On our Marine under fire in Fallujah:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

Am I the only one getting rather sick and tired of this Marine being crucified for essentially making a judgment call? In Fallujah, the insurgents have had a history of playing possum in mosques, and killing our soldiers. I think this Marine made a judgment call in shooting the unarmed insurgent, and I believe he was doing his job.

Keep in mind, that he was shot in the face just days earlier, and then sent back out into the field. I'm sure the soldier, if he had known that his target was not a threat, wouldn't have done what he did. He made a judgment call, much like John Kerry did in Vietnam, with the VC with the rocket launcher.

Anyway, I think this Marine should be returned to duty, with no reprimand, or at the very least, given an honorable discharge. REgardless of your thoughts on the war, I think our soldiers are only doing their duty. Agree or disagree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. So you essencitally agre wiht our future AG

the conventions of war are essentially quaint.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

13. No. I don't think war is quaint.

I think the Marine made a judgment call, based on the fact that there was a history of booby traps. I don't rejoice and overlook what he did, I just think he did what he thought was right in the heat of battle.

[MrModerate]

31. Not the heat of battle as I read it . . .

More like cold-blooded murder. "He's dead NOW?" C'mon.

And if he was rendered unfit for duty by his earlier wound, and sent in anyway, then prosecute his commanding officer too.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter that we've handed Al Jazeera one more example of vicious, overbearing, and downright stupid American behavior in Iraq. This is incident #34,560,411 and counting.

If this war was ever to be anything more than a neocon circle-jerk with windrows of corpses as stage dressing, then we had to leave the place better than we found it. So big deal -- Saddam's in jail, but the whole country's on fire. Iraqis continue to die by the tens and the hundreds, our soldiers die by twos and threes, civil war is just about inevitable (in Iraq if not the US), infrastructure reconstruction -- which I personally worked on -- is a cruel joke, well over half the would hates our fucking guts, we're spending enough money to build a platinum-plated bridge to Mars, and the REALLY dangerous creeps like Kim Jong Il, the heirs of Khomeini, and Vladimir Putin are doing little dances of joy that the one remaining superpower (the "hyperpower" as rightwing pundits like to call the US) is run by a gang of deranged and thick-headed zealots.

And the storm clouds of loathing gather and will rain down fire upon us.

[Lithos]

2. Situational

While the film is important, it's only a small window to what was going on at that time. Like a court case, everything depends on what other witnesses saw and the defendant's own accounting.

L-

[lcordero]

3. disagree

Every male in Fallujah in between the ages of 15 to 55 was blocked from leaving Fallujah.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. What history of "playing possum in mosques"?

Sorry, but I find his reaction offensive for three reasons:

1. He was shooting an unarmed person who was not an active combatant

2. The person he shot was obviously already wounded

3. He did this in a place of prayer.

The first two are violations of the Geneva Convention, I believe, and the third is a violation of a house of God.

Even if you think this person was justified for whatever reason, if he is not tried, how do you think the people of the world, especially Muslims, will react? Will not putting this man on trial give a signal that Iraqis or Muslims in general are fair game to Americans?

[rebelskypirate]

22. you are dead wrong

Gonna take you to task here, as someone who knows the rules quite well,

1): The Geneva Convention does not define active or inactive combatants....but rather there are lawful combatants, noncombatants, and unlawful combatants, will break it down for you
A) Lawful Combatants: Carry Arms openly, wear a uniform, have a commander who is responsible for them, and follow the laws of war, may be killed or taken as POW
B) Noncombatant: Civilians, medics, or religious personnel. Medics may carry defensive weapons, may be detained. POWs are also noncombatants, on either side
C) Unlawful Combatant: A noncombatant carrying a weapon or attacking other combatants. May not only be killed, but can be held as a war criminal

Even if the person was wounded, he was not surrendering, and must be assumed to be a combatant, and as such may be killed....period.

So you are wrong on Points 1/2

On Point 3, protected places such as mosques LOSE this status once they are used for military operations, and may be damaged or destroyed, and the people within who are combatants killed.

As to the Muslims view of all of this, I agree it will be used to incite further anger against us, but they will always have the option to report what they want, not necessarily the truth, no matter what we do.

[forgethell]

32. If he is put on trial,

but not convicted, how will Muslims react? How any body reacts is not a sufficient reason for prosecution. An investigation will determine if the Marine had reason to believe that he or his fellow troops were in danger. If he did, then what he did was justified under the laws of war. If he was just on a Muslim-hunting binge, then, yes, he should be prosecuted. But he was a Marine in combat, not a police officer going after some criminal. The standards are different.

