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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:17 AM
Original message
House bill to track guns

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JACKSON DISPATCH
Richard Head ©

March 29, 2008


House Bill mandates GPS systems for new firearms.

House commitee was handed back HR4108 for clarification on patent exclusions and manufacturer compliance schedules, then passed with an 8-3 vote. It now goes to the floor for its 2nd reading which can and probably will be waived due to recent changes in expedition rules as part of cost-reform measures mandated in the Congressional budget.

VIDEO (you must have java enabled)

This bill would/will require GPS capability for new handguns manufactured in the US by February 2010. Though no provisions of grace periods for compliance by manufacturers (US or abroad) were apparent in the summary,

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an aid speaking on condition of anonymity gave assurance that there were indeed avenues provided for unique situations.
Sponsors of HR4108 applauded committee efforts and remarked that with recent advancements in microchip technology/manufacturing that this will not only pave the way for major improvements in data retrieval, but will also streamline coordination of Federal/State/Local resources in the War on Drugs in which firearms are a major cause of.

As reported in January, the previous attempt to attach this bill to the 2008 Federal Land Management Act was retracted due to the aforementioned addendums needing to be clarified, the previously mentioned waiver on the floor of the House should clear the way for placement on the April 7th docket.


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The antis will just LOVE this! :(
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Thepricebreaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yea thats going to work..
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. NOT
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh, this is an excellent idea
Now my guns will always know where they are. :eyes:
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where.... ? (nt)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. GPS aside


If they can come up with a way to microchip my cat, why aren't firearms already been microchipped?

File that off ...

Of course, then there has to be some record kept in order for the thing to be useful to anyone besides insurance companies.

Police services in Canada routinely assume that if a firearm recovered in connection with a crime has an intact serial number, it was trafficked into Canada from the US. No reason to obliterate serial numbers if there is no paper trail of possession (i.e. owners don't have to account for private sales). Firearms with obliterated serial numbers are asssumed to have originated in Canada, and been obtained either by theft or illegal transfer. The serial number, here, would allow it to be traced to its last legal owner, thus connecting either a criminal to a theft or a "law-abiding gun owner" to an illegal transfer.


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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. you are mistaken
"No reason to obliterate serial numbers if there is no paper trail of possession (i.e. owners don't have to account for private sales"

There is a paper trail- its called Federal Form 4473 and the records of individual gun dealers- thats how gun traces are accomplished. Serial numbers are routinely filed off US guns so they cannot be traced back to their origin- especially in the instance of a straw purchase.

You must have a pretty stupid police force for them to assume that since the serial number was destroyed- it has to be Canadian in origin.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. lordy lordy lordy


There is a paper trail- its called Federal Form 4473 and the records of individual gun dealers- thats how gun traces are accomplished.

Yes ... and after the person who made the purchase from the licensed dealer sells the firearm on to someone else in a parking lot outside the WalMart in response to a classified ad ...?


You must have a pretty stupid police force for them to assume that since the serial number was destroyed- it has to be Canadian in origin.

Well, if they were just assuming that, and if you had a clue what you were talking about, what you say might be worth reading.

The assumption is based on a long record of traces done through the BATFE, under cross-border initiatives to identify crime guns and trafficking patterns.

This document is apparently no longer available on the net:
http://www.torontopoliceboard.on.ca/minutes/2004/040122pmm.pdf
but fortunately I have quoted from it extensively here in the past:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=62366&mesg_id=62553
(Toronto City Council minutes, no copyright issue)

At its meeting of August 14, 2003, the Board requested that the Chief of Police report on the use of illegally imported firearms in Toronto crime; and whether there are initiatives that may be undertaken, in co-operation with the Federal government and possibly weapons manufacturers, to curb the illegal importation of firearms into Canada, from the United States (Board Minute No. P230/03 refer). This report will identify the nature and origin of known firearms used in Toronto crime, and provide a summary of actions currently undertaken by this Service to manage this issue.

The issue of illegally imported firearms, and indeed any firearm being used in the commission of criminal acts in the City of Toronto is of a paramount concern. I have requested the Special Investigation Services Firearms Enforcement Unit to research the issue of illegally imported firearms.

It is apparent, as identified in the attached report Appendix A, that although smuggled firearms have been positively identified as crime guns, there is an emerging trend toward the use of firearms of domestic origin by the criminal element. As set out in page 2 of Appendix A, only 24% of traceable crime guns have been traced to a United States origin. Initiatives developed through the Canada/United States Cross Border Crime Forum (set out on pages 5-7 of Appendix A); will assist all law enforcement efforts in reducing the number of firearms entering this country from the United States and help reduce the tragic human toll often associated with them.

