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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-20-06 07:43 PM Original message |
Water Scarcity And Biofuel |
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lumberjack_jeff (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-20-06 07:50 PM Response to Original message |
1. Ethanol has its place |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-20-06 07:52 PM Response to Reply #1 |
2. It only has its place |
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madrchsod (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-20-06 08:14 PM Response to Original message |
3. new process |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-20-06 08:44 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. And as this market grows... |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-23-06 02:47 PM Response to Original message |
5. To begin with... |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-23-06 03:03 PM Response to Original message |
6. YOU ARE HARDLY WORTH BOTHERING WITH. But for the record: |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-23-06 03:52 PM Response to Reply #6 |
7. Really? With your insight into what is and is not a scientific journal |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 12:09 PM Response to Reply #7 |
8. What is "fossil water"? |
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NickB79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 02:03 PM Response to Reply #8 |
11. Fossil water is aquifer water |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 02:49 PM Response to Reply #11 |
12. That's a facinating name for it. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 06:39 PM Response to Reply #8 |
13. I am agnostic in the sense that I do not offer an opinion on the methods. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 08:04 AM Response to Reply #13 |
14. Good to know where you've made up your mind. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 10:00 AM Response to Reply #14 |
15. Scientific inquiry is different than production capability. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:26 PM Response to Reply #15 |
18. I am using biodiesel today. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:00 PM Response to Reply #18 |
24. Good for you. |
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jpak (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 10:03 AM Response to Reply #18 |
100. Good for you! You are relevant... |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:32 PM Response to Reply #15 |
19. And another thing. |
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NickB79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:11 PM Response to Reply #19 |
26. How many millions of years will global warming be with us? |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:20 PM Response to Reply #26 |
28. So utilize plant based fuels... |
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jpak (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:51 PM Response to Reply #26 |
91. 100,000 years |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:11 PM Response to Reply #19 |
27. Your understanding of the nature of waste is apparently not clear. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:30 PM Response to Reply #27 |
29. A half life is defined as... |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:56 PM Response to Reply #29 |
34. In fact I read the primary scientific literature, which is extensive. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 07:49 AM Response to Reply #34 |
44. Hmmmm... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 08:25 AM Response to Reply #44 |
48. Deleted message |
Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 08:08 AM Response to Reply #34 |
46. >In fact I read the primary scientific literature, which is extensive. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:41 PM Response to Reply #15 |
21. BTW... |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:48 PM Response to Reply #15 |
22. >All over the country? On what scale? |
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NickB79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:09 PM Response to Reply #22 |
25. So how many millions of barrels of biodiesel is algae producing TODAY? |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:35 PM Response to Reply #25 |
31. You sound very certain of this: |
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NickB79 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 07:21 PM Response to Reply #31 |
39. Please list one algae-to-biodiesel plant that is currently running |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 08:02 AM Response to Reply #39 |
45. I didn't see how ... |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:34 PM Response to Reply #22 |
30. Oh, a bunch of "could" links. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:49 PM Response to Reply #30 |
32. OK, you win... |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 03:22 PM Response to Reply #32 |
36. Again, you have a very high opinion of your private contribution. |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 12:00 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. Coal is killing us but we worry to the point of helplessness about nuclear |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:26 PM Response to Reply #16 |
17. You'd need more than a couple of hundred years. n/t |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:40 PM Response to Reply #17 |
20. Oooooh. I'm scared. |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:54 PM Response to Reply #20 |
33. Please enjoy making fun of me.... |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 03:35 PM Response to Reply #33 |
37. I used to be a hard core anti-nuclear activist. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 02:17 PM Response to Reply #13 |
74. Pimentel is a retired professor of entomology. |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 07:39 PM Response to Reply #8 |
40. Firstly, I'm not a "he" |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 08:16 AM Response to Reply #40 |
47. I'm sorry if I offended you by calling you "he". |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 06:05 PM Response to Reply #40 |
64. "well respected regarding his work."?? LOL. What have you been reading? try the journal Science: |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 12:57 PM Response to Reply #7 |
10. I've had it. The ethanol lobby is as toxic as the coal lobby. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 04:57 PM Response to Reply #7 |
38. Pimentel is a retired entomologist. That's the srudy of bugs. He's not |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 11:17 AM Response to Reply #38 |
51. And JohnWxy is ??? |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 01:13 PM Response to Reply #51 |
53. "PRIVATE INDUSTRY WOULD JUST DO IT"?? LOL, ,, LOL |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 01:20 PM Response to Reply #53 |
54. I think we should get rid of the Air Force too. |
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Nihil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 05:50 PM Response to Reply #54 |
63. Ouch! |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 12:25 PM Response to Reply #63 |
67. It's more like a mere trifle. A remark is only taken as seriously as its source. |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 02:15 PM Response to Reply #67 |
73. DU is such a nasty wicked place. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 02:38 PM Response to Reply #73 |
87. you flatter yourself. Never said wicked - I said childish, trivial and a sentiment does not |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 04:23 PM Response to Reply #87 |
109. I said DU was wicked. |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-24-06 12:41 PM Response to Reply #6 |
9. My own bias is that I'm against industrialized agriculture. |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 01:56 PM Response to Reply #6 |
23. I hope those CAPS weren't meant for me |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 02:59 PM Response to Reply #23 |
35. Cellulosic ethanol vs. synthetic fuels such as DME. |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 07:46 PM Response to Reply #35 |
41. I'm still learning about all of this |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 08:31 AM Response to Reply #23 |
49. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 04:32 PM Response to Reply #23 |
61. Pimentel uses old data which is heavily weighted to Wet-mill process plants. |
