILT IN GREATER NUMBERS. I ask again, how many non-eco-friendly cars did the big 3 Asian manufacturers make. And how many SUV's and trucks??

Keep blaming the Detroit manufacturers. The Asians are as much to blame for building BIG SUV's and trucks with shitty gas millage. The Nissan Titan, FX 35 and 45 comes to mind.

[physioex]

25. Ohhh...I agree....

The Japanese are to blame as well. But where the US manufactueres screwed up is by becoming crack whores on the SUV sales for profit and money losers on the sedans. This gave the Accord and Camry a share of the market that the big three can never reclaim. Not to mention the econo box cars....

[DainBramaged]

26. Here's a wake up call for everyone

MPG figutes

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

2007 model year

Toyota Camry Solara
6 cyl, 3.3 L, Auto(S5), Regular 21 29

Toyota Camry
6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(6), Regular 22 31

Honda Ridgeline
MPG (city) 16
MPG (highway) 21
MPG (combined) 18

Chevrolet Impala
8 cyl, 5.3 L, Auto(4), Premium 18 27
303 HP V-8

Chevrolet Impala
6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(4), Regular 21 31

Chevrolet Malibu
6 cyl, 3.5 L, Auto(4), Regular 22 32


Chevrolet Silverado Classic 1500 2WD
6 cyl, 4.3 L, Man(5), Regular 16 23

Chevrolet HHR FWD
4 cyl, 2.2 L, Auto(4), Regular 23 30

Nissan Versa
4 cyl, 1.8 L, Man(6), Regular 30 34

ohh, japasnese cars so eco-friendly, yesss, get big millage over US cars.




:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :popcorn:

[NickB79]

33. How many US-made cars get 35 mpg or better?

The Chevy Aveo gets 35 mpg highway, but it is made in Korea.

The Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry Hybrid, Honda Civic, and Scion xA all get 38-40 mpg.

The Honda Insight gets 60 mpg.

The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid get 50 mpg+.

The Hyundai Accent gets 37 mpg.

The Kia Rio gets 38 mpg.

The Nissan Versa with CVT gets 36 mpg.

The only US-made cars I could find that get 35 mpg or better are the Ford Focus, the Saturn Ion and the Pontiac Vibe. Until 2005 many Focus's were produced in Hermosillo, Mexico (imports, oh my God!), while the Vibe is a joint venture with Toyota (a Japanese company, run away, hide!).

With US workers earning less and gas prices going higher every summer, the economy car segment is exploding. Unfortunately, the US automakers have largely ignored this area and Asian companies have claimed it.

[DainBramaged]

34. (sigh) how many economy cars can carry 4 kids and the dog

comfortably? And by dog I don't mean Jack Russel Terrier.

For every wonderful Asian wonder you throw at me, I'll give you another reason to buy American. and buy Union. Go back to sleep. While you dream of little jellybeans squeezing out 60 mpg in the fast lane on Interstate 80 tens of thousands of Infinity and Nissan Armada and QX56 owners with their 13-18 mpg rating are screaming past you, digit extended out the window directed at you, shattering your dreams of Asian superiority.

Even they build what the majority of consumers want, not just what you do.

[NickB79]

38. How often do you carry 4 kids and a dog?

My Scion xA will carry myself and 3 adult passengers comfortably, and it is a subcompact. I haven't lacked for space with it yet.

How many people do you know who have 4 children these days? Of all my friends and family, only one of my uncles has more than 3 children. But, if you have that many children, by all means buy a vehicle that fits you. But very few people have the need to haul 4 children and a large dog on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis. Bashing those of us who recognize that we don't need drive a massive vehicle on a daily basis "just in case" we have an unlikely need to transport large amounts of goods or people is naive. You're arguing strawmen, finding an extreme-need position and trying to say everyone else has this same need when they don't.

My girlfriend had to move 80 miles to our new home last year. In the past 6 yrs I've lived in 5 apartments and houses (I was a college student). By your logic, should I own a mini-van or my own U-Haul truck since we had to move often? We simply rented a cargo van for the day at a cost of $75 instead.

If I ever need to do landscaping, I can rent a truck from Home Depot for less than $50/day to bring all my purchases home.

When we bought a new bed from Wickes Furniture, they delivered it and took away our old mattress for less than $50.

[DainBramaged]

40. hmmmm, girlfriend, no responsibilities

another car killer decides only his way is the best way.

I'll call UPS tomorrow and ask them to start delivering in Scions.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NickB79]

43. So, how often do you carry 4 kids and a large dog?

Laugh all you want, but as Dead Parrot pointed out, your example is a very small fraction of the US population.

"another car killer decides only his way is the best way."

Did you read my post at all? One of the things I stated was this:

"But, if you have that many children, by all means buy a vehicle that fits you."

Only my way is the best way? I think not. I'd like to think my way is the logical way, by only buying what I need. But if you feel you need to commute to work and back in a $30,000 SUV that gets 15 mpg when a compact would do the same thing, get twice the gas mileage and cost half the price, it's your money. Unfortunately, we will all share the climate change and oil depletion in the next decade or two.....

[DainBramaged]

44. Whatever, I noticed none of you believe in mass transit

How quaint. It's ok to drive your jellybean because YOU think you contribute, but damn the rest who can't afford one. And what about Police, fire and ambulance? Busses? Should we chain dozens of little batterybeans together?


You battery snobs didn't answer my UPS question either.

Wonder why?

Bye bye.

[Nihil]

45. No, you don't notice SFA because you don't LOOK!

If you are an example of US union leadership then no wonder you're screwed.

Let's try this one more time ...

NO ONE OTHER THAN YOU IS SUGGESTING THERE IS A ONE-SIZE FITS ALL SOLUTION.

