So really, What's the United States' beef with Castro?

[Sandpiper]

After all the sophomoric taunting in the media following Fidel's recent spill, I had to ask myself:

Why all the knee jerk hatred for the guy?

I know he's no angel, but as far as I can tell, all of the sour grapes against him pretty much stem from two things:

1) His overthrow of a corrupt, pro-U.S. puppet government

2) His decision that Cuban wealth should belong to Cuba and not to U.S. corporations.

Am I missing anything?

[StClone]

1. He crushes his opponents

And allowing the nukes in for a time are two very dark marks on his Dictatorship. Actually as dictators go he is better than most.

[Sandpiper]

4. The U.S. has never been opposed to dictatorships

Only dictatorships whose economic interests don't flow outward toward the U.S.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. I think you nailed it. n/t

[wurzel]

2. He threw out the Mafia drug dealers.

Remember the film Key Largo? Cuba was where the American gangsters were coming from.

[kixot]

3. That's pretty much it.

He succeeded in doing what the Chilean government tried to do years ago, to nationalize domestic industries to benefit the home nation, not foreign investors. The communist movement succeeded in instilling pride in Cubans and taught them to despise foreign interests as leeching off of the native economy. When Castro threw out the foreign/american industrial interests he did not compensate the business owners for their loss, he pretty much just gave them the finger. These industries, mostly agricultural, incurred massive losses and had to set up shop in Honduras, Dominica, and other striving nations which had less fertile soil and fewer resources to tap into. Unfortunately, because of greed, Castro has unwisely stripped much of the soil's richness and so now every year's crops turn out more and more withered and unmarketable.

[Mika]

7. Not true. Cuba has settled with every corp and indiv except the USA

Its the US's Trading with the Enemy Act that makes it illegal for US companies and individuals to settle with the government of Cuba.

Cuba is not the entity resisting US national's and corp's expropriation claims, Cuba has settled with every other country and non US foreign corporation - that is why they all have pretty much normal trade and travel relations with Cuba (except for certain elements of trade that the US's Helm-Burton law prevents due to it's territorial nature).



As far as the depletion of soil is concerned, its just not true. Cuba has one of the most complete organic farming systems in the world (forced on them by the US's embargo and petro chemical economics). Cuba is a world leader and a global education resource on organic farming.

A couple of examples..

Alternative Nobel Prize Goes to Cuban Group Promoting the Organic Revolution
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/cuba/sustainable/rightLivelihood.html


Cuba offers the world lessons in organic food production.
http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment/cuba_verde.html




I know a fair amount about Cuba. I've been there many times.

Cuba is NOTHING like the picture US propaganda depicts.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Good post, Mika. Concerning compensation for nationalized property,

it has been offered repeatedly since the revolution, hasn't it? You're dead right in pointing out that only the former property holders connected to the United States have resisted making arrangements for compensation.

Everyone else did it long ago.

I wanted to add an interesting item which was only available in the last couple of years, as part of the official collection of documents from the Bay of Pigs collection made public formally during the U.S./Cuba exchange in Havana, which was attended by one of the John Kennedy cabinet members, can't remember which one right now. It was really interesting, as you know, and attended by some Cuban "exiles" who had been living in the U.S. after having been defeated in the Bay of Pigs invasion. They were able to meet first hand their former country men, and some of them met the very combatants they had been fighting during that abortive invasion.

This is a memorandum from Richard Goodwin, aide to John F. Kennedy, advising him of a meeting he had with Che Guevara, and it's damned interesting. They briefly touch on the subject of compensation, but the subject was much more illuminated in later actions. Once enough people have seen these papers they'll realize John F. Kennedy intended to restructure his relationship with Cuba COMPLETELY. Had that been carefully managed, our current relationship would never have fallen into these dire straights. Too damned bad Kennedy died just as he was entering negotiations, isn't it?

The article can be found here:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/19610822.pdf

The memorandum was taken from this group of documents:

IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 23, 2001, 5 p.m.

BAY OF PIGS CONFERENCE POINTS TO MISSED
OPPORTUNITIES FOR DIALOGUE AFTER INVASION FAILED

SECRET RAPPROACHMENT EFFORTS BEGAN IN
NEGOTIATIONS FOR PRISONER RELEASE;
ENDED WITH JFK'S ASSASSINATION

Havana, Cuba: Documents released this afternoon on the second day of an historic meeting of former adversaries in Havana highlight missed opportunities for U.S.-Cuban rapproachment following the failure of the U.S.-sponsored invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs.
Notes on an April 1963 visit to Cuba by attorney James B. Donovan and a memorandum of statements by Fidel Castro from the same trip, record a secret effort to negotiate the release of American prisoners that also helped to initiate a dialogue between bitter adversaries.

The memorandum also summarizes Castro's perceptions during the invasion, which he believed was intended to secure a beachhead from which to launch a provisional government. He was thus determined "to prevent the landing of the provisional government at all costs."