[nine23]

5. So he made a "judgement call", and that just explains it away?

Ever heard of a "bad" judgement call?

[gottaB]

24. exactly

I haven't yet formed an opinion about this marine's guilt or innocence, but I have ample reason to question his judgement.

[forgethell]

33. Lots of bad

decisions are made in combat. Doesn't make them crimes. Naturally, he should make the decisions to protect himself, and his buddies, not the enemy, if a choice has to be made. On the other hand, if he was seeking revenge for his buddie's death the day before, or some other such motive, he should face trial.

[democracyindanger]

6. Have you read this?

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0447/wright.php

Another Marine in the unit I followed—a Democrat's dream, he returned home from fighting in Falluja in time to vote for Kerry—added, "Americans celebrate war in their movies. We like to see visions of evil being defeated by good. When the people at home glimpse the reality of war, that it's a bloodbath, they freak out. We are a subculture they created and programmed to fight their wars. You have to become a psycho to kill like we do. To most Marines that guy in the mosque was just someone who didn't get hit in the right place the first time we shot him. I probably would have put a bullet in his brain if I'd been there. If the American public doesn't like the violence of war, maybe before they start the next war they shouldn't rush so much."

A passage that everyone, I think, would do well to reflect on.

[lcordero]

10. there wasn't any consent for this war in the first place

the illusion of consent was created by the corporate media by using phony polls that had completely fraudulent questions.

[democracyindanger]

12. There was plenty of consent for it.

There was plenty of dissent, too.

[forgethell]

34. This is my opinion also.

War is a terrible thing, and innocent people get killed and maimed. But you can't have a war without killing people. That's what war is. So the justification for war is also the justification for these deaths, both of combatant and non-combatants. Therefore, it had best be a good one. That said, if I had been the Marine, I would be looking to survive.

[atreides1]

7. He Was Looking for Payback

"I think this Marine made a judgment call in shooting the unarmed insurgent, and I believe he was doing his job."

Well, keeping in mind the fact that he had been shot in the face, and that he had seen a friend killed by an insurgent that was booby trapped, I think he was out for some payback, and he found a way to get it.

By your reasoning, someone who kills another person because of the stress of a situation, should not be prosecuted for murder.

I could buy the judgment call, if he had said look he has a weapon, but all he said was that this #@$$!$ is playing dead, and then he shot him, and then said well he's dead now.

As I said this marine was looking for payback, the one thing he forgot about was the reporter that was with them at the time. At the worst he committed murder, at the least it was manslaughter, he should be tried. If he's found guilty then perhaps the trial will
consider mitigating circumstances, and he won't have to serve as much time

One last item, since when does the patrol allow civilians into a building that they think is still got activity.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

17. Have you seen the movie Rules of Engagement?

You realy ought to. I think it speaks to a situation exactly like this. Once again, we cannot accurate judge that he was getting payback, until we know all the facts. I'm not defending the act itself, I'm just saying it was a mistake, and that this soldier shouldn't be crucified as a war criminal.

[earthside]

8. 2000 Election-Judgment Call?

That's the reasoning ...

Hey, the US Supreme Court had to make a judgment call in the 2000 presidential election - they were just doing their job.

There is right and there is wrong; whatever bad happened to you yesterday is not an excuse for committing a wrong yourself today.

The war crimes for Iraq need to go from the top to the bottom - from the alleged 'commander-in-chief' all the way to the grunt who claims he was " just following orders" or making a 'judgement call'.

I would encourage the average Marine and other troops in Iraq to become passively resistant to this illegal and immoral war. How many troops refusing to obey orders to kill would it take before the Bush war machine came to a screeching halt? Now, that would take REAL courage - moral, intestinal courage ... Not the kind of so-called bravery that accompanies guns, armor, helmets, grenades, Bradleys, a kill ratio of one-to-one hundred ...

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

16. I hate to break this to you, but your argument is bunk.

The 2000 election and a heated military conflict are two different things. The SCOTUS made a deliberate ruling to overturn a recount, and thus decide an election. This Marine, it appears, may have been trying to defend himself. This isn't like Abu Ghraib, where the soldiers were smiling and appeared to be enjoying themselves.

