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SCOTUS recognizes RKBA is an element of "civil rights".

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 01:37 PM
Original message
SCOTUS recognizes RKBA is an element of "civil rights".
A convicted criminal under federal law has his/her Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) restored when his/her "civil rights have been restored under federal law, the law of the jurisdiction where the earlier proceedings were held." (see SCOTUS decision 511 U.S. 368 below)

When the ACLU and related organizations lobby congress or states for restoration of "civil rights" to convicted prisoners who have completed their sentence, they are implicitly lobbying for restoration of RKBA as one of the "civil rights". For example, ACLU, NAACP, et al have forced Florida to streamline its practices for restoring voting rights as one of our "civil rights". That action simultaneously restores an applicant's RKBA unless excepted out of the restoration. (e.g. see "Black State Lawmakers and FL ACLU Challenge State`s Failure to Help Ex-Felons Regain Voting Rights"

Although ACLU states it is neutral on gun control and in other statements sides with anti-RKBA activists, every time it lobbies for "civil rights" it is also lobbying for RKBA as an element of an individual's "civil rights".

BEECHAM v. UNITED STATES, 511 U.S. 368 (1994)
QUOTE
Petitioners can take advantage of 921(a)(20) only if their civil rights have been restored under federal law, the law of the jurisdiction where the earlier proceedings were held. The choice of law clause is logically read to apply to the exemption clause. The inquiry throughout the statutory scheme is whether the person has a qualifying conviction on his record. The choice of law clause defines the rule for determining what constitutes a conviction. Asking, under the exemption clause, whether a person's civil rights have been restored is just one step in determining whether Page II something should "be considered a conviction," a determination that, by the terms of the choice of law clause, is governed by the law of the convicting jurisdiction. That the other three items listed in the exemption clause are either always or almost always done by the jurisdiction of conviction also counsels in favor of interpreting civil rights restoration as possessing the same attribute. This statutory structure rebuts the arguments used by other Circuits to support their conclusion that the two clauses should be read separately. Moreover, even if there is no federal law procedure for restoring civil rights to federal felons, nothing in 921(a)(20) supports the assumption that Congress intended all felons to have access to all the procedures specified in the exemption clause, especially because there are many States that do not restore civil rights, either. {emphasis added}
UNQUOTE
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. I guess this invalidates "Megan's Law", too
--bkl
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ummmm.....how often do chilc molesters have their rights restored?
I've never heard of such a case.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It is possible to have a partial restoration of
an individual's "civil rights". Would that retain "Megan's Law"?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ah the gallant fight to arm convicted felons...
There's no end to the disgracefulness of the RKBA crowd.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Who are you trying to kid?
Read the case being cited.
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Voting franchise?
There are many people on the left side of the spectrum who believe in the restoration of voting rights after time has been served. I don't believe that this is any different. After someone has served their time I consider their debt to society paid, and rights should be restored. On the other hand, if there is a concern about recidivism such a convict should not be released.

This example is particularly notable when it comes to convicted child molesters. There is pressure to relieve over-crowded prisons and so often times these types are paroled. On the other hand, people are right to be worried about recidivism among child rapists, which is higher than after crimes such as larceny and even murder. Examples are such things as radio collars, neighbor notifications, all sorts of scarlet letters have been tried.

The simple answer is if a person is still dangerous, what ever his crime, this person should not be released from incarceration. If this means that child rapists get life senteces then so be it. The same thing goes with murderers. If someone has taken the life of another, I do not believe they should be allowed free. This is superior than revoking the right to bear arms from the general populace.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. But.....
Moreover, even if there is no federal law procedure for restoring civil rights to federal felons, nothing in 921(a)(20) supports the assumption that Congress intended all felons to have access to all the procedures specified in the exemption clause, especially because there are many States that do not restore civil rights, either.

Since there are so many states that do no restore civil rights, perhaps the RKBA is not as inalienable as some people think it is......
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. CO, I believe you question whether "civil rights" should be restored
Edited on Mon Sep-29-03 01:48 PM by jody
to a person after they have paid their debt to society.

I know several states make it difficult for a person to have their voting rights restored after serving a sentence.