This Service must continue to focus investigative efforts on illegally imported firearms, but must also give greater investigative emphasis to domestic crime guns. These firearms are being obtained in increasing numbers from residential and commercial break and enters as well as through diversion from manufacturers and apparent exploitation of the de-registration processes in place within the Canadian Firearms Registry System.

Interdicting these sources for domestic crime guns is within our capacity as a Canadian law enforcement agency. The collaborative initiatives set out in Appendix A, undertaken in partnership with all levels of government and other stakeholders will aid in restricting the opportunity for lawful Canadian firearms to fall prey to the criminal intention to convert them for use against citizens of the City of Toronto. Further, the plea-bargaining of firearm related crimes (set out on page 9 of Appendix A), must be discontinued in an effort to reaffirm the commitment of the criminal justice system to the protection of the public and therein re-establish public confidence and sense of safety and security.

... Although there are a number of firearms reportedly used in various criminal acts each year in the City of Toronto, these firearms do not routinely come into the possession of the police for examination and origin determination. Handguns are the preferred weapons for use in the commission of criminal acts. This preference is clearly represented in Toronto Police Service records for the period of 1998 to August 30, 2003, wherein there have been 325 homicides in Toronto, 133 involving the use of a firearm. Of this total, 124 murders, or 93% of firearm involved homicides, involved the use of a handgun. Nine homicides involved the use of a rifle or shotgun.

... Toronto Police Service records show that in the period of January 01st to September 9th, 2003 a total of 1468 firearms have been submitted to the Property Evidence Management Unit for a variety of reasons, including evidence, held for investigation, safekeeping and destruction. Of these, 183 have been determined to meet the definition of a crime gun. It is this number, one hundred and eighty-three (183) crime guns, that presents the only opportunity for analysis to determine how many smuggled firearms are actually used in Toronto crime. The Gang and Gun Task Force have determined that one hundred and thirty-nine (139) of these crime guns fall into the following categories:
- 26 long barrelled firearms
- 11 firearms registered in Canada
- 5 reported as stolen
- 4 firearms were never issued a serial number by manufacturer
- 16 were too old to be traced for ownership
- 32 had their serial numbers obliterated
- 45 are still under investigation

Investigative experience of the Gun and Gang Task Force and the Firearms Enforcement Unit has established that long barrelled firearms are primarily of Canadian origin. Long barrelled weapons are historically stolen from private citizens and converted for use in criminal acts. For this reason, long barrelled crime guns are not automatically submitted for tracing. Firearms with obliterated serial numbers have been historically believed to be of United States origin. A recent Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit (PWEU) investigation has shed light on this historical assumption and it is now believed that these types of firearms may also be of Canadian origin.

Local investigations suggest that many of the 32 crime guns with obliterated serial numbers are of Canadian origin. Investigations have identified that criminals are well aware of the absence of legislation requiring the registering of firearms in the United States. Armed with this knowledge they have developed a sense of confidence that the firearm will not be successfully traced back to them so there is less concern over removing the serial number. Efforts are currently underway to determine the origin of some 26 firearms seized in relation to a recent investigation. It is suspected that the majority of these firearms will be traced to a Canadian source.

The remaining forty-four (44) of the one hundred and eighty-three (183) crime guns have been submitted for tracing to the United States Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). To date 30 of the 44 submitted guns have been traced to a United States based first retail purchaser. Therefore, assuming that all 44 submitted guns are successfully traced to a United States origin, only 24% of traceable known crime guns, as previously defined, have been smuggled into Canada. The origin of all other firearms that have been used in reported criminal acts but have eluded recovery is subject to conjecture.

While the use of smuggled firearms is a continuing concern, the aforesaid numbers identify an emerging issue for law enforcement agencies and that is the trafficking in domestic firearms and their subsequent use in criminal acts. The Firearms Enforcement Unit of Special Investigation Services, in partnership with the Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit, recognize this emerging issue and have directed significant attention toward it in conjunction with efforts to curtail the smuggling of firearms. Examples of some of these collaborative efforts are detailed under the INITIATIVES section of this report.

The nature and scope of firearms trafficking, domestic and international, is beyond the investigative capacity of any one particular agency. In order to provide a more co-ordinated investigative effort in the Province of Ontario the Provincial Weapons Enforcement Unit (PWEU) was formed. This unit was established in 1994 to identify and take enforcement action against persons involved in the illegal movement of firearms, ammunition and explosives. The PWEU is comprised of forty-one representatives drawn from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ontario Provincial Police, Toronto Police Service, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and a number of other municipal police services in Ontario.