[NCN007]

27. refusing to obey orders

in general gets people killed. A number of people on this forum are asking the Marines to stop the war by simply refusing to fight. Anyone in the military will tell you that refusing to obey orders that are legitamite (ie the president issued them) and are not completely immoral or stupid is something that the culture does not allow for. And being seen as a coward by your brothers in arms is a fate worse than death. You do not change the situation by asking the military to stop doing their job. Without adherance by the forces to the civilian leadership we have military coup, which i promise would be far worse than the current administration.

[RC]

9. Does your avatar explain your callous disregard for human life?

I am getting very tired of the religious types condoning the murder of Innocent people.

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

No crusades, No dark ages. People living in Peace and Harmony. Imagine that if you can.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

14. No, it doesn't. I explains my respect for all life.

Nice job, mocking my faith, and lumping me in with the extremists.

[RC]

21. Thank you

You were the one saying murder is ok. There were other military already in that room. The situation had already been controlled from the day before. That marine walked in and shot a wounded human being for breathing. I don't know about you, but I have a problem with that.

Bringing democracy and freedom to the people of Iraq? There must be a shortage of flowers by now.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

25. Never said murder was OK, When did I ever say that?

I only said that their might be mitigating circumstances, and it might not be a clear-cut case of murder. If it turns out that the Marine killed in cold blood, then he deserves what he gets. I'm just sayong that there are still questions of context here. Maybe I wasn't clear in earlier posts, but I'm not condoning the act itself, I'm just saying, considering the mitigating factors, it might not be a war crime.

[agarrett1]

26. Keep in mind

The greatest numbers of murders in the history of the world have been committed by regimes that were officially atheist.

[ornotna]

37. Which regimes would those be?

Examples please.

[lateo]

11. The marine did something wrong but...

there are mitigating circumstances that call it into question.

I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

15. Exactly.

Apparently, people Have gotten the idea that I'm defending what this Marine did. I'm just saying that he made a mistake in the heat of battle, and we shouldn't label him a war criminal, until we know all the facts.

On edit: I realize now that in my poll, I shouldn't have said that he did nothing wrong, rather it should say that he made a mistake, but there are extenuating circumstances involved.

[mark11727]

18. I'm voting for "other"...

...but I can't help but think that any investigation is going to end up with an Amadou-Diallo-style "we-did-everything-by-the-book" conclusion.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

19. I think this situation is different then the Diallo case.

The cops shot him 41 times, and they still can't explain why. I just think we should let all the facts come out before we judge the case. If it turns out the Marine killed the man in cold blood, then he deserves what he gets. I just don't think that it's clear that happened.

[Englander]

20. It's nothing like the Kerry medal incident.....

the fighters in the Mosque had already been injured and checked for weapons. The two fighters the camera first focuses on had just been shot- the guy with the beard has blood spurting out of his head- the fighter laying on the floor had also presumably been checked and was not deemed a threat.
What this marine did was to carry on what had happened a few minutes previously, i.e. shoot an injured unarmed fighter.His mistake was to do it in front of the cameraman.

[NCN007]

28. the mosque was secured the day before

that doesnt mean too much in urban warfare

[Englander]

29. How about five minutes before?

Why where some fighters killed by the marines that were already in the mosque and at least two unarmed,injured fighters not shot?

Maybe 'cos they had been checked and were not considered a threat;the others took a bullet to the head?

[jlee1933]

23. Come on now

Everybody here put yourself in his place,ure ordered to fight in a meaningless war from a moronic president and there are ppl all over the place trying to kill you. His friend died earlier that day from a booby trap from a wounded insurgent. It is a HOly Place? Do you know how many mosques have been blown up since March 2003?Alot!
We need to support our troops in watever they do, they did not choose this war,idiots did. And this happens alot im sure and i support it every time, this guy was just unlucky to get it taped.

[MidEastMan]

30. Sorry but all American Histroy is A War Crime

[UpsideDownFlag]

35. there have been a few notable exceptions.

[NCN007]

36. Ok...

the US has been involved in some horrible actions. Name a country that hasnt. The US has also done some pretty admirable things from time to time, even in war, like defeating slavery and facism. So please, explain what you mean by "all American History" Thanks

[IndianaGreen]

38. "our soldiers are only doing their duty." So were Hitler's armies!

Not a single soldier, sailor, or airman in Iraq is doing anything to defend our freedoms or our security back home in America. They are nothing but cogs in the imperial war machine. I would rather have my National Guard back here at home helping with flood and disaster relief, than over in Iraq, fighting and dying for the war profiteers.

If you really support the troops, you should demand their immediate withdrawal!