Dems introduce microstamping ammo bills. Will Dem Party be accused of gun-grabbing?

[jody]

S.2605 Title: A bill to require certain semiautomatic pistols manufactured, imported, or sold by Federal firearms licensees to be capable of microstamping ammunition.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SN02605:@@@L&summ2=m&

Sponsor: Sen Kennedy, Edward M.
Sen Durbin, Richard - 2/11/2008
Sen Feinstein, Dianne - 2/11/2008
Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. - 2/11/2008
Sen Menendez, Robert - 2/11/2008
Sen Reed, Jack - 2/11/2008
Sen Schumer, Charles E. - 2/11/2008
Sen Whitehouse, Sheldon - 2/11/2008


H.R.5266 Title: To require certain semiautomatic pistols manufactured, imported, or sold by Federal firearms licensees to be capable of microstamping ammunition.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR05266:@@@L&summ2=m&

Sponsor: Rep Becerra, Xavier
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 2/7/2008
Rep Emanuel, Rahm - 2/7/2008
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn - 2/7/2008
Rep Rangel, Charles B. - 2/7/2008

[villager]

1. only by you and the folks in this forum...

Alas.

[jody]

2. Why ignore nearly 70% of Democrats who agree that RKBA is a natural, inherent, inalienable right? nt

[villager]

4. so, you're claiming 70% of Democrats are against micro-stamping ammo?

Which doesn't do anything to take yer precious guns from you.

If that's the claim -- if this has been polled (More than 2/3 of Democrats against id'ing ammo to keep crimes harder to solve!) -- I'd love to see that link!

[jody]

5. You know I said "nearly 70% of Democrats who agree that RKBA is a natural, inherent, inalienable

right".

Nice try though. :rofl:

[villager]

6. Nice try -- conflating your OP with another issue! So then, they support ammo stamping?

and your original "gun grabber" nonsense is bogus?

(and one notices, of course, still no link for that 70% figure!)

Not even your usual "try," Jody!

(Snarky emoticon here...)

[jody]

9. We disagree on how voters will interpret actions of Kennedy, Feinstein, Shumer as gun-grabbing. n/t

[villager]

14. to say the least.

n/t

[EricTeri]

7. If you dont think that would do anything to take guns from the people

does that mean you wouldn't object to having every piece of paper you could purchase microstamped? After all, that doesn't take away the right of freedom of the press, it just makes certain that any published news stories can be traced to their original publisher in case someone says something which is demonstrably untrue...

Seem to recall something called the "Stamp Act" which got a bunch of guys in powdered wigs a little worked up a couple hundred or so years back...

[villager]

15. no -- it means bullets, which kill people, aren't paper.

I realize that's a tough stretch in this forum, but still...

[sabre73]

18. I am confused......

You have said in the past that it is guns that kill people but now you think it is bullets that kill people?

Which is it?

I am just wondering so I know which one to look out for when I am alone at home. I would hate to see my guns try and kill me (though my guns and I have had many a long discussion about it and they ALL assure me that they can't do it by themselves.)

Now I have to have a sit down chat with ALL of my bullets and give them a chance to make their intentions clear to me. (You know, before they attempt to kill me)

I wonder if this is some type of elaborate conspiracy between my guns and my bullets? Maybe that is what my guns meant when they said "We really can't kill you unless we have help, so don't worry.)

Shh....Wait..... I think I heard a noise.... It might be that they are coming for me right now! Thanks for the heads up Villager! I may very well owe you my life. Especially if I still have enough time to escape those mutineers! Diabolical guns and bullets!!! :yoiks: :o

[EricTeri]

32. No it ISNT a stretch

You want to make it one to justify your fears, but conceptually it is the same.

[SteveM]

62. I once saw a bullet tried for murder in Roswell. Your point is hollow.

[bossy22]

11. micro stamping

sounds good, but really isnt useful....a criminal can easily take a nail filer and in about 1 minute that markings will be gone....also with normal wear and tear the markings will be gone way before the life on the gun is over. its stupid...and i know you are anti-gun, but as an adult, you should surely be able to see the many shortcommings of this program

i might add that there is very little room for improvment....so far we havent been able to make a "wear proof" part for a machine. Parts wear and this legislation counts on parts not wearing.