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4dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 10:24 AM Response to Reply #6 |
66. More lies from JONNIE |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 01:08 PM Response to Reply #66 |
70. Net energy balance (USDA) of 1.67, (MSU) 1.56. Name a more cost effective |
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4dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 07:11 PM Response to Reply #70 |
82. 1.67 is not CORRECT!! |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:33 PM Response to Reply #82 |
89. Rapier didn't debunk anything. HOw's the "Big Lie" approach going. Having fun? |
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4dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 08:03 PM Response to Reply #89 |
94. Boy are you lost!! |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 04:05 PM Response to Reply #94 |
107. I really think you are sincere, I just think you aren't able to comprehend these concepts. |
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4dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Nov-03-06 08:11 AM Response to Reply #107 |
115. you're so confused it hurts.. |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Oct-25-06 07:51 PM Response to Original message |
42. Is Fred Pearce Wrong As Well? |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 02:53 AM Response to Reply #42 |
43. Yes he is wrong |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 11:15 AM Response to Reply #43 |
50. No, he is right |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 12:06 PM Response to Reply #50 |
52. bush lies about ethanol |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 02:43 PM Response to Reply #52 |
55. Now compare ethanol crops to oil crops... |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 03:35 PM Response to Reply #55 |
57. Waste stream will be used |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 03:42 PM Response to Reply #57 |
59. you're the man, Hank |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 03:40 PM Response to Reply #55 |
58. how valuable? |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 09:48 AM Response to Reply #58 |
99. oops |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 03:05 PM Response to Reply #50 |
56. Very Funny did you read any of what I wrote |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 03:52 PM Response to Reply #50 |
60. LOL. You've got the wrong industry. GOP is owned by OIL and GAS , along with |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Oct-26-06 05:02 PM Response to Reply #50 |
62. From Grist Magazine |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 10:12 AM Response to Reply #62 |
65. mr philpott needs to rechannel his energies |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 12:46 PM Response to Reply #62 |
68. This really is old news. But the article you linked to has a further link: |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 01:43 PM Response to Reply #68 |
71. A multiplier of 4 would be interesting. A multiplier of 1.67 is not. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:28 PM Response to Reply #71 |
88. LOL. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 01:48 PM Response to Reply #62 |
72. Export subsidies for Cotton: $4 billion per year. Brazil filed a complaint with |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 03:04 PM Response to Reply #72 |
76. As ethanol production increases, the value of the waste stream decreases. |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:53 PM Response to Reply #76 |
92. Dehydrate? waste stream? protein is hardly a waste biproduct . It's SOLD to |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 12:54 PM Response to Reply #92 |
101. At some point there is more than you can use as a "supplement." |
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poopfuel (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 01:31 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. "But maybe you can simply plough it back into the ground." |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 03:52 PM Response to Reply #101 |
105. even if the amount of Dried distillers Grain exceeded cattle producers demand |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 04:18 PM Response to Reply #105 |
108. Well, that and a gallon of ethanol to dehydrate it... |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 12:57 PM Response to Reply #50 |
69. Regarding your reading list. Have you read Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth"?. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 02:58 PM Response to Reply #69 |
75. Really? 590 scientific papers makes "intellectual light weight?" |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 03:30 PM Response to Reply #75 |
77. The study of bugs |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 04:19 PM Response to Reply #77 |
78. Don't mess with Entomologists |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 05:48 PM Response to Reply #77 |
80. Post #79 was intended as a response to this post. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 05:26 PM Response to Reply #75 |
79. He was studying gasohol in 1979, in the first Department of Energy. |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 06:45 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. I've read what other people in science have said about his work |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 08:34 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. If you could grow crops with biodiesel and ethanol, I submit... |
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hankthecrank (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Oct-27-06 08:53 PM Response to Reply #83 |
84. I speak because I want to how's that for you Okay |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 08:48 AM Response to Reply #84 |
85. You have a tractor and use biodiesel and ethanol. Why that's fabulous! |
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Chemical Bill (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 03:57 PM Response to Reply #83 |
103. . |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 04:51 PM Response to Reply #103 |
104. Deleted message |
JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 04:01 PM Response to Reply #83 |
106. Legitimate studies, actual studies have been done by people who |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 06:25 PM Response to Reply #106 |
110. Legitimate spell checkers, actual grammar checkers, have been used |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Nov-01-06 11:57 AM Response to Reply #106 |
113. Any comment on Dr. Wang's publication note about his errors? |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:45 PM Response to Reply #75 |
90. my "intellectual lightweights" comment was referring RestoreGore.'types'. |
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NNadir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 09:05 PM Response to Reply #90 |
95. My response is that you can read his resume. |
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RestoreGore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 09:54 AM Response to Reply #69 |
86. CELLULOSIC ethanol |
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JohnWxy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Oct-28-06 03:55 PM Response to Reply #86 |
93. I think Gore has thougth this through pretty thoroughly. That' why I mentioned him. |
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conning (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-29-06 11:10 AM Response to Original message |
96. There is another reason to be cautious about biofuels. |
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Dogmudgeon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 02:43 AM Response to Reply #96 |
97. And now, for a moment of rational, Peer-Reviewed™ discourse |
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conning (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Oct-30-06 06:05 AM Response to Reply #97 |
98. Laughter is |
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Dead_Parrot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-31-06 07:41 PM Response to Original message |
111. I've just solved the energy crises! |
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Nihil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Nov-01-06 04:39 AM Response to Reply #111 |
112. Nice one ... |
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hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Nov-01-06 12:54 PM Response to Reply #111 |
114. A mixture of cellulosic ethanol and deleted comments has a much higher EROEI. |
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