Monbiot Captures The Essential Idiocy Of The Denialists - Guardian

[hatrack]

EDIT

At my talk last night, a man in the audience informed me that a belief in climate change is a religion, and that I am its Billy Graham. He pointed out that temperatures on Mars have risen: could that be because of all the people driving their SUVs there? Well full marks for originality: I haven't heard that one more than 100 times since the Martian data was published. But instead of trying to argue with him, this time I asked a question: what would it take to convince you that manmade climate change is taking place?

"Nothing", he said. "The climate has always changed. This is just another natural cycle."

"So even if every scientist of every kind and every persuasion agreed that manmade climate change is happening, you would still place your own opinion above theirs?"

"Yes."

This, I suspect, must now be the position of most of those who still deny that man-made climate change is happening: that there is nothing - no evidence, however compelling, no scientific consensus, however robust - that could persuade them of the opposite case. Could there be a better definition of religion?

EDIT/END

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/george_monbiot/2007/05/a_few_hours_before_i.html

[Demeter]

1. One Could Argue For Less Pollution On Its Own Merits

without having to make the quantum leap to climate change. It worked for 40 years--Clean Air, Clean Water, etc.

It may very well be that cleaning up for health reasons is more motivating than trying to lay a big guilt trip on Joe Sixpack, who can't do a damn thing about it anyway, and doesn't want the guilt.

I think that the psychology aspect of public debate has been sadly neglected on our side. It's time to re-read Asimov's Foundation series and take notes.


Then there is the job-making, cost-saving aspects of changing how and why we do things: in these trying times, people will listen to simple, useful changes. Especially if there are immediate payoffs. A lot of the fruit off that tree is still easy to reach.

[Kolesar]

2. And if we keep the wealth in America instead of sending it abroad, it will create jobs

Because the money will be in the accounts of American consumers. The money will be spent here to stimulate *our* economy.

[Demeter]

3. Exactly! Enough Global Thinking, Time for Local Action

[Kolesar]

5. I'm working on my talking points

Got that gem from the Ohio Office of the Consumer's Counsel.

[phantom power]

4. I wouldn't count on it. For the 28%-ers, it has become about....

disagreeing with whatever "liberals" advocate. The Digby tribalism theory again. Attempting to discuss any of these issues, on any merits, is now beside the point.

[Demeter]

6. That IS a Real Problem, Phantom

That's where Reality gets involved. It CAN change minds, but it takes a lot of pressure. Or alternatively, a real good solution to a real problem, that sweetens up the stubbornly obtuse.

[phantom power]

7. Could be. Here's how I worry reality is going to involve itself:

it's going to make people desperate. And angry. It won't change minds, it will make people's minds open to whoever provides scapegoats and false promises of a solution. Think Hitler in Weimar Germany. Or, more recently, George Bush on September 12, 2001.

Of course, I ripped this off from Kunstler, but history is unfortunately full of evidence supporting the prediction.

In any case, I think it is still the right thing to do, to get the word out to whatever extent is possible. As a kind of innoculation against the madness. The more people who have at least been exposed to the concepts of climate change and peak fossil, the harder it will be for demagogues to prey on these people when things start to get desperate. Maybe not a lot harder, but it's worth a try.

I just think we should all go into the breach understanding that enlightenment is not the most likely outcome of this catastrophe. In bad times, it's the bad wolves who get fed the most, disheartening as that is.

[Demeter]

8. The Pessimist Creed Applies:

Plan for the worst, and you can only be pleasantly surprised.

[OKIsItJustMe]

10. It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World

The scene that has run through my head for months (or maybe years) now is near the end of the movie, when the firemen arrive to rescue the cast from their collapsing fire escape.

The poor fireman who appears to rescue them explains what they need to do, and cautions them not to all try to get on the ladder at once; but once they fully realize the danger they're in, everyone panics, and jumps for "safety" on the ladder.

The mechanism goes crazy under the load, throwing cast members every which way. (It's a comedy, so no one is killed...)

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Do you define carbon dioxide as 'pollution'? If you don't, then it's useless

Human health isn't significantly affected directly by the possible carbon dioxide levels. It's the indirect health effects - drought, famine, heatstroke, drowning, having your home washed or blown away - that are important.

'Clean coal' is only clean when the carbon dioxide is sequestered along with the sulphur and nitrogen compounds, mercury etc. If anyone comes up with a working method for that, it'll be interesting.

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. Oh... I don't know about that...

For example, zoning laws govern the wiring that can be used in buildings.

Shoddy wiring will not directly affect human health, but the indirect health effects (a fire for instance) are sufficient to inspire legislation.