Do you or someone else know what states never restore a person's "civil rights" after they have paid their debt to society?
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I Have No Problem With Restoring Voting Rights
But I believe that anyone convicted of a violent felony (such as armed robbery) should be permanently banned from access to firearms.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. What other "civil rights" do you want to keep from people who have
paid their debt to society?
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Just Gun Ownership
Nothing else is a threat to society.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Then you are against tracking "child molestors" after they have
served their sentence. One of our "civil rights" is freedom to move freely without interference of the government.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's Another Threat to The General Welfare I Hadn't Thought Of
A child molester forfeits the freedom to move freely through his or her own actions.

And a violent felon forfeits his or her right to carry a gun.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Perhaps there are others that we haven't considered. Is it time for
ACLU, NAACP, and others concerned about "restoration of civil rights" to qualify their position by specifically excepting out some things, e.g. some categories of violent crime, rapists, and child molestors? Those people would qualify only for a partial restoration of "civil rights".

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MIddle Man Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Not a gun issue
Black Florida lawmakers want more democrat voters in 2004. There are plenty of convicted felons in Florida. An untapped voters pool. Pretty simple, we hate Bush so much, we will let these defects have their rights back.

Restoring a Felons right to vote will also have a huge impact on which judges are elected to office. A convicted felon is motivated to get even with his judge. Their families often do vote for that reason. I do not think this issue should be conneted to child molesters, because they should never be set free. Some debts to society can never be repaid, and that is one of them.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I understand but if Florida resores a persons "civil rights" without
exceptions, then under federal law, that person can possess a firearm. What started out as a move to restore a persons right to vote becomes a RKBA issue when one argues for complete restoration of "civil rights".

RESTORATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS APPLICATION
QUOTE
Restoration of Civil Rights restores the right to vote, serve on a jury, hold public office.
UNQUOTE

Florida defines "RESTORATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS INVESTIGATION: A review to determine the qualifications of a former inmate/releasee of Florida to apply for full restoration of all rights of citizenship in the State of Florida enjoyed before the felony conviction." {emphasis added}

Federal law says TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > Sec. 921. --Definitions
QUOTE
Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.
UNQUOTE

The Florida application does not "expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms", therefore it appears that an approved application includes RKBA.

Does anyone have more information on this issue?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The answer to my question for Florida is in
The 2003 Florida Statutes, CHAPTER 940, EXECUTIVE CLEMENCY
QUOTE
940.05 Restoration of civil rights.--Any person who has been convicted of a felony may be entitled to the restoration of all the rights of citizenship enjoyed by him or her prior to conviction if the person has:

(1) Received a full pardon from the board of pardons;

(2) Served the maximum term of the sentence imposed upon him or her; or

(3) Been granted his or her final release by the Parole Commission.
UNQUOTE

It seems clear that an approved application to restore "civil rights" includes RKBA.
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MIddle Man Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. For me it is simple...
Felons lose their rights, commit a misdemeanor and you don't. I question the motives of the groups behind this, because they will in the end get these people the right to buy any gun they want. And these same people are very likely to get in to gun trafficing. So while I bust my butt to follow all gun laws these dregs of society get a free pass so they can vote. They are suddenly my equal again? No way, I think not.

Does an ex-wife beater really need guns again?

If you want to win, it is still important to win honestly. My whole life I have always wanted to win, but with honor. Restoring gun ownership rights to convicted felons so they can vote democrat does not impress me.

Who do you think carries out most of the gun crimes now anyway? Usually felons on parole. This is like asking to increase gun and other crime over night. He can ask for foregiveness in church and do volunteer work, he lost his right to vote.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. States can restrict WHAT rights can be restored.
For example my home State of Pennsylvania (like New York State) does NOT take away a person's Right to Vote when they are convicted of a Crime (Even a Felony).

Now, most states, follow the same rule, a Felon can NOT vote while in Prison, but once released an ex-Felon CAN vote. At the same time that ex-felon can NOT own a firearm (By both state and Federal Law). Thus the right to Vote by Ex-Felons is determined by the state the Felony occurred in NOT where an ex-felon lives in.