[NewMoonTherian]

50. Easy fix.

The legislation can simply require that the firearms be brought in regularly for re-engraving - at the owner's expense, needless to say - on pain of fines and confiscation.

[SteveM]

63. Psst. That's why I own a revolver. Don't tell anyone.

[liberal4truth]

70. Bingo!

[sabre73]

13. True it does not

take away the guns but it does make them "more" dangerous. Ammunition has become an exact science; should you enter an outside element (like a stamp)it can cause disastrous things to happen. Namely gun malfunctions resulting in our police officers not being able to use their guns when they need them or bullets tumbling and not traveling the way that they were intended to. This could cause more Innocent people to get shot by accident.

There are actually a thousand different things that could go wrong as a result of micro stamping.

As far as the Law enforcement side of it goes most of our prosecutors here and in Texas have stated that they are afraid that they will not be able to convict as many felons as a result of "plausible deniability" when it comes to a suspect of trial saying "I lost that box of ammo" or "I sold that box of ammo"

Plus it would absolutely cause serious problems with "black market ammo" being made and used in the commission of a crime.

Never forget that a lot of gun owners, 1/3 of them, know how to make their own bullets. They would not abide by stamping simply because of the danger factor.

[Turbo Teg]

39. If they Microstamp ammo

I'll just file it off, or use un-stamped brass and or bullets. Nothing a dremel can't fix.

[liberal4truth]

71. Nothing we cant fix either. Get caught will a modified bullet and its off to jail for you.

You have just admitted that you must be involved in some manner of nefarious activity if you are so concerned about where your ammo is found.

[bossy22]

78. can't do that

impractical, guns will sometimes mutilate cartridges as they eject them, or maybe the stamp would press hard enough because the gun was gunked up- you would be sending many innocent people to court because of the laws of reality.

not to mention i don't think a criminal is going to care that a Class B misdemeanor is tagged on to his capital crime

[zanne]

44. So, are you going to provide the link for your "statistics"? nt

[Tejas]

56. How does it feel?

Pulling stats out of ones a** is not that hard, if Helmke et al can do it so can you AND me. I mean, what's fair is fair huh?

;)

[slackmaster]

3. Are they trying to sabotage the Presidential election for us?

:argh:

[johnbraun]

34. "Never attribute to malice what can otherwise be attributed to outright incompetence."

:)

[SteveM]

41. Incompetence is the graveyard of conspiracy.

[AlinPA]

8. Just curious, how does "microstamping ammunition" limit RKBA? I am not

challenging anyone, I just don't know much about ammunition.

[jody]

12. Rather than give you a cursory and imperfect reply, please browse the DU threads below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=156486#158355

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=150401

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=149306

Have a great day. :hi:

[krispos42]

23. In short, this only works if the government has a firearm registry

of some kind. In this case, the firing pin would have your gun's serial number etched in it so that each time the gun fired, it would stamp the number into the primer of the cartridge.

But this only works if they have a national registry of firearms. But, since most crimes are committed with stolen guns...

Also, note that this does not cover revolvers, which do not spray spent cases all over the ground.

The question is, how do you feel about having your private stuff on a federal registry? Lots of crime is committed using computers as a major tool. Would you like having to register your computer with the federal government? How about each spool of CD-Rs and DVD-Rs having a serial number on every disc, with that number registered with the Feds?

Or how about money? How would you like it if every time you went to the ATM and withdrew cash, the machine logged your name and the serial numbers of the bills you got and put them in a federal database someplace? If Bush proposed this plan tomorrow, would you think a) power grab, or b) Bush really cares about lowering crime?

[AlinPA]

24. I'm not arguing with you about this. I just didn't understand how it works technically. Jeez.

Lighten up.

[jmg257]

26. Alin, there is usually a set of micro characters on a part of the gun,

typically the tip of the firing pin, or maybe in the chamber of the pistol (usually part of the barrel in a semi auto). When the pin strikes the primer, or the brass expands into the chamber, a set of characters is imprinted on the fired casing/brass. Each gun's character code would be unique.