... In 1994, Criminal Intelligence Services of Ontario, in response to policing standards mandating that all police services in Ontario trace seized firearms not registered in Canada, created the Firearms Tracing and Enforcement Program (FATE). The purpose of this program is to identify the sources of illegal firearms and to provide an investigative tool to the police services of the Province in identifying potential firearm traffickers. The program operates through the PWEU and works in a voluntary partnership, called the Collateral Investigations Program, with the BATFE to identify and prosecute persons involved in the illegal movement and trafficking of crime guns. There is no formal agreement in place between the respective agencies for the tracing of firearms. This partnership has been very successful given that it is solely based on good will and a solid spirit of teamwork and public protection on both sides of the border.

The tracing of a firearm can be quite complex. In Canada a firearm can be traced to the last registered owner as recorded by the Canadian Firearms Registry System (CFRS). There is no requirement in the majority of American states to register firearms. Therefore, the BATFE rely upon access to records that may only identify the first retail purchaser of that firearm. Any transactions subsequent to the original retail purchase in the United States are extremely difficult to account for. Agents from the BATFE must spend countless hours conducting investigations, locating documents and interviewing persons in order to provide investigators in Ontario with trace information.

... This voluntary program utilizes the information obtained from the FATE Program to conduct collateral investigations between the U.S. BATFE, the PWEU and other law enforcement agencies in Ontario to aggressively pursue the sources of crime guns arriving in Ontario from the United States. These investigations have identified several patterns and trends, which identify the methods of obtaining crime guns in the United States and smuggling them into Canada. The following are some recent trends:

- United States resident receives a licence as a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL), lawfully acquires inexpensive firearms and then sells them for a large profit into the illicit crime gun market.

- Cross border truckers acquire firearms in the United States and smuggle them into Canada.

- Firearms are purchased at gun shows (secondary markets) in the United States and then smuggled into Canada.

- Canadian citizens obtain U.S. identification, purchase firearms and then smuggle them into Canada.

- STRAW purchases of firearms by U.S. residents, which are then smuggled into Canada. A STRAW purchase occurs when a person such as a convicted felon or a non-resident of the United States or one who is not otherwise entitled to lawfully purchase a firearm in the United States enlists the aid of a third party to lawfully purchase a firearm. This is done in order to conceal the identity of the true purchaser. Firearms so purchased are often smuggled into Canada.
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. It would be simple to disable a microchip on a firearm.
A couple thing that come to mind:

1. Remove the polymer parts, and place the rest of the firearm (unloaded of course) in an oven at 400F for 1 hour. Microwave the polymer parts for 1 minute.



2. Run household current through the firearm (unloaded of course)to ground.


Either one should destroy any data on a microchip.

I wouldn't recommend either method for disabling the microchip in your cat.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Eeeww!


I wouldn't recommend either method for disabling the microchip in your cat.

guffawing noises


I'll just have to make sure that Pig doesn't access this site when I'm not looking, or Eddie and Bouchée might be finding themselves in unmarked graves, now that Pig knew how to ensure they couldn't be identified. Can't expect Pig to know that they haven't actually been microchipped. ;)


For the rest, well, I guess we could assume that most people in unlawful possession of firearms, or at least people trafficking in them, anyhow (a bigger proportion of the problem where I'm at, where I'd say fewer firearms in illicit circulation were first acquired by bozos in casual thefts), are at least as smart as Pig.

Pig hasn't ever actually attempted the microwave, usually limiting his kitchen counter activities to stealing food, but if it occurred to him that he could dispose of the other two that way and avoid detection, he'd probably give it a go.



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_ManBearPig_ Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hey Wickerman
kiss my ass motherfucker
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. thats not polite
Edited on Tue Apr-01-08 11:37 AM by bossy22
and wow did he get tombstoned fast

DU moderators- working at the speed of light
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. no thanks
but I appreciate you further making my point.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Ah, yes faster than a speeding...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14.  ►►►


LAWN DART!!!!!


►►►

hahahahaha.

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sl8 Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. April Fool? (n/t)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. That has to be an April Fool's joke. Surely nobody would be so gullible
as to think a GPS system would be viable in a handgun at all, particularly at any rational price.

Yep, it's gotta be a joke. Look at the bill number...

HR4108 = 4/1/08
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