Now, the right to vote for such ex-felons goes with them even if they move to a state where ex-felons can NOT vote. This came up during the Florida re-Count in 2000. Several ex-felons from New York had moved to Florida. If you are convicted of a Felony in Florida you lose your right to vote PERMANETLY. Thus people who are convicted of Felonies in Florida can NOT vote, but any ex-felons whose felony occured in a states that permits ex-felons to vote can vote even in Florida.

Jeb Bush tried to remove such voters during the year 2000, but the Florida Supreme Court kept ruling that Florida had to give Full faith and Credit to New York's (and other state's) laws that permitted their ex-felons to vote. The Court kept doing that for the Federal Law on Voting is quite clear, the restriction on a Felon is determined by the State the Felony occurred in NOT the state where the Felon is living (unless they are the same state).

Like voting, states can restrict who can drive based on convictions, several states have stripped people of their right to drive for even summary drug offenses (and these laws have been up held as consitutional).

My Point (Beside showing that ex-felons can vote, but that is on a state by state basis) is any state can impose whatever restrictions it wants on its ex-felons, but other states can not impose any additional restrictions on those same ex-felons.





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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Clearly this is a state by state issue. Does Penn restore "civil rights"
selectively to exclude RKBA? What about other states?

Perhaps my question is awkard because apparently some states restore some rights automatically after an ex-felom has completed his/her sentence. Do those states have a simple process to restore all "civil rights"?


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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Pensylvania has been all over the place on this issue.
In the 19th Century it was illegal for an ex-felon to vote. That law was upheld by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in the late 1800s. In the 20th Century the Pennsylvania State Legislature changed the rule to being not able to vote for five years after the Felon was released from prison. In 2001 Superior Court ruled THAT the five year rule was a violation of the Equal protection clause of the State and Federal Constitution. The violation was the five year rule set up disparate treatment for two similar types of people (Ex-felons who had been out less than five years and Ex-felons who had been out more than five years) without any rational reason for the difference. Thus Pennsylvania joined New York and other states that no longer ban ex-felons from voting (Felons in Prison can NOT vote for the simple fact that since they are in prison they can be forced to vote the right way by prison officials, thus most states do NOT permit felons in prison to vote. Felons serving their sentences are NOT the subject of the current push to permit ex-felons to vote).

New York State has NEVER (To my knowledge) ever stripped ex-felons of the right to vote. Their Rationale has been that the Right to Vote is suspended while you are in Prison to do the potential for abuse by Prison officials, but New York law does NOT strip a person of the Right to vote as part of the punishment of a Felony.

Now, to understand this you must have a working understanding of what the difference between a Felony and a Misdemeanor was under the common law and how that affected people’ right to vote and how the expansion of the right to vote occurred.

Under the Common Law their was four types of crimes. Treason, Felonies, Misdemeanors and Summary Offences.

Treason was punishable by Death AND forfeiture of your property to the King, this included both High and Petit Treason.

Felonies were punishable by a Jail Sentence of more than one year (and may include Death) AND forfeiture of the Felon’s property to the king for one year. After that year the Felon’s property went to the Felon’s Mesne lord. In most places one’s Mesne Lord and the King was one and the same, so if you were convicted the King received everything. The problem was when the Mesne Lord and the King were two different people. For example the last Petit Treason case was in Massachusetts in 1713. Petit treason is when a servant or a wife killed their master/husband. The Governor of Massachuset was an appointee of the King, he stood to gain the wife’s property if she was convicted of petit treason (but only the use of that property for one year if she was convicted of the Felony of Murder). Thus she was tried, convicted and hung for Petit Treason instead of Murder.

Misdemeanor was punished by Sentences of less than one year (No property forfeiture except for that year imprisonment when your mesne lord has use of the property).

Summary offences were fines only.

The above have been changed in every state of the Union (and the Federal Government) but most of those changes did not occur till after 1865. The changes can be drastic (for example High Treason is now a Felony not its own special criminal class) and sometime unintentional (Under the Common Law a person who killed his parent for the inheritance, inherited. The reason being was that upon conviction the property was forfeited to the King or Mesne Lord or in the cases after 1776 the State. When the state stopped confiscating ALL of a felon’s property upon conviction as part of the reforms of the criminal law starting around 1865 you than had a strange situation developed. Convicted Murders inheriting from their parent they had killed AND being able to keep the money. When the Legislature found out about this they had to pass special laws saying you can NOT inherit from people you have murdered.)