The problems are it would be QUITE easy for a criminal to swap out the firing pin, swap out or sand down the chamber/barrel, or even to get fired brass from some other gun (from any of the 1000s of ranges around the country) to leave at a scene, or to just use one of the 300 million+ guns out there that don't have such technology.

I think one of the biggest nightmares is fired brass. EVERY round ever fired should be accounted for - picked up and discarded - by police, civilians, any one else subject to using arms of this type. Millions of rounds are now potential "evidence" that could seeded at a crime scene.

Also of course, is the added expense of incorporating the process into manufacturing, and keeping a data base - a registration scheme - of every gun sold and exactly to who. Because registration leads to confiscation - it is an infringement.

[ac2007]

27. Plus, it won't solve crimes

The fundamental flaw with microstamping is the same with registration: It doesn't lead to a criminal.

All microstamping will do is lead to the last legal owner of the firearm that fired the cartridge. And since criminals don't typically buy guns through legal channel, its ability to help solve crimes is useless. As jmg257 mentions, this can introduce a legal element of doubt into the process by allowing a criminal to "seed" brass from another gun at the scene to mislead police. And if that wasn't enough, revolvers don't eject brass.

Microstamping is another attempt at creating an illegal registry of firearms in violation of 18 USC 926(a). It is easily defeated by swapping out firing pins. It is a patented technology as well like encoded ammunition and is being pushed by the patent holders through lobbying to create a government granted monopoly market.

Yet another attempt to make gun ownership difficult, onerous and demonize it further.

[AlinPA]

29. Thanks.

[AlinPA]

28. Thanks, that explains it.

[SteveM]

42. The only thing worse than incompetence is contrivance...

I alway have a suspicion of Rube Goldberg contrivance when it impinges on a relatively simple object or idea; there's a air of desperation and "gotcha" politics which has no bearing on a social problem.

I think Krispos was posing a series of Socratic questions for anyone dealing with this issue. I don't think he was getting hot under the collar at you. He saves that for some certain others!

[Boomer 50]

38. There is a physical danger to microstamping too

First, let's look at the simple one, the firing pin. Putting a microstamp on a firing pin is asking for a dangerous situation called "pierced primers". This is when for whatever reason, the primer cup tears or is pierced when fired. This causes an extremely dangerous situation where the burning gasses are not contained and can cause damage to the gun or the shooter.

Second, microstamping the chamber. There are several issues with this. First of all, we need to take into account that the pressures are quite high inside the chamber. A standard 9mm round will produce about 35,000 psi. If you are doing relief stamping in the chamber, you are creating a weak spot that could easily blow out harming or killing the operator, or bystanders. Think of the liability this would cause.

It really isn't feasable to have a microstamp that projects into the chamber as this would cause functioning issues, but should they go that route, the problem becomes two fold. You have sharp edges that will bite into the brass potentially causing a split case that can lead to a catastrophic failure or worse, the gun works fine and due to repeated firing, a hotspot forms and gee, you get cookoffs. A VERY DANGEROUS THING. All it takes is one thousandths of an inch to produce a hotspot in a barrel.

This is why idiots in power should not be allowed to put forth such bills unless they've had years upon years of experience in the firearms field and can prove their expertise though testing. These people need to be held accountable for stupid laws that put people in needless danger. At the very least, they need a good bitch slapping.

[WWFZD]

43. Please Boomer

if you haven't already, would you forward that to your local Representative?
You have summarized the risks involving the machining very well.
What pressures are involved in firing a S&W 460? A lot higher than 35,000 psi I believe, and that would close the revolver loophole.

[Boomer 50]

46. I have

Many don't want to hear it and those that do are just too ignorant on the subject to care.

According to G&A magazine, the .460 S&W has a maximum working pressure load around 65,000 PSI, that is DAMN high for a handgun round. WOW. I think that is probably the only handgun round I've ever seen that I'd take a knife wound over. The pressures are comparable to the .300 Winchester Magnum or the .338 Lapua Magnum.

With the thinner case walls of the .460, there is no way in the world I'd ever light one off in a gun with etchings or stampings in the chamber. I'd never touch one off with a firing pin that wasn't nice and round and smooth either. Talk about suicidal.

The first time someone gets hurt or dies because of this technology, the company that produces it will be sued out of existance. And they can make it a crime to modify a weapon to remove these stamps but I'll do it anyway simply for the fact of safety. I dare them to try to take me to court over it. I'll have them for breakfast.

