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Schwarzenegger Pushes Emission Markets (CO2 Cap & Trade)

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 02:39 AM
Original message
Schwarzenegger Pushes Emission Markets (CO2 Cap & Trade)
The governors of California and New York announced a partnership Monday to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by allowing power plants in their states and across the Northeast to trade emissions credits.

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said he would sign an executive order on Tuesday that calls for a program allowing his state to work with the Northeast's Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative.

The goal of the initiative is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions at power plants starting in 2009. Under the program, power plants in participating states will be granted a limited number carbon credits, equal to the amount of carbon dioxide they are allowed to emit. Those that exceed their limits must purchase credits to cover the difference, while those that produce less carbon dioxide can sell the surplus credits.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/10/16/national/a022617D65.DTL&hw=arnold&sn=003&sc=639
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Let me tell you about my new "behavior trading" credit program...
So you come home and find out that your ten year-old has trashed the house. There's food smeared on the walls, the TV has been smashed and the couch is on fire.

You're just about to explode when he says, "It's okay, I just traded my piggy bank to Janie. She sold me her good behavior credits. So, Mom, I actually haven't done anything!"

You immediately calm down, realizing that you can't punish a kid who's actually full of good behavior. Makes sense, doesn't it?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's not exactly how it works
Let's try to create an example.

Two families together use 20,000 cubic feet of natural gas in a month. Together they decide that 20,000 cubic feet per month is too much and they want to only use 16,000 cubic feet. They print up 16 little tickets, so each ticket is good for 1,000 square feet of natural gas consumption. The tickets are then divided equally among the two families.

Family A lives in a very poorly insulated house. They would like to have 10 tickets, but they only get allocated 8.

Family B has 8 daughters who use a lot of hot water. They also want 10 tickets, but they only get allocated 8.

It would cost Family A 20,000 dollars to re-insulate their house, which would reduce their consumption to 6 tickets worth of natural gas, and they could sell the remaining 2 tickets to Family B.

Alternately, it would cost Family B 5,000 dollars to install a rooftop solar water heater, which would reduce their consumption to 6 tickets worth of natural gas, and they could sell the remaining 2 tickets to Family A.

Family B can install the solar water heater and sell the two tickets to Family A for $2,500 each and come out even, while it would cost Family A WAY more in costs to save the same amount of gas by re-insulating their house.

Voila. The two families have worked together to bring their net consumption down to 16,000 cubic feet for the cheapest cost.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. I can't believe that Schwarzenegger is being promoted as environmentalist.
This guy's entire raison d'etre is about conspicuous consumption. He does know how to manipulate the media though and let's face it, our media is not known for its devotion to critical thinking.

This scheme will not work very well unless Arizona expands the Palo Verde nuclear plant or a concerted effort is made to tap the under exploited geothermal resources that California has.

The Carson, California "sequestration" plant is a kind of cruel joke, since it's real function is to recover stranded oil from the depleting fields there; other than that, California has done very little about carbon dioxide other than play a kind of shell game.

Carbon trading has done almost nothing to arrest global climate change, same as Arnold.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Southern California Edison
is beginning a HUGE push towards renewables: wind, solar, and geothermal.

Carbon trading hasn't done much because carbon is only traded in a small corner of the US, while the rest of the country is free to spew carbon at will. If we had a national or international carbon trading program, that might at the very least begin the process of reducing emissions at home.

I know Arnold's not a great environmentalist, but he at least admits there's a problem, which is more than most republicans are willing to do.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Carbon trading has failed internationally as well.
Edited on Tue Oct-17-06 11:21 AM by NNadir
My perception is that those countries that have met their Kyoto goals are the exception, not the rule. Many countries, it seems to me, simply announce that they aren't going to meet the goals and then go on to talking about North Korea, or Iraq, or Iran, or Brittany's baby.

I'm not really up on what Southern California Edison and what they're doing. I was a customer of their's a long time ago, twenty years or so ago. My recollection is that they were having a "huge push" toward renewables back then too.

There was a lot of talk for instance about the success of the Geysers project, which has been operating since 1960. There's still a lot of talk about the Geysers project, which is a shame, since one should be able to speak of many more such projects after 46 years.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/geothermal/overview.html

Frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. California does have huge Geothermal potential, but the fact is that Mexicali, Mexico is producing far more geothermal energy than the Salton Sea area, for instance. Something is rotten in Denmark.

I don't mean to be contrary - well, maybe I do - but I'll believe the renewables case when I see it. Almost all of California's new capacity for the last decades has been natural gas capacity. Natural gas is not greenhouse gas minimized energy. Renewables have grown in California, but not at the rate at which fossil fuel use has been growing.

Nationally - not specifically California - this trend is easy to see by looking at the new capacity announced for the US as a whole:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epaxlfile2_5.xls

It's mostly gas and coal, even though gas and coal are killing us. It would be even more stark if one were to recognize that the "name plate capacities" listed refer, in many cases to intermittent renewables.

It seems all of this talk from Arnold is strictly electioneering. As soon as the election is over, it's back to business as usual. My opinion is that the "renewables push" is what people want to hear. The election cycle is precisely the time that this sort of "want to hear" stuff goes on. What people are promised is seldom what they actually see.

With all due respect to the state of California, there have been a lot of unfulfilled promises in that state, going back decades. (Personally I cut my teeth on being cynical about the grand renewable future - in which I once believed - in California, starting back in the 1970's.) It seems to me that many of the solar thermal plants, wind plants, and other such systems are primarily designed to get people not to focus on the new gas capacity being built. It is true that California is doing better on the renewable score than most of the United States, but that isn't saying much.

The fact is that keeping Schwarzenegger where he is is a particularly bad idea. He's pandering and he is, like his entire party, a dishonest practitioner of the "bait and switch" philosophy.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I don't credit Arnold personally with doing much of anything
But I think good things are happening in this state.

We're working on some gas plants, yes, but we've also got some MONSTER solar and wind projects that will be keeping the team busy for the next year or so.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Schwarzenegger is the guy who made the Hummer fashionable.
Lipstick on a Republican PIG. A plate of steaming bullshit served with whipped cream on top, and they have the gall to call it dessert.

I don't buy into these last ditch attempts to make the neo-cons palatable to the U.S. public.
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Sven77 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-17-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Schwarzenegger
Edited on Tue Oct-17-06 05:14 PM by Sven77
"The Darkest of the Dark" Schwarzenegger wants to set up a commodities trading for pollution. Raising taxes does not stop pollution. Anything but renewable energy is smoke and mirrors. Ahnold did his photo-op with a hydrogen hummer, then got out and drove off in his gas powered hummer.
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