Now, while the Criminal law have changed drastically since 1776, the Common law rule on crime affected who could vote up to today. Prior to the American Revolution voting was viewed as belonging to someone with property, thus if you lost your property for any reason (including conviction of a Felony or Treason), you lost the right to vote. After the America Revolution the view as who had the right to vote shifted to being a member of the Militia. This did not affect Felon’s right to vote for Felon’s could not be member of the Militia.

Under Jacksonian Democracy of the 1830s the Right to Vote shifted again to all white males over 21 (With Blacks included in that shift after 1865). This shift would have permitted Ex-felons to vote for the first time (this is also the time period where the idea of the modern prison started, prior to this period Felons tended to be executed, whipped, and stripped of all of their civil rights. Sometime they were “sold” for labor but most appear to have been punished by confiscation of their property and stripped of their right to vote. Given that most people depended on the relatives for assistance this was sufficient punishment for most non-violent felonies.)

Thus in the 1830s for the first time, did you see the possibility of ex-felons voting. Some states responded to this by saying ex-felons could not vote, other said they could, while some decided not to do anything. This three methods of deciding if ex-Felons can vote continues to this day. When the State Legislatures expanded the right to vote to all males over 21, this was one of the issues that had to be resolved (remember we are talking about the 1830s so in addition to whether Ex-Felons could vote, questions as to permitting Blacks and Women to Vote also came up).

Given this history of who had the right to vote, legislatures were all over the place as who could vote. In the long term it was found that to expand the right to vote to Woman and Blacks you had to change the Constitutional (Which was done to ensure first Blacks than Woman the right to vote). No such constitutional amendment ha been proposed for ex-felons to vote, thus voting is still view as a right that the State can stripped from a person under any reason it see fit (Other than race or sex). Since felons under the common law (like Woman, Blacks and non-property owners) had no right to vote, the State Legislature can stripped them of that right.

How does this affect RKBA?, Under the Common law people had the right to own a weapon even if they did NOT have the right to vote. Felon’s could be stripped of that right as part of their punishment (Just like they can be stripped of the right to have a driver’s license, the Right to Vote or any other right the State Legislature decides the ex-felon no longer has do to his conviction). Under the theory of Voting the dominants in the USA since the 1830s people have the right to vote UNLESS after a hearing or trial they have been stripped of that right. Since Felons could NOT vote under the common law, the Legislatures can strip Ex-felons of their right to vote as part of the punishment for being convicted of a felony. Please note, these “additional punishments” are viewed as being part of being an convicted Felon NOT a part of the “Punishment” for the felony you are convicted of. Thus you do NOT have to be told of the loss of such rights at your trial.

Other rights that can be (and have been stripped) from ex-Felons in addition ot the right to possess a firearm and the Right to vote has been the right to get a Driver’s License, the Right to obtain welfare. Megan’s laws have been a problem, for the courts have started to look at Megan laws restriction as punishment for the crime they were convicted of instead of being an ex-felon. What this means is unless the felon was told of his duty to register with the local police at the time of his conviction OR Guilty Plead, it was NOT part of his sentence and as such NOT enforceable against him.

My Boss took a similar case to Superior Court about ten years ago, he had won a person’s right to get back his driver’s license (the Offender had served his sentence for a drug related crime) on the grounds that State did not tell him at his sentencing that he would lose his right to Drive. Superior Court ruled that the ban on driving was part of the Sentence for the Drug crime and since he had not been told of that part of his sentence it would be an unconstitutional denial of Due Process to strip him of his right to drive. i.e. the Judge should have told him he would lose his right to drive. The Supreme Court reversed on the grounds that the Right to Drive was NOT part of the Sentence for the felony but a restriction on any ex-felon and as such does NOT have to be told to the defendant at the time of his guilty plead.

Thus the court have tended to view the rights of ex-felons as being less than non ex-felons, no matter how good a life the ex-felon have lived since their conviction. Thus the state legislature can stripped an ex-felon of rights the state legislature is forbidden to strip from non-ex-felons.

The above I know is strange, but it is the best I can do to answer your question, given the history of the right to vote and the RKBA.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks
:hi:
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