Let me put it this way, I wouldn't even fire a .22 lr in a chamber that could cause case ruptures or case seperation. Yikes.

[liberal4truth]

75. We will leave that up to the firearms experts that are advising congress on the details.

[sergeiAK]

82. You mean the "experts" employed by the company that patented microstamping? -nt

[Boomer 50]

83. We would be well advised to fire those "experts"

They are advocating a very dangerous idea that will get people killed. But, I will support it if, and only if there is a clause in the law that allows someone injured to sue the legislators who vote for this personally for damages (or the families if the person is killed). I'd also want the legislators to be criminally liable for any injuries or deaths that result from damage caused by this technology.

If they can't put their money where their mouth is, they need to sit down and shut up. I've got a lot of years of firearms technological experience under my belt. I somehow doubt anyone advocating this type of dangerous technology has any idea what they are talking about.

[krispos42]

37. I know, I know...

But it's for the other viewers of this thread as well.

[Turbo Teg]

40. It's a pipe dream.

But all it will really do is make ammo more expensive, or a gun more expensive. If you have a firing pin that stamps the primer with a serial number every time it is fired, it will slow down production times of firearms, and that increases cost for two reasons, A. Production goes down while demand stays the same, B. You now have to pay for new tooling. Why would using the firing pin as a stamper be bad? Because it's way to easy to beat. All you need to do is get a new firing pin without any stamping and done. It takes me about 3 minutes to swap a firing pin on my Glock. Can't get ahold of a firing pin? Use a dremel on the one you got. This also doesn't work for revolvers. This on top of the fact that most guns used in a crime are stolen anyway.

Stamping casings or bullets are bad for about the same reasons. Use a file and get off the stampings on the ammo. This will more than likely create a black market for un stamped ammo as well, and we've all seen how good a job the government does at "The war on drugs!". Also, who would keep the records? The dealers? Do you know how much ammo gets sold everyday? We sell thousands of rounds of ammo EVERYDAY! There would be no space to keep records if we had to keep them like the 4473 form. If someone were to buy 2000 rounds of ammo in 50 round boxes, there'd be 40 boxes of serialized ammo that we'd have to account for on one person alone, taking record of each individual box. We'd litteraly run out of space keeping all these records. It would be at least a 3 ring binder everyday.

[gorfle]

30. They already do.

of some kind. In this case, the firing pin would have your gun's serial number etched in it so that each time the gun fired, it would stamp the number into the primer of the cartridge.

I know that already there are extremely tight chain-of-custody tracking requirements for firearms. Every time a firearm transfers from one place to another through an FFL dealer they keep exquisite records of the transfer. These records are open to Federal inspection at any time.

I have no doubt that provided with a serial number, the federal government could track it to its last FFL transfer of ownership within a day.

Of course any private transfers break the chain.

[liberal4truth]

74. It makes tracking a gun to the killers hands much easier for homicide detectives, not the RKBA.

of course that assumes they have any such right.

[bossy22]

10. this is going nowhere

this legislation is just introduced to appease gun control supporters- look at the names- they are the usual suspects. Senate Leadership (harry reid) is pro-gun and pelosi really keeps her mouth shut.

Microstamping legislation is like the partial birth abortion ban. Its symbolic and only serves to piss people off.

but in any case- even if you are anti-gun you still have to admit that it is a stupid idea. It's like putting a serial number on treads of tires, with use the number would be gone. After about 1,000 rounds the marking will probably be worn down, since it will be the most protruding, it will absorb the most force.

[east texas lib]

16. Accused? No. Sadly...

They will merely reinforce existing perception on the issue of firearms. And
help the GOP. Anyone desiring pre-legislation ammunition or firearms will just
go to Nevada or Arizona. Of course, laws making those acts illegal will have
to be passed too. And we'll all feel so much safer. Why, I do already. Don't
you?

[ConcernedCanuk]

17. One thing is for sure - if they DO get it passed , USED semis will be worth a fortune!

.
.
.

They are on the verge of creating a HUGE black market for used semi-automatic pistols,

so if ya own one keep it a secret -

Gun thefts will just soar.