Also released today are documents relating to secret efforts by the Kennedy Administration to begin a dialogue with Castro in the days before his assassination in November 1963. In a February 1964 message to President Johnson, conveyed through ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard, Castro tells the new president "that there are no areas of contention between us that cannot be discussed and settled within a climate of mutual understanding," and expresses hope that Johnson will win the November presidential election and continue with the Kennedy Administration's rapproachment effort.

Another document, a March 1964 memorandum from CIA Director Richard Helms to President Johnson's national security adviser, reports on the alleged secret contacts between President Kennedy and the Castro government in 1963. The source believes that President Johnson was unaware of the secret dialogue "and for this reason is not continuing President Kennedy's policy."
(snip/...)

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/

[Mika]

10. Great links, JudiLyn. Here's another

Cuba Working Group
A Review of U.S. Policy Toward Cuba
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC
May 15, 2002
http://www.house.gov/flake/pressshop/cuba_policy_review.htm

America’s major allies and trading partners have reached property claims settlements with Cuba, just as America has done with China, Vietnam, and Eastern European countries.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Thanks for the link: it's a great article.....

Taken from the link, some points in favor of removing the complete travel ban on average Americans who would love to visit Cuba:

Repeal of the travel ban will:

• Remove penalties against American citizens for normal travel to Cuba;
  
  
• Increase the flow of ideas and American influence;
  
  
• Remove barriers to increased educational, professional, medical, and other contacts with Cubans;
  
  
• Generate revenues that will expand Cuba's small private sector (especially private restaurants, taxis, artisans, home rentals);
  
  
• Boost U.S. farm exports by creating an increased demand for U.S. produced goods;
  
  
• End the draconian restriction that limits Cuban-Americans to one family visit per year in cases of humanitarian need; and
  
  
• Free the full resources of the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control for its important mission of finding and disrupting the global terrorist financing network.
  
  
  
  
  

[movonne]

5. The Fl. cubans...votes..although this could backfire..just read

yesterday that the relatives in Cuba are writing and asking them to vote for President Kerry...

[Mika]

9. Maybe because of the sovereignty Cubans created for themselves?

A vast majority of Americans want good education to be available to all, and they want good health care to be available to all. So do the people of Cuba.

Let's face it.. Cubans have a more representative government than do Americans in that the people's will gets done, not just by their government action, but by the reduction of impediments that allow Cubans to act on their community needs and desires.
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html


ex:

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Bush_Begone]

12. Castro dares to defy the global capitalist system

therefore, he must be punished.

[Mika]

13. BUSH WINS LANDSLIDE IN MOCK ELECTION FOR 100 DISSIDENTS

CUBA

BUSH WINS LANDSLIDE IN MOCK ELECTION
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/10095599.htm

HAVANA -- About 100 Cuban dissidents invited to the home of the top U.S. diplomat in Havana voted in a symbolic ''U.S. election'' and picked President Bush by a broad margin. Bush got 83 percent of the vote, while Sen. John Kerry received 16 percent in a paper-ballot election held Tuesday night at the home of James Cason, head of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana.

Along with the choice of president, the ballot also asked what kind of political party they would favor in a post-Castro Cuba. Sixty-eight people favored a Christian Democratic Party, traditionally seen as center-right in Latin America. Eleven favored a Communist Party.

The announcement that 11 voters had chosen a Communist Party was greeted by booing.

Bush = Christian party.

[TheKingfish]

14. Missed one

Its embarrasing when a third world country has a better health care system then the worlds superpower.

[pantouflard]

15. Some more interesting facts about Cuba

Every school - even one-room rural schools with a few students - has a TV, VCR and computer.

Because Cuba's oil supply disappeared with the breakup of the USSR, they had to get creative. Now the entire country is mostly solar, and they make most of their own components for PV systems.

Cuba has "factories" where people sit at tables and roll cigars for export. While they work, someone sits at the front of the room and reads to them. Literature.

I'm not saying all is rosy in Cuba, but they do have alot to be proud of.

[gold_bug]

16. there was also a fear of a domino effect

When the Cubans gained a drastically higher standard of living by breaking out of the US system, it could encourage the rest of the people in Latin America to fight harder to wrest control of their economy from the US. In the context of the cold war this fear usually translated that the Latin American republics would tip over to communism. The domino thing probably isn't much of a concern any more, but I imagine it's still important to ensure that Cuban socialism fails (because everyone know socialism doesn't work) and can't become an example and that sovereignty will not succeed.

[htuttle]

17. He nationalized a bunch of Mafia property and money

All the rest of the 'complaints' the US has had about Cuba have been cover for this one.

[bemildred]

18. He is disobedient, and right next door.

How do you think that looks to our imperial masters?
It sets a horrible example for the other subject nations.
The other reasons given here matter too, but what I just
said is the core of it, and of why it has not been let
go of, and will not be.