Now quit the bullshit about "jellybeans" and UPS strawmen and start
to learn.

[NickB79]

46. Actually, my state is working on expanding bus and light rail lines

Minnesota is voting this fall on whether or not to build hundreds of miles of new light-rail commuter lines, and I am hopeful it will pass; I will be voting for it and will probably use it once it is finished. We also are replacing old buses with hybrids and FINALLY expanding bus service lines (long time coming). I don't ride the bus because I work south of the Twin Cities metro area, in a region that has no bus service, not because I have some kind of bias against mass transit. I rode the bus at least once a week while in college to get from campus to the mall, grocery store, movie theater, etc, since I didn't have a car the first three years of college.

Who here said they don't believe in mass transit? That subject never even came up since we were discussing car technology. Nice way to move the goalposts there.

"And what about Police, fire and ambulance? Busses? Should we chain dozens of little batterybeans together?"

Apparently the rather simple statement of "buy what fits your needs" is having trouble getting through here, so I will again say "BUY WHAT FITS YOUR NEEDS!!!!!"

Geez, when did I ever even imply that ambulances and firetrucks should be compact cars?

[Dead_Parrot]

48. Ummm... what?

So we've gone from "buying imports is un-american" to "imports cost too much"?

silverado hybrid 27k
escape hybrid 27k
saturn vue hybrid 23k
prius 22k
civic hybrid 22k

Um, yeah. I'm totally convinced. As it happens, I can't afford any sort of new car, so we have a 10-year old rust-bucket that gets 35mpg. Good enough for us... Although since we tend to use that public transport I don't believe in, I've not been to the gas station since June.

Fire, Police and Ambulance? Seriously, how many people commute to work in a fire truck or an ambulance? You're saying you won't give up your 16mpg Silverado until the fire-trucks run off batteries?

Police agencies around the United States are buying hybrid police cars to replace gas-guzzling counterparts and save taxpayers' money.... Not that I expect you to read it, since the tax-payers are probably all un-american.

Since the UPS issue is clearly critical to you, and since you seem to having problems using google, I can tell you UPS have a little under 7,000 low-emission vehicles in their fleet, including the UPS Low Emission Hydraulic Hybrids. So no, they are not using Scions. But they're not using Impalas either: They went off and developed their own rather than wait for Detroit to catch up.

[DainBramaged]

49. So, you not only do NOT even own a hybrid

you can't afford any new car. That is being honest and genuine in the discussion. :sarcasm:

PS, I haven't even mentioned if I own a car or not, yet you've assumed I own a Silverado.

Soooo sad, too bad.

See ya, ignore time.

[Dead_Parrot]

50. Ignored because I can't afford a new car?

I'm heartbroken. I knew DU was a big tent, but I didn't know it extended to completely ignoring people without 23k to spare. :D Still, it's easier than trying to come up with rational arguments, I guess...

[hunter]

52. I still drive the first vehicle I ever bought... in 1987.

A Japanese truck.

I'm the American Automobile industry's worst nightmare.

[Dead_Parrot]

53. What!?

You don't buy a new SUV every month and you have a Japanese make?

Dude, check just above your hairline for a "666" birthmark.

:evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

42. (sigh) how many people need it?

Only 3.5% of US households are that large: And over a third of those are below the poverty line, so won't be buying anything.

Pretty limited scope for churning out the hulks you seem to think are needed.

Even they build what the majority of consumers want, not just what you do.

Then why are the "big three" in the toilet, while the imports have a waiting list?

You obviously like waving your union flag, so here's what you do: Go ask some of those workers who have kids, if their pay-check is more valuable than their children. Because they are the ones who will have to live on a ruined planet after you've cruised all over it in your SUV with the "Made in the USA" bumper stickers.

Edit: for an encore, ask them if they are happy building cars that 97.7% of Americans either don't need or can't afford, and if they are happy about the lay-offs in the industry, and if they think there is any connection.

You could even ask them if they think the senior management is a bunch of retarded ass-clowns. They'll like that one.

[skids]

27. I think it is obvious just who is missing the point.

In the U.S. Toyota sold 144K passenger cars versus 96K light truck. 110K if you include Lexis. 67K of the passenger cars were assembled in the U.S., and 42K of the trucks.

"when the public begins"? -- "when" was three years ago. And they didn't take a clue from what happenned to their online "make your own advertisement" contest? Responsible businesses build contingency plans -- where was theirs? I'm sorry but I just don't envy you trying to defend these obvious boobs running our major corporations.

Honestly, what it all comes down to is whether an American company with American workers is going to offer me a PHEV that is at least market competitive when I am able to afford an upgrade. If they can, they will probably get my money, and if they cannot they won't. If I have to choose between one or the other, I'll choose the foreign company with American workers rather over the outsourced American company. If I cannot get either, I'll buy completely foreign. My wallet is not a charity operation for numbnuts. That's not an arguable point. That's just fact, as will be the case with the consumer at large.

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C9224/

[DainBramaged]

30. What ever, look at your own figures

Half were "assembled" here. The rest, pure imports.

Wonder how many American cars they allowed into their "open" society?

Hollow argument. when we build plants in japan, Japanese labor or robots, and they stop importing fully assembled cars, leveling the playing firld, I'll stop bitching about you Union haters.

You've been brain washed, just like Bush brain washed the Right into thinking he was a real pResident.

Argue with yourselves. I'm done. The fucking Asian Triangle and Chinese laughs at us, all because you sops hate America.

[skids]

31. You got one thing right.

I am sure the Eastern world laughs at us.

[hunter]

47. Another fantasy from Detroit. Don't hold your breath,

Meanwhile a government agency gives more money to friends of this Administration. What else is new?

As for the rest of this thread, I'd rather have a root canal than buy a car. Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to do it.