And of course the thinking criminals are already planning a little fortune by smuggling NEW ones from another country.

Idiotic idea this stamping.

[bossy22]

21. i dont think so

the technology is so flawd that 1 min with a nail file could basically get rid of the stamp

[DonP]

31. Close "The Revolver Loophole"!

I wonder how long it will take the brain trust that keeps proposing these laws to realize that the systems they propose only work if you have the used brass from the crime scene?

Then we will get the Brady mailings telling us to write them checks to close help the Revolver Loophole "for the children" because Smith & Wesson, Taurus and other revolver manufacturers are "skirting" the law.

[johnbraun]

35. And what do you know, the most common crime gun is the .38 revolver.

Once again, we see the efforts of these quisling Dems are about control, not about reducing crime in any way.

[L1A1Rocker]

19. Can someone that knows this bill answer me this question.

Is there an exemption for police?

[bossy22]

22. not written in the bill

but i believe the CA law has an exception for LEO....as usual there is always an exception, else they would never support it.

Don't get me wrong, i support our law enforcement officers but im sick of the double standard. I love how they want me to put a fingerprint identifier on my gun and say it wont fail, then won't put it on theirs because it has been proven to fail.

[Lex1775]

20. It is already happening where I work...

I'm in Phoenix, which is supposedly "John McCain country", except just about everyone out here hates him. He DOES have his supporters, the 65 and older snow bird crowd, other then that... not a lot. Anyway, I'm sitting in the office today and one of our Engineers drops that on my desk. "See," he says, "They're at it again. They can't take them outright so they are trying to backdoor us."

What was I supposed to say?

Months and months of trying to convince them that those days are over for the Dem party vanished in ten minutes.

Edit: And they all agree that it won't go anywhere, but it is the mere action of it. I heard three separate times this afternoon "Dem's are out for our guns again!"

[jody]

25. The Dem sponsors of the two bills seen determined to lose elections. n/t

[WWFZD]

33. Great post, that's exactly how I see it

"And they all agree that it won't go anywhere, but it is the mere action of it. I heard three separate times this afternoon "Dem's are out for our guns again!"

***************

I've never registered under a political party and most likely never will. The last time I voted, it was for a Democrat I supported solidly in '06 - Ted Strickland for governor of Ohio. I trust him and think he's a dedicated public servant. He says he supports the 2A. The NRA strongly endorsed him. His voting record over years in the house proves it. And frankly I'm real tired of the Republican party.

Garbage like this bill and that HR. 1022 last year and the AWB lead me to the only conclusion that one can draw. At the national level the Republican party supports my 2A rights more than the Democratic party. I wish it wasn't true but it is. Absolutley there are strong pro 2A, freedom supporting Dems and there are authoritarian anti-freedom Reps but overall it is what it is.

If these Dems who author, sponsor and support these bills aren't putting them forth as their ideas of legitimate legislation than what the fuck are they doing? Aren't there other matters that need to be addressed? And if there aren't then quit playing with the process. Watch TV, appear at the opening of the new multiplex, join the Republicans and pick up dudes in airport bathrooms or go to swingers clubs. Do anything, just drop these efforts that are ultimately aimed at the confiscation of civilian owned firearms. I'm not fooled by it.

[johnbraun]

36. Me too. After I had convinced them that Obama and Hillary had given up on the gun control albatross

they were ready to vote Dem. The microstamping bill sent us back to 1994, and now three registered Dem gun owners I know are staying home instead of voting Dem: "Dammit, you said they weren't going to pull this again!"

Ugh. I am tired of the gun controllers ruining our chances yet again, and I am tired of apologizing for them.

[Lasher]

47. Yep, I couldn't have said it better.

That's just how it is here. And many of these people are single issue voters, while gun control proponents are typically not.

[Plague]

45. We've already gone over this..

These sorts of microstamping systems are tremendously flawed. These sorts of laws don't cover or discuss any of a substantial number of important variables.
It's a 'feel good' bill with a strictly emotional appeal that won't do anything to save people or prevent gun violence.

[WWFZD]

48. Ohio is primed and ready for a Democrat president

There's not really a whole lot the Dems can do to F it up.
Cleveland and Toledo are Democratic locks no matter what, Cincinnati is Republican. Only one little issue I can see that would swing Ohio to the Repubs. Central, southern and eastern Ohio will not support a gungrabber, especially one that supports "hunters rights". And micro-stamping, AWB's and HR 1022 type measures will ensure a huge turnout aginst them, myself included.
Drop it, just drop it. If the Democrat nominee comes out against new gun grabs he or she has my vote and the vote of a lot of people I know.

[jody]

49. BO wants a new AWB and Clinton voted for a new AWB. Many voters classify Hillary as a gun-grabber.

The media and others have not yet highlighted BO's affiliation with the Joyce Foundation and its proxy VPC and efforts to ban handguns.

It's going to be interesting to see how BO spins the BO/Joyce/VPC relationship.

[WWFZD]

51. I know Jody

but give me credit for trying. I'm not a Democrat, I'm just somebody who's had enough of this iteration of the Republican party; authoritarian, anti-freedom, at the whim of the all controlling religious right. Ohillary and Bama are on the same side of the gun control coin. To both of you I'm ready for a Democratic president and I'm not alone, just please drop guns from your campaign. I want to hear one of you come out and say that you will not enact any new legislation regarding firearms, call it flip-flop or a change of heart whatever you want just say it and mean it, and don't even mention "hunters rights".

[jody]

52. Several people on this forum have suggested Hillary & BO just pledge to veto any bill that congress

sends them as president, that infringes upon the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense and that includes over 80 million voters.

That position would also support the 2004 Democratic Party Platform that promises "We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms".

[Tejas]

58. It concerns the BOR

so it should indeed be a prominent question in Dem debates.

NOT a glancing inquiry but a full-blown question in need of a full-blown answer......an answer that should take longer than 3 minutes, that way they would both run out of the usual speil and have to give some cold hard facts on their stance.

Don't need endless quizzes on environment, spending, health care, etc etc etc. This is the BOR we're talking about, so let's make them talk about it.

[ManBearPig]

53. Ammunition Acts are disgusting.

There are some serious problems with this new crazy by the left.

1) One it is a back door registration process, as it requires logs and ids of everyone who purchases the ammo. These logs are fed to all the LEO. They can't get this done with guns, so the go after the ammo.

2) It makes reloading ammo illegal.

3) If you go to the shooting range and leave just one of your brass casings behind, some criminal can pick it up and frame your *ss for a crime you didn't commit.

4) It will raise the price of ammo to absolute ridiculous levels.

5) This is all a push from one company to get a monopoly and lots of cash. And of course the Bradys are behind it.

6) Besides #3, there are other easy ways for criminals to defeat this bs; scrapping of the serial numbers, using old ammo..etc.

7) It turns law-abbiding people into criminals because of their stock piles of ammo that isn't stamped. And to add insult to injury, they are demanding that you turn in all this ammo that you legally purchased and they won't even pay you for it.

I am so happy that I live in Missouri; one of the states that are giving a big middle finger to this communist piece of crap. We score very low on the Brady's Score Card. The only thing we don't allow (sadly) are silencers; everything else is fair game. But we all should have expected this. Since the liberals have all but lost their war on the law-abbiding's guns, we knew they would eventually turn to the ammo.

[iverglas]

54. look in the closet! check under the bed!

Whaddaya see??!?!!?

Commies commies commies!!11!1!1!! Or at the very least, "the liberals".

Well, some do, it seems.

Others probably saw a list containing elected Democrats.

Ah well, same diff, I guess.

[Tejas]

57. Not that you have one iota of a clue

as to what actually takes place here.

Had your trains near the border raided lately?

Tried to apprehend foreign nationals firing full-auto weapons at you on your soil?




I'll stop there, you will have enough problems in the future dealing with your government after they get through with your law-abiding gunowners. Good luck with their plans on female civil-rights.

[iverglas]

60. the commies are invading????

Or is it just the liberals?

Good luck with their plans on female civil-rights.

I give up. You're going to have to enlighten me: what's a female civil-right?

With bated breath, I wait.

[Tejas]

59. I agree, though the clowns

may come in and joke about civil rights. Sad situation when they don't care about what the politicos take away from them, gives their argument much less weight (if any weight whatsoever).

[liberal4truth]

73. So are dead, bullet riddled bodies. This law will help catch some killers, so wrong with that idea?

Oh, thats right. You claim you have a right to own a gun.

And this law INFRINGES on your "rights" just how, exactly?

You gun-nuts talk a good talk about "public safety" and being "law-abiding" but
when it comes right down to it you don't care one darn bit about anyone but
yourselves, your deadly little toys and the unwanted gun-culture nonsense
that you foist on a public that doesn't know any better, thanks to the NRA.

[ManBearPig]

77. "Deadly Little Toys"

I take it that since you are for stripping the law-abbiding of their "play things", that you are also for police, military, and anyone else in government not having these "little toys"?

[virginia mountainman]

79. The law is STUPID...and extremely easy to defeat

Mostly a repost from late last year....

Look at these photo I just took, it is of a bolt of an SKS semi automatic rifle, (it was handy to the computer here in the living room, to be CLEANED) You can see CLEARLY the bolt face (the part that comes into contact with the round, the extractor (the "claw" on the upper left and side of the bolt face), and the firing pin in the middle, it is being pushed out, by my finger on the backside of the bolt itself

The firing pin and extractor is EASILY removable with a hammer and a small screwdriver (to be crude) or a hammer and a brass drift (to do it the proper way without marring the surface).

Now tell me, What is to stop me from taking ANY common metal file, or even a piece of scrap steel, and simply scratching the surfaces of the bolt face, the extractor, and bolt face???

I figure, with a small triangular file, I could "deface the micro stamping" in less than 20 seconds.



Or I could simply ORDER some new parts...

http://www.sksparts.com/sksparts.html

http://www.e-gunparts.com/model.asp?idDept=229

Also keep in mind, Many firearms would be EASIER to "de-microstamp" than the ol SKS Carbine.

Not to mention, that these parts, are considered "wear" items and extractors, and firing pins DO break..and they do wear, The micro stamping would be lucky to survive, 100 rnds,even without the help of the file. So if you make it a crime to "deface" the stamps, you will basically make everyone a criminal as their guns wear....But that is the intent, right??!?!!? Everyone a felon!

BTW, that sound you hear, is the Locomotive that just crashed thru the micro stamping argument...

Now please present arguments to the contrary.... If only anit's would learn a LITTLE bit about firearms, you would not be so easy to maul in debate. But their again, when they do learn a little, they tend NOT to be an anti gun anymore.

[Tejas]

55. I tell you what

if Feinenstein and Schumer keep it up, McCain will be able to promenade across the stage in a speedo and a bra and STILL get elected.

[iverglas]

61. oh no, Paco!

McCain will be able to promenade across the stage in a speedo and a bra

He's a homosexual AND a girl??

Who knew ...

[Tejas]

65. You're not funny, keep your ethnic inuendos to yourself n/t

[iverglas]

67. oh no ... what??

He's a Polish homosexual girl??

[radioburning]

64. Yes. They are already accused of grabbing guns. A lot...

Seriously, look on any gun message board. Dems are mentioned on gun boards almost as much as Republicans are on moveon.org...

[Tejas]

66. Brady praising every move of Schumer

and the rest sure doesn't help either.


Schumer: with friends like Helmke, who needs enemies?

[iverglas]

68. ain't it grand?!?

Dems are mentioned on gun boards almost as much as Republicans are on moveon.org...

And undoubtedly Democrats ("Dems"?) are mentioned just as much on anti-choice boards, and anti-GLBT rights boards, and anti-teaching evolution boards, and and and ... ain't it grand?? Being one of the good(er) guys must make you proud!

[Wickerman]

80. I like Lou Reed n/t

[radioburning]

81. What's N/T?

What is it?

[liberal4truth]

69. Yes, this is the way of the future. No ammo, no gunfire. And forensics can find the bullets & track

all the way back to the owner or buyer.

This is a win-win for both sides, as long as the gun-owner never commits a crime with a gun, of course.

[bossy22]

72. unless

the person has a peice of sandpaper- than the whole system goes bye bye- and last time i checked sandpaper is available at your local hardware store

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RSstoppingby]

84. idea

or heres an idea, the criminals can pick up their brass or